Choice of Rebels Part 1 WIP thread

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@FairyGodfeather As far as I can tell, your argument boils down to: “there is one true way to enjoy this game as the author intended it, and I don’t trust myself enough not to take the easy way out and miss it. I expect many others will do the same. Therefore an easy difficulty level should not exist.”

While I can’t speak for you, I can speak for myself, and there I disagree. Feeling a little less frustration in a game isn’t going to lessen my enjoyment of it. If the game feels too easy when I play the easy level, then that’s all the more motivation to play the normal difficulty level instead. In fact I usually go straight for the nightmare level when there is one, and the hard level when there isn’t a nightmare level. I generally only play on easier levels in subsequent games when I’m trying to get every possible ending, and I no longer have the time or the motivation to start from the beginning countless times to experience every option/ending.

There’s another reason why I suppose I’ve suggested a character that is a bit more gifted, something a bit more fundamental, and it boils down to we players tending to prefer to play characters that we can identify with more strongly. Why is it so important that there be female characters as well as male characters? gay characters as well as straight characters? It’s all about improving the ability of the player to identify with the protagonist, making the game feel more inclusive. And quite frankly, I don’t identify with a weakness in any of the three attributes in this game. (Now an inability to sing a tune, that I could identify with…) Sure I could play a character with a weakness in one of these three areas for a single play-through just to see how it goes, but I don’t have it in me to play this game multiple times with the same weakness, and it would be the play-through without weaknesses that burned most vividly in my imagination because I’d identify most strongly with it. I’d thus much rather the weakness be an option to increase the difficulty level than a necessity.

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I actually don’t agree with @P_Tigras ’ point about identifying with the character. I feel that a game or more importantly, a story should put you in the role of the protagonist and experience the setting through his or her eyes. In such a case, I believe the identification should only go so far as to make the character believable and not so obscure or foreign that the player can’t identify with him. There is a big difference between being a noble swordsman with a knack for military tactics and wanting to play as one. I remember distinctly that there was a wip (I forgot the name) a while back where you play as a female healer in a group of adventurers. I don’t think it got very far but what it had was very enjoyable. What I’m really concerned about is the lack of options for using your followers. I would like to see frequent options for utilizing the talents you have (or at least the game tells me I have), such as Breden’s charisma, Radmar’s fighting skills, or Elery’s strategic mind.

@Havenstone
I really enjoyed reading those prologues but the lack of impact it had on your stats and outlook (skepticism, etc.) left me a bit unsatisfied. Also, I think there’s some confusion from the way you named intellect and combat. I feel all three stats are actually components of a person’s intelligence. Charisma accounts for emotional intelligence and the ability to connect with people. “Intelligence” accounts for knowledge of history, religion, and science, and practise in using skills like mathematics and logic. “Combat” accounts for your physical fitness and prowess in combat sports like wrestling and swordsmanship, as well as tactical knowledge and intuition. Maybe a better name for “intelligence” could be “education”?

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I agree with @P_tigras…But I will offer another solution, Maybe when you play through the full game, you can ‘unlock’ this easy mode.

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I don’t want too much a easy mode, I want a hardcore one, more realistic and with penalty like girl noble start zero figh and helot one with zero education due not school . But I understand it was too much work . A easy mode is same doesn’t add enough value , in comparaison the work. Maybe a plus new play featuring a status boost?

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No, that’s not my argument. My argument is that it’s a story, and that the stats are a well integrated part of said story. That they’re an aspect of the underlying theme, and that by changing the balance, and just allowing you to have, say, all of the stats at 3, you change the nature of the story and it becomes something different.

Do you ask for other games to just let you have all the stats at their highest from the word go?

In fact, what’s the point of having stats at all? Wouldn’t the story be more fun without any stats and where you can choose any choices that you want? Where the story becomes everything and you have more freedom to tell the story you want to, be that Marajade’s noblewoman who’s never lifted anything larger and pointier than a sewing needle, or a character who’s a skilled fighter, an elegant speaker, and an intelligent theurge.

