Sounds promising, thanks for the info!
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Sorry, no. The only way for Elton to be right is if returning the Wolf to Nin otherwise would require so much energy that it would permanently kill the land, which is never posited as an possibility, and even then you’d be better off delaying getting Nin the Wolf than letting the Fenris burn the barn.
Here’s why:
This means that Hog Throne concerts are 100% green power plants. By letting the Fenris set the barn on fire, you’re making Hog Throne concerts be perceived as less safe, and you’re endangering the very existence of Hog Throne concerts because they’ll be legally deemed unsafe and permanently shut down (y’know, again) - that’s why the Fenris notified the cops and the reporters, and why the cops are keeping the firetrucks at bay. Meaning you’re getting rid of the power plant. You’re effectively sacrificing a free eternal SOURCE of spiritual energy just so you can not spend some spiritual energy now.
This is killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. It’s a terrible move by literally every parameter other than “only immediate very short-term gain”, and I don’t know if Elton suggesting it is him desperately trying to make up for the three years during which he did absolutely jack shit or if he’s just that bad at long-term planning.
You are seriously overestimating the importance of Hog Throne concerts from a spiritual viewpoint. It’s, at most, a couple hundred humans having fun in a venue that keeps changing. It’d take a lot more humans over a much longer period of time all in the same location in order to produce a Caern. Keep in mind that Caerns are extremely rare.
At most, a Hog Throne concert may attract a couple of spirits for the duration of it.
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Sure, but your options regarding the fire aren’t Hog Throne for a caern. You can’t even REACH the caern. The caern is irrelevant for what’s going on here.
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You’re saying that Hog Throne concerts are “green power plants” but I’m telling you that’s a serious overestimation of them from a spiritual viewpoint. Humans don’t produce spiritual energy Garou can use.
Notice how neither Melodie nor Podge mention using Hog Throne as some sort of power plant. They just don’t want to risk people getting hurt or giving the Fenrir a victory.
I know Elton mentions “using the energy the cultists brought” but that doesn’t make sense from either the wider lore or even the scene within this specific game.
1-If Garou could harvest spiritual energy from humans, Caerns would become much less important since all werewolves would have to do is go to a religious celebration, for instance, and recharge their batteries there. Which they can’t. Now, humans can affect the Umbra, yes, but in different ways.
The only way Hog Throne could be used as a power plant would if they created a Caern. Which they won’t because they’re too small and transient.
2-The Fenrir don’t seem to be conducting any type of rite, they’re just setting fire to a rotting barn. Elton certainly isn’t carrying any ritual accroutments with him or setting them up to awaken the Wolf in Nin at the barn. He is just letting the Fenrir go ahead with their plan hoping it’ll make Nin angry enough she’ll Change.
So, the idea anyone is using any type of spiritual energy to conduct a Rite just doesn’t fly.
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But then Elton’s comment regarding all the gathered spiritual energy makes no sense. Maybe that was changed in this latest edition?
Bold of you to assume there’s a chance in hell I’m not getting my wolf-born girlfriend first thing. 
Presumably, this would be an issue because of the… I dunno, the essence? of the energy.
Man, I have been on a date with Nin, you don’t need fascists to do anything other than “exist near vulnerable people” to make her so angry that her Rage is like a sledgehammer.
But Elton specifically tells you it does. So either he’s right (maybe this was changed in the new edition, I dunno), in which case the fire is stupid, or he’s wrong, in which case I ALSO can’t trust him regarding the likelihood of the fire giving Nin back the Wolf, because these are related matters.
Wow, I decided to do a playthrough as a calculating Shadow Lord PC, with high hatred for Litany and high spirituality, and middling scores elsewhere (I’ll build the other convictions slowly). This PC is an enby who is romancing Nomi, and I must say that I absolutely adore the first date with Nomi so far! Podge makes you perform community service, Elton forces you to read a lot before having rough sex with you, Melodie stands around tensely trying to ward off admirers, but Nomi will drag you into weird hijinks as you infiltrate weddings and snoop into people’s business! I also discovered that Nomi’s uncle Paul disappeared while investigating Biosphere Zero? Does anyone remember interacting with the guy in Night Road? I just remember the attorney, the scientist, and the two reporters…and some dude named Texas. Also, omg, where are Nomi’s parents? They’re “a few years” younger to PC, and the oldest the PC can be at the start of the book is 19. So Nomi is a minor! Are they one of those emancipated minors I keep encountering in American media?
