the black hand member could offer a better plan too ( if you do the right choices you can pass up that embarassment moment on your gangster career )
Iam the queen of pacifist routes. I achieve with Evil Gandhi Mara one of the most embarrassing defeats of Karagon ever without a battle. Zero martial skills Only 20 people against a flying blood mage and 3 pletoi mutants while a more than 400 professional army tried to caught me in the woods… I lost only 6 people and killed the mutants and the mage while remaining sneaky enough to the main army can’t find me and go away with the tail down. And all without order any violence except legitimate defense, no raids and free of speech…
After that, being a pacific soldier in mafia is a pice of cake
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Hey! I am not acquainted with the history of this era but I have ideas if they work in the setting - ex bodyguard in place of ex pinkerton and debt extortionist in place of prizefighter.
Also was looking at street racer for background ideas and I discovered that the racing sport actually originated during this period. Will we have any content related to that?
Finally will there be gambling?
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Both motorcycles and car racing took off - great call.
The car racing obviously lends itself to “rum running” or moonshine running … the only trouble I see here is our setting is urban mob and for the most part, the cars were still slow and unreliable … it wasn’t until Bonnie and Clyde era (after this one) that the car started to become viable for the majority of getaway vehicles… there were Duesenburgs and such but they were very rare and not really available unless you were top 1% (as seen in Great Gatsby)
I do like the idea of having both “mechanical” and perhaps “driving” skills though/
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Ah, I want one of those! However to do so on my mc’s legal income, as he is careful to try and match all of his rackets with legitimate business fronts, would either be very late in the game or something for a possible sequel. As, again, my mc is not going to be brought down by the damned IRS.
Like you say it is more something for a possible sequel, but getting involved in the racing sport (both organizing them legally and controlling the illegal gambling on them) is something my mc would certainly be interested in.
As an aside organizing both legal and illegal races would let my mc pick out particularly talented young drivers to either launch into racing stardom, while collecting significant management fees on their contracts (legal) or to recruit into his gang as the getaway drivers once that sort of racket becomes feasible in a possible sequel.
Great ideas though, almost ashamed it didn’t occur to me as I tend to like cute guys on bikes and in (super) cars.
Why choose? I say why not have both. 
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I am more interested in boys than cars 
But as @Eiwynn has said this is pretty previous all the car mayhem phase of moonshine.
@Vendetta what I will probably say it won’t be particularly commercial even if interesting. The social connection with Church and Italian in America in that period. I suppose you can’t due correctness but that societies have a wicked sense of religious belief and give money to it. A boy who joined the church and study then have a faith crisis is a valid argument to study. Many poor Italian and Spanish people join the Church not because of faith , just to help families or obtain studies.
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Just want to drop to say that I am looking forward to this. I heard good things about this and with being able to play as a Female MC, I am more than excited!
Always love stories set in days past!
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Prizefighter: A woman released from an insane asylum (asylums being a preferred storage in this time period for women who wouldn’t obey the menfolk in their lives). That said, the Paroled Convict’s stats just plain suck in play from what I remember, which may be part of the problem.
Ex-Pinkerton: Leave it as it is. Nobody wants to play the ex-cop because the ex-cop isn’t a particularly interesting background to most and because…ew, dat leadership. 
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Looking over my old beta notes this is true, maybe @Vendetta should consider just scrapping both of them as it would mean less work at least.
True, the more interesting kind of (ex)cops would have been a few rungs higher up the ladder, such as the detectives. Hmmm…maybe equalize them both to private eye? As in the kind of struggling free-lance detectives popularized by film noir? Although I suppose most noir depicts the late 1930’s to mid 1950’s, so it would be too late time period. Hmmm…this is hard.
If they are still very much the least enjoyable after the new public demo and beta maybe just cut them? 
Both backgrounds lack the “leet” fighting prowess of the soldier (or Black Hand guy, for those who do enjoy that role) and don’t really compensate for that by increased leadership, business skills or charisma, which are some of the things that make non-combat focused mc’s so much fun to play. IMHO far more so than just blasting your way through the game guns blazing, but that is just my personal take of course.
Well it’s Vendetta’s call and his developer time and effort on the line here, but it seems to me that the female roles of those may not have been written much beyond the public demo, so this would be the point to cut your losses while you can. Nobody likes cutting in their proverbial baby, which is why editors and publishers can and perhaps must be such, evil, evil people at times. Right @TSSL ? 
True, but do that and it would not be paired with a particularly interesting male role and for me at least the Black Hand member already has that problem versus his much more intriguing female assassin opposite.
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There’s going to be some classes that nobody likes. I see no reason not to keep the PC and EC (and their counterparts), they can just be at the back of the line for special scenarios.
Though I do think that an Asylum Inmate for women would be a bit of social commentary on the time - especially because a female PC is still an ex-Hellion, right? Different (and ultimately worse) treatment by laws founded in paternalism.