I will disagree that gay characters exist solely so that gay players might identify with them, and female characters solely so that women can identify with them. I think the reasons for inclusion are far more complex than that. I also don’t think that it’s a fair comparison to make.

I rarely identify with the skills, or with the weaknesses, of characters in games. I’ve never lifted a gun, yet Zombie Exodus has me shooting things. The jobs I can choose in the game aren’t jobs I’ve ever held. I’ve never been able to fly, or to shoot energy bolts, but I can do those in Heroes Rise. I do beta-test games, as did the Hero of Heroes Rise, but I can’t say that I felt that made us kindred spirits.

I think that there’s plenty of games out there where you are the gifted leader, where you are the chosen one who has things easy, who has all these powers and abilities.

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I agree with fairy in this one. Games dont have to be realistic and clearly you cant doing a character like you at all, less in a world with magic . Here is the first part of first game series Does Harry potter being perfect before enter in howards nope, in fact he wasnt a great mage ,except the expecto patronum the only spell he did better than hermione he isnt a great fighter and the charisma of a crying potato but he was getting some how better. Our character here is something similar… he or she its just a emo teenager who want fight for injustice because he she wants bang hardly a helot. In my case my character was totally high to even think in Breden that way.
In further chapters will see our character grow, better stats HAVE NOBLE BABIES ,patience guys.

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I see both sides of it and agree with Marajade that it comes down to time-benefit ratio. Would the easy-mode feature be valuable enough to invest the time? Game balance is a major factor. I’d really enjoy an easy mode but rather it not be coded if story suffers. For me, it’s a wish-list feature.

Having said that, I will probably use the idea in ZE2 :smiley:

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@FairyGodfeather I feel like we’re talking past each other. You feel I’ve misconstrued your position and I likewise feel that you’ve misconstrued mine. More fundamentally, we both have strong opinions on this issue and I don’t see much room for agreement. So I’m not seeing much advantage to continuing this further.

@Drezen I can get behind your suggestion. It approaches human ability from a different, but equally valid dimension, and by that I mean that a person’s abilities tend to be a combination of natural talent and how consistently and efficiently they’ve worked over an extensive period of time to refine them. Natural talent may mean you pick up Calculus & World History simply by listening attentively in lecture without the need to open up a textbook, giving you plenty of free time to invest or waste as you see fit. Now you could spend your afternoons snoozing, or you could work on improving your swordplay and reading von Clausewitz and Sun Tzu. Then in the evening you can get plastered with your friends, or you could learn to work the room for maximum advantage as you artfully nurse your drink without getting drunk. If on the other hand you’re not so talented at one of them, you can spend your evening working on your calculus homework, or on combat drills instead, whichever is more of a struggle, since you need that extra time to get the material down. Or you can drink your evening away and blow off two abilities. You may not have as much to show for your time, but at least you’ve had a fun time (minus all those hangovers). Being a total slacker/party animal with little in the way of natural talent could thus be equivalent to the Nightmare level since you start out totally unprepared for the game with not much to show for your misspent youth.

Note that I’m not suggesting that a player be able to have a perfect set of three 3’s in their ability scores. I’m only suggesting one additional ability point for an easy level. As some here are aware, I’ve mod’d my own copy of this game, and one mod I’ve added is the ability to pick the number of ability points I get. I’ve tried out having a perfect set of 3’s on a lark, and I can easily confirm that it makes for a boringly easy game. I have no interest in doing that again. A single additional point on the other hand certainly gives the player more options, and thus makes the game easier, but IMHO it doesn’t ruin the game. Personally, I found it more satisfying, even if it was easier.

@JimD That sounds very reasonable.

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@P_Tigras Well said. It would certainly determine more of the PC’s character, - which, I think, is integral to writing a successful story.

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Food for thought – thanks, @P_Tigras and @FairyGodfeather! I’ll consider easy-mode as an IAP. My intent is that when you get your first stat bump in Game 2, there should be meaningful advantages to any way you choose to play it: plug the gap of your greatest weakness (and thus avoid various disasters), keep specializing in your strength, or bring your “average” score up to become a second strength. There are also corresponding sacrifices, of course, which easy mode would partly circumvent.