My shadow lord PC will, obviously, choose the Ride the Tiger ending. I feel like that’s definitely the superior ending except for people who are fond of Elton, which I am, but like, he’d understand, I’m sure. As would Katherine. Those two know what needs to be done in order to save the world, and I absolutely adore that. Or well, my Shadow Lordling PC will adore it, I’m sure. I was actually hoping to get that ending while romancing Elton, but I don’t think I have the nerve to do it. My PC is already facing a lot of dissonance, what with being nb in a binary world and having Native heritage but still wanting to seek out the tribe that killed so many of their people.
I also really liked the ending where we stop Eater of Names from destroying the cairn, since it seems like the safest, but I haven’t yet experienced the destroying the cairn ending. Perhaps my rage fuelled, anti-spiritual bone gnawer PC from the next playthrough can do it!
Also @MisterJB interesting! I’ll have to do more research on Gnosis and all those related things. I didn’t even know we were losing renown etc by performing the ritual. I guess that’s not so bad, since we have plenty of time to win it all back. But I did let the Cult burn down the barn in my playthrough as a Shadow Lordling and we managed to save everyone.
My favourite scene at the barn was where Elton thought Heinrik would help him evacuate the fleeing masses but Heinrik simply attacked him. My second most favourite scene was when a couple of the Drag Kings stole the cops’ car and started doing donuts with it while the angry cops chased them on foot. None of those (and several other) amazing scenes would even happen if we didn’t burn down the barn. Seriously @JBento, you gotta try it. Maybe in your fourteenth playthrough, if not now, but at some point you really gotta!
Edit:
Oh, good! I was a bit uncomfortable with the age gap between the two, especially after Nomi made a random joke about having sex with the PC, but this is fine! Have you attempted to romance Nin too? That’s a romance I’m not currently touching, unless we somehow get the option to play as a highly asexual PC who doesn’t even want to ogle Nin, let alone do anything unchaste with her. In the non-RO route, Nin really does come across as a child. Is it the same for if you romance her?
I mean, in the non RO route, Elton is obsessed with his dead wife, but once you start to successfully romance him, we learn things about their relationship that allows us a new perspective. And you just said that we discover Nomi is older than they look. So I guess that’s what I’m looking for with Nin’s maturity.
No, it’s actually established at some point that Nomi is a little older than they look, and definitely an adult.
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My point is this is all known NOW and out of character. From the Pc’s perspective at that time Elton is a sensible guy giving logic, explanations and counterpoints. At that moment, every single choice of dialogue points to Elton being right. Especially since everyone else is just arguing with insults and “Fenris bad!!” and nothing else. That’s already a huge red flag in any conflict or disagreement. Not only that, if we assume the Pc’s position based on what they know about spirits and all that, even as a Theurge, they don’t really interact with their spiritual side and they are a cub. They are barely seen by any spirits at all and beaver basically ignored them. An experienced Theurge whose helped you immensely in your investigations by getting you a place to stay, a phone and introducing you to other wolves is now saying “hey here’s a way we can use the cult’s plans to our benefit without digging ourselves into a deeper hole and potentially save any casualties”. Podge and Melodie don’t even have any points. Elton himself puts another nail in that coffin and talks about long term thinking to which Melodie, the wise silverfang philodox she is, simply says “Nope, Cult bad today and Cult bad tomorrow + I don’t want people dead, end of discussion” and its like…that doesn’t address anything elton says.
And as for character credibility. when we look at the data from graves farm we see Elton had to kill his wife. Thats a VERY good reason to be out of commission tbh. One I cant even fault him for. And as is standard for Melodie, once you disagree, she pulls rank, which doesn’t do well to inspire a sense of teamwork. Elton does the exact same thing if you disagree with him, but in that exact second our PC doesn’t know that.