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No. I feel such a background detracts from @Vendetta 's goal in writing Vendetta. It is not to comment on the society of the day but to tell a story like the Godfather and Boardwalk Empire of an individual mobster of the day.
It has realism and realistic portrayals of the times within it but those aspects are always secondary to the game play and storytelling.
If Vendetta was to include things like Sanitariums with all their historical horror - it would actually derail the story and cause more disruption than he was looking to write
YMMV - on this aspect. This is my impression from what was said in the OP, the old feedback and what little was said on the new changes so far. So I might be totally of base 
Backgrounds are not classes - as a result, I actually see some being more popular than others but I don’t see any that will be disliked or that nobody likes. Especially if Bob continues to write as well as he has for the past few years.
That doesn’t mean that the backgrounds couldn’t be improved with better names, more individual tweaking (as is now being suggested) and perhaps refocusing - I also agree that there will be a line for expanded content but that is more a function of Vendetta’s wriing and his ability to produce that content.
Also, one thing:
How this even relates to historical fact is beyond me. Even as early as the 19th century street gangs of an earlier era in New York, females were a fact of gang life. Why their participation would entail a Sanatorium and a guy’s participation wouldn’t is something I do not make the connection with.
Different treatment by laws in this criminal situation is a valid scope of inquiry, no doubt, but these matters were not handled by the mental health system for women - the sentencing, prosecution and enforcement differences within the judicial/criminal system in regards to gender is both documented and studied, even as early as this story takes place.
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I’m so excited for the female roles. I read the original a while ago and enjoyed the accuracy with slang etc and I always enjoy the ones with more choice in regards to the mc’s profession and different ways to do the same thing.
edit: With the female roles I’m looking forward to being a burlesque dancer using her feminine wiles in order to get what she wants 
.
This is one where I would definitely play multiple times with different genders and different backgrounds.
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Maybe the problem with the Ex-Pinkerton background is that some people might be unfamiliar with the organization. I, as a non-american, had to google it.
Having opened Wikipedia, I read this:
During the labor strikes of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, businessmen hired the Pinkerton Agency to infiltrate unions, supply guards, keep strikers and suspected unionists out of factories, and recruit goon squads to intimidate workers.
The infiltrator/spy aspect of this sounds intriguing. It could also provide a different perspective on potential Union Organizer subplots.
In short, renaming it to Spy/Infiltrator or Private Eye might draw more people in.
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Private eye could be but The term spy in the mind of people are a totally different from what a pinkerton is. Moreover if you think in the time period this happens.
@Vendetta What i think is there should be a info dump choice at the mom of choose background where is explained each background meaning. That way names remain as historical accurate and people still know what they mean.
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Infiltrator might have less dramatic connotation, then.
In that period there is no infiltrators that sounds like Command and Conquer not like a godfather setting. A pinkerton is just a private eye that sometimes do shady corporate business still no spy and no commando behind lines.
There are corporate spies or infiltrators, which isn’t much different from this.
There is a Big difference in the time period we are talking about. There were no big corporations concept of infiltration, sabotage and most of copyright laws weren’t not defined yet. If you use term as spy or infiltrator people will assume modern concepts that are no longer representative of what is in the game the game is accurate.
Society has changed so much from the setting time of the game, that a well explanation of what stuff means here is required. Because a pinkerton is not James Bond or a fine coorporative copyright infringement thief. He is just a guy that disguise sometimes between union guys to destroy strikes.
Thanks guys, that was tremendously useful discussion to come back to (having been away for a whole day), especially in terms of weighing pros and cons and considering alternatives.
Mostly because (if / when I have the opportunity to expand our Grifter’s own story by elevating it to ‘Primary’ status – see Dev Blog #6) she would be able to start with a small group of acquaintances – actual gang members – who are her team of fellow grifters. She is their leader, and they are in the middle of a sting operation when news is received of Gina’s murder…
The current game description for Leadership is as follows:
This is a measure of your ability to command and control criminal underlings (collectively referred to as your Henchmen); to maintain their loyalty; to plan & coordinate their nefarious activities; and to pick the right person for the job in the first place. A poor leader will have to watch their back, or at the very least often double-check the reported earnings of their more opportunistic underlings.
This is unchanged. It’s not that I necessarily disagree with your reasoning, it’s more a question of overall game balance. It’s important to remember that in Vendetta, coglioni is as much about unarmed and armed close-combat as it is about mental and physical toughness.
The Veteran Soldier, while trained and experienced in brutal close-quarters fighting, would certainly be far more experienced at handling and firing weapons. He nevertheless counts among the top few for close combat, and his training / experience puts him a notch or two above almost everyone he will encounter in civilian life.
Conversely, our Black Hand member is all about unarmed or close-combat with the likes of brass knuckles, knives and blackjacks. It’s a daily fact of life for him, and has been for years. (He can also shoot pretty good, too, when the need arises!)