Sorry, @idnlun, I hadn’t been planning to automatically raise your average score if you choose to keep specializing. Over the course of the Rebels saga, people who specialize in one stat to the point that they end up as Genghis, Merlin, or Buddha should have great glaring weaknesses in both their other stats.

Obviously, whether you specialise or generalise, you’ll need to make use of your genius followers’ skills in the areas where you’re weak or average. The work I’m currently doing on Ch 2 is in part to let you make more use of e.g. Breden’s charisma and Elery’s strategic gifts.

@hahaha, in the next version I post, your prologue choices will move your stats, but only very slightly – enough to give a sense of what the stats mean in practice, but not enough to outweigh the impact of your big defining choices in Ch 1. I see the point of the prologues as informing (rather than determining) the choice of what moves you most. For example, I wouldn’t want you to have to pick the “Carles the jongler” prologue if you want to maximize either your nationalism or cosmopolitanism.

I see your point that much of what’s captured in all three stats is “intelligence.” I deliberately picked “intellect” rather than intelligence as a stat name – there’s a meaningful difference between calling someone intelligent and calling them intellectual. I don’t think “education” quite captures what I’m going for (it implies formal teaching, whereas if you’re an intellectual helot, you’re largely self-taught), but I’m open to being convinced.

@MaraJade and @Jackrabbit, when you make your choice of stats in Ch 1, whatever you pick as your weakness drops to zero (and your strength rises to two). So Mara, I think you’d actually need a negative stat to give you death breath.

And you asked where a noble girl like you would learn to fight… had you picked combat as a strength, you’d know that the answer is “your Keriatou cousins’ blademaster.”

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@Havenstone, well whatever you decide I do hope you will release all of the content, including possible cheats, on Google as well. As I’ve said before I’m certainly willing to pay more up front for a premium version especially if what some of the others are saying is true and Google Chrome doesn’t support in-app purchases.
I’d also prefer a premium version to in-app purchases because I frankly don’t want to give my bank(ster) any more money then I have to and they charge a disproportionate amount on small transaction like COG game purchases.

Confounds, I may end up using the “cheat” mode after all, on the one hand I don’t want to loose my moderate charisma but on the other hand ending up as Merlin and possibly having a great magical duel with the thaumatarch and his heir(s) at the end does rather appeal to me.

I bet Simon’s special gift is cuteness and possibly being the literal blade on my character’s throat if he does turn out to be a spy.

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@Havestone in spain only train weapons allowed noble woman is a small dagger and they explain how suicide yourself to evite a rape or a dishonor. That’s it, but if you want a more pausible way to learn hunter, nobles couldn’t stop hunter due no tv, so my girl could shoot a crossbow but never use a giant sword ,lol. I see clearly a 1 point . A negative combat could be amazing! could choose your handicap like bad mouth smell, cripple bones, extreme ugly … that could be awesome! if there is a premium with hardcore mode I pay for it

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@idnlun, as it happens, you’ll meet the Thaumatarch’s heir well before the end of the series, and duelling them magically will be only one of the interesting options. :slight_smile:

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@Havenstone
I think self-teaching can count as a form of formal learning if it involves following instructions from books. I just feel that intelligence is a confusing term to use in this context. How about “learning” or “scholarship”? Um… “erudition”?

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For a moment, you found yourself choking on the volume of possibilities. Ever since your childhood encounter with the Theurge and his Plektoi, you’ve been learning to despise the Karagond Empire in very nearly all its works and ways.
Looks like a remnant. In this case I had the nationalistic opening (with the Jongler), so I never encountered that Theurge from the old opening.

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Thanks, will fix that!

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Here comes several weeks of frantic posting

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Late question, but the Empire of Halassur sounds pretty close ta the Kingdom of Halassar from Summoner 2…?

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Never heard of Summoner 2. Is it just the name or are the descriptions similar too? I’m not too bothered if it’s just a matter of us picking consonant syllables… That’s almost inevitable in fantasy.

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I hated that game