Im not arguing whether Elton is objectively correct. Im asking how do you, as a player, rationalize your PC siding with Melodie and/or Podge with all your PC knows at that exact moment, from their perspective specifically?
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Honestly, I feel like it’s a case of a throwaway line that just doesn’t fit. After all, depending on the dialogue option you choose, Elton doesn’t speak about using energy, he just says they’ll use “the cultists.” Which you do by letting them piss off Nin enough that she Changes.
But, even if we were to accept the notion there’s Gnosis at Hog Throne to harness, you’d still need something for a rite to be happening. Either Elton or the Fenrir would have to be doing something, anything, ritual like for it to be harnessed. You can’t just…let it sit here and hope something mystical happens.
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Wait, seriously? The BLACK DUDE thinks the racial supremacist is going to do the right thing? This is a whole barrel of lol.
But it’s not, because he contradicts himself. Elton tells you he’s gonna make use of all the spiritual energy hanging around (which, apparently, he can’t? I dunno), so you already know that the Hog Throne concerts produce energy, and you do know that the Hog Throne only recently reopened after being closed over a bunch of concerns, including safety, which you know having it set on fire isn’t going to help.
Even from an utilitarian perspective (ew), you’re still making a bad move.
I sided with none of these people, because I got Nin first, so neither Mel nor Podge factored into it.
This is literally my first contact with W:tA, so I was working only out of the info that Elton himself provided me, and that info was, when mathed, “this is a bad move in any parameter other than very short-term gains”.
I’ll note that the Fenris have Dedekind with them, who could very conceivably be doing so, and she’s all sorts of bad mojo. Like, the Fenris are metaphorical Nazis, but Dedekind might be a literal one, considering she spits on Melodie’s face and has one of her lines cut off right before the slur hits.
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You mentioned making the concerts unsafe which is fair and the concerts producing energy, ok valid. What does that have to do with being reason to assert that Elton is wrong in this scenario? From a Utiliarian perspective, you’re getting your Ally the Wolf back at no cost to you personally AND can save a bunch of people in the process. Plus you have zero assurance that the ritual to bring back Nin’s wolf will even work by his words and wont screw you over long term by never recovering.
You made the concerts unsafe, unfortunate. But what else? Would your PC risk the lives of the spirits and basically further stress your diminished resources to make a concert safer for people? Utilitarian-wise, letting the barn burn is the better move long term AND short term because both Elton and the game make it clear you can stop any casualties.
He cant? How do we find that out pre-Hog throne? What reason do we have to believe that Elton cant use the energy? Plus he doesn’t always mention ‘energy’, sometimes he just says Use the Cultists.
Which means it was your Pc is alone and arguing with this established shadow lord theurge who, even if you hate the litany and pulling rank, objectively knows more than you do about all things spiritual and arguably Garou related as a whole. You have even less to stand on. How would you, who cant even talk to your old pack spirit or do anything about the barrows, Rosemary Street or the forest, have no tribe, no Gifts, and don’t even interact with your spiritual side argue against Elton on this spiritual matter? Plus this is the same guy that basically helped get you on your feet, (potentially kill the fomori for you), helped ensure you ate and had a place to stay plus a phone and, by extension via introducing you to Daphne, had a bank account.
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I agree. Within the larger scheme of things, the spiritual wellbeing of the land is more important than a band having a good concert.
Sure, it sucks you’re giving your enemy a victory but you’re getting one as well. And yours is, arguably, of greater value.
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Personally, I don’t think Nin comes across as a child. She does have a somewhat childlike quality because she, like a child, is still learning how to be a person - but that’s because she’s starting from a place of not being human at all. Her involvement in plot-relevant missions and investigations doesn’t come across as immature or lacking in sound judgment.
I actually haven’t romanced her yet, but I have my eye on her for the next time I play.
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Also, does it absolutely suck that the Fenrir in this game are, for the most part, Nazis because they absolutely were not in earlier editions.