Identical to the Veteran Soldier’s. There is no starting Attributes difference at all between the various gender pairings. Where this may at first seem odd (e.g. very high Firearms skill for the Nurse) it is explained in her backstory – she has spent five years “out in the world” learning the hard facts of life since the death of Billy the Nose, and has only recently returned to the neighborhood.
Partly because he’s actually still only a small-time hustler (just don’t tell him that!) with aspirations of being a great political mover and shaker… one day, and partly because he recently splashed out on a nicer suit and a small firearm.
In reality, it’s yet again a game balancing thing – like the Union Organizer, the Political Bagman has a good sideline job, if you choose to pursue it. While it requires a ‘Free Time’ task and doesn’t pay brilliantly at the very start, it is cumulative throughout the game. The more time you are willing to spend actually being a Political Bagman (or Union Organizer), the more that ‘sideline’ job builds up in income – and potentially far greater than, say, the Black Hand’s equivalent ‘Free Time’ task (of shaking down lesser criminals for a share of their illicit gains).
This! (In answer to any other roles / skills / game balancing-related queries!)
Various types. In addition to operating certain gambling-related rackets there are also a few ways you can gamble yourself. Some ‘New Business Opportunities’, for example, are outright gambles – although you are always perceptive enough to be fully aware of this fact – and may result in significant losses, marginal gain, or fairly huge rewards for the amount risked.
One racket in particular (operating a ‘Layoff Bookie’) is similarly a weekly gamble and you can lose your entire investment / stake at a single stroke… or it could earn you big bucks. Most gambling rackets, however, always place the odds very firmly in your favor and you only ever make money from them.
Hit the nail on the head! And…
I thought about that when the original poll years ago (although I had to use an off-site web poll for that; we didn’t have the facility here back then) reflected similarly for the Ex-Convict and Ex-Police Officer… it’s why the Prizefighter (Ex-Con) and Ex-Pinkerton (Ex-Cop) results come as no great surprise!
The problem is not only the background titles themselves, but also in what most players perceive the most important Attributes to be.
What I did instead was to balance things behind the scenes more, giving the Ex-Con and Ex-Cop more specific advantages in particular situations. It won’t improve their popularity for most folk, but it will mean that those who do actually play them will notice and hopefully appreciate the subtle differences in gameplay / story.
My intention is to do something similar for the Prizefighter and Ex-Pinkerton (or whatever they end up being called!).
Definitely getting to the gist of the matter here. Most people are probably similarly unaware of just how extensive and popular women’s prizefighting actually was (although this may have had something to do with such bouts almost invariably being fought topless, but we won’t go there). Ergo…
PROPOSAL / POLL
Bearing in mind that the actual starting Character Attributes can’t / won’t be changing, I’m leaning towards renaming our Prizefighter The Enforcer and making our Ex-Pinkerton a Private Eye.
The Enforcer Intimidation (50), Awareness (45), Toughness (40), Firearms (35), Streetwise (30), Leadership (25), Contacts (20), Business (15), Persuasion (10).
This girl’s backstory would change drastically. Instead of heading into the prizefighting circuit she would join ‘Uncle Luigi’ (Chuck) at a fairly young age, not long after Billy the Nose is killed, to ‘learn the ropes’. Naturally, he’s delighted (some of his men, markedly less so) and he takes you under his wing. The distinct advantage of this role as one of his actual ‘enforcers’ in the protection and loansharking racket is that you would be much closer to “one day” taking over his operations than any other background role – male or female – would likely be. If you can pull it off.
Private Eye: Awareness (50), Streetwise (45), Firearms (40), Toughness (35), Intimidation (30), Persuasion (25), Contacts (20), Business (15), Leadership (10).
Not a million miles from the original Ex-Pinkerton idea (a private detective agency which had its own female operatives as early as the late 1800s), but – as astutely pointed out – likely to be much more familiar to more non-Americans without needing a google! Her actual backstory would likely still mention the Pinkerton Agency, in terms of initial training and early investigations, but she has since become a private detective in her old neighborhood – having been summoned home by Gina to help with a little problem she’s having… Our girl arrives home too late to help, but not too late to put her special talents to good use.
Her particular advantages in the game would be not only her legal / law-enforcement contacts but also her training and natural inclinations, in terms of having the best possible chance of uncovering the person(s) behind the Gina Vendetta story.
SO…
Would ‘The Enforcer’ be more appealing to you than ‘The Prizefighter’?
- Yes, I would find The Enforcer role more appealing.
- No, I feel that The Prizefighter role is more unique / interesting.
- Makes no real difference to me.
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voters
And would ‘Private Eye’ be a better title than the 'Ex-Pinkerton?
- Yes, I think Private Eye would be a better title for this role.
- No, Ex-Pinkerton is still more intriguing as a role title.
- Makes no real difference to me.
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voters
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I voted yes on changing the Ex-Pinkerton’s title because it feels like it’d appeal more to people who’ve never heard of the Pinkerton agency without actually needing to change anything.
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