@Arcania I’m glad you liked the stats! I wanted to make them straightforward and flavorful, and I made sure to stay away from more game-ey elements like gold and health points. My goal was to let the player really get into the story without letting them have to worry about how good their character was in a fight etc. Put into D&D terms…the focus is roleplaying over rollplaying! :-j
@Everyone Seeing you guys excited for the release is awesome! Since this is my first Hosted Game I really wasn’t sure how the logistics side of things would turn out, but everything has gone great so far! I don’t want to build expectations crazy high but I can tell you this much: if you’ve enjoyed what you’ve read thus far, you’ll definitely enjoy the rest.
This is obviously a really late suggestion, but I would actually prefer it if some of the stats weren’t opposed. Like I felt that I should be able to be logical AND emotional.
Also, I never really gave you a reply to your response to my feedback. xD Basically, I have to say that MCs don’t HAVE to be bland just because they aren’t set in stone. I used about 50 checks and several stats to make the MC have a personality of his own, that also fit in well with what the reader chose. Also, not wanting to shoot animals and not thinking that druids are worthless hippies doesn’t make me a Bella Swan type character…at all. And I don’t necessarily agree with many of the choices that I have in my works, but I put them there so different types of people could all have fun.
@Samuel_H_Young Alright, first I’ll address the animals and druids. I’ll go through my reasoning. From my perspective, the MC is a rustic, probably lower-middle class fellow/lass. His/Her father is a hunter, so it just makes a lot of sense that hunting would be something he/she’d be okay with. The option of being a vegetarian also makes no sense given this upbringing.
Druids hang out in communes and have a lot of alternative life-style choices going on that are naturally at odds with the MC’s more human/industrial worldview. The MC works at the forge at a relatively young age and takes on the responsibility of providing for another person–this work ethic combined with that austere upbringing lends itself to being against druids. In my mind, at least!
Bella Swan was a bit extreme as an example, but you definitely seem to have a good approach for providing a custom personality. With Fatehaven though, I have a snark probably in every paragraph and a ton of introspection that nearly breaks the 4th wall at times. This lends itself to a sort of base skeptical smart-ass personality for the MC. And I think folks really enjoy that sort of character, and I know I enjoy writing for that sort of character! My main point is that if I had to write for an MC with no certain base (if it were a variable), the words would not come out near so fast and the story would not be near so good.
As for a character being both logical AND emotional, everybody has facets of both in order to function of course! If your MC is emotional he/she is not witless; if the MC is logical he/she is not without feelings. The stats just represent what sort of aspect is displayed at particular moments. It’s flavor! I’d really just stress that Fatehaven isn’t about the stats, it’s about the story. And I’d hate for something as silly as a stat system to take away from the experience!
@MultipleChoice, your “MC being the least interesting character” comment rang true with me. My MC in my WiP is definitely more a blank slate personality-wise although the MC does have a set backstory, and I really struggle with how I (and more important, the readers) react to that. Writing the surrounding characters is so much more fun!
I really plan to disect FateHaven to analyze your approach of giving the MC a unique personality. And congrats on finishing your story!
*Edit* I moved to my PC so I can actually type more…
I’m thinking about, as a reader, which do I value more highly?
being able to picture myself as the MC and make the choices I would make if I were really in those situations, or
being swept away in an epic story where I get to affect the outcome but where my MC may do/say/think things I may not agree with?
I think both are valid and both have pros/cons. I suppose the perfect approach would be to blend both but as you said, I can’t imagine the amount of code to create such an “AI” type level of personalization.
@HornHeadFan Just thinking about a Fatehaven autopsy makes me nervous! I’m really glad you feel it’s worth a hard looking-over though. Finishing a story is never easy–at a certain point you just gotta let go and have faith and pride in what you’ve made, even if there’s blemishes here and there.
You’ve pointed out exactly the two approaches that every writer has to balance. I swear, writing these things is a balancing act in so many different ways! I think 1) is what most gamebook authors go for, but I think many folks undervalue the benefits of 2). There’s definitely a reader personal preference in there–some folks are just control freaks and would ideally want to decide every aspect down to whether or not the MC leaves the toilet seat up or down!
I don’t like that though. This tends to make for a purely reactionary character, and I am very much against those. I’m a fan of visual novels, and am all too accustomed to the blank slate protagonist. Often without a spine, this faceless highschool young man somehow attracts all manner of drama and beautiful girls! He is a reactionary character, and doesn’t have strong feelings towards any hobby or dream. He doesn’t initiate so much as he is swept up in actions of those with stronger personalities around him. I want to punch that guy!
That heavenly perfect blend…just ain’t feasible, or at least not reasonable to expect from an author. I guess my personal approach is “Make sure there’s a tone I like to write” and just have that permeate the crap out of my sentences.
In my next story I might set the base personality for the MC as “an experienced, pragmatic badass” and then have roughly different aspects of badassery for the reader to essentially choose from. “Duty, honor-bound badass”, “Sly, apathetic badass”, “Lecherous, sensualist badass”, “