I suspect this is due to Kyle Marquis beginning to write this book back when W5 was still in very early development because, in the W5 corebook, they opted for making the newly created Cult of Fenris apolitical beyond being extremist Garou who don’t care about consequences.
In fact, I further suspect that Alexios’ appearance later in the game is due to Kyle Marquis receiving updated notes because Alexios is much more in line the Fenrir as they appear in the finished W5 corebook.
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Because if the concerts produce energy, you’re better off in making sure the concerts are as popular as possible, so you can generate MORE energy, repeatedly.
Except you DO pay a cost, that cost being the future production of energy.
If you don’t let the fire start, everybody is 100% safe.
You also have zero assurance of the fire working.
If the land can never recover (a possibility that is not actually mentioned) from this, then you’re screwed anyway, because you’re going to have to counter not only the Fenris’s move but EVERYONE’s, forever, and even with the extra body of Nin you just don’t have the manpower to do that. Especially because the fire happening empowers the Fenris to make more and bigger moves, in the form of Huvud Development.
No, they don’t. They make it clear that you can try.
This established Shadow Lord theurge spent the last three years doing jack shit, and is so uncaring about the fire course of action that if you tell him it’s a bad idea his IMMEDIATE reaction is, “I guess, sure, we’ll do it your way, then.”
Nope. Other way around, Daphne is the one that sent him to find me.
Her takedown of Elton in the chat regarding her investigation of Esther’s is fucking EPIC.
Except Alexios isn’t a Fenris at all, he’s a Red Talon.
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But if the concerts produce spiritual energy, so will tons of other things. I mean, pop by the Church on Sundays or the local university. There’s nothing intrinsically special about Hog Throne. Shoot, back in older editions, a shopping mall would attract spirits of consummerism and capitalism.
Naturally, werewolves didn’t tend to get allong with spirits of rampant comsuption. The point is, human activity attracts spirits/produces energy. It doesn’t have to be the Hog Throne.
Was. He left them and joined the Cult.
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But the Hog Throne energy… type? is already aligned with the Garou’s goals (I presume - if it were not, Nin wouldn’t be such an ardent participant).
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At that point any concert would do so why specifically save this one?
See prior point, plus gaining Nin + the Nin’s wolf > a single concert
and there’s no guarantee Nin gets the Wolf in the first place too
We also have zero assurance of the rite working, As Elton states explicitly "“We pick a fight with the Cult of Fenris right here to stop them, which is probably worse than a fire. And then, if we survive, we hope that a thousand-year-old ritual is enough to help Nin? Because if it fails, the woods around the Caern will rot without a Child of Gaia to defend them. That’s your plan.”
As per Eltons exact words “There’s a rite,” Elton says. “A long, complicated, and expensive rite that will drain our land’s spiritual resources. We can conduct the rite, and hope it works, and that our damaged land can survive the drain, or we can use the energy that these idiot Cultists have already brought to Hog Throne and do something smart for once.”
Not sure if our Pc knows that at the time of making the decision but even if they do, they arent in a position to do anything about that anyways, with or without Nin
Just like we can try with the Rite. We can either take the guarantee to save the concert and a hope of helping Nin or the guarantee of saving Nin and the hope of saving the people. They are Garou, not civil servants, and there are bigger fish to fry.
he had to kill his own wife and has an insane sense of amnesia, lost his caern, cant even go back and is fighting something he barely understands. Surely there’s a bit of empathy you can have for him here. Plus if you say its a bad idea, what can he do But acquiesce? Is he supposed to fight you? He gave you all the logic on the onset of his idea and rebuttles once giving a counterpoint. After that what is he to do but bicker?
I see, ok, removes a slight bit on Eltons credibility but not enough to disregard his idea from the Pc’s perspective at that moment
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And I still think he has to be speaking metaphorically because, as soon as the fire starts, his focus is to save people. Which, good on him, but it does mean he is not conducting a ritual to restore the Wolf to Nin. He’s just hoping she gets pissed enough she’ll Change.
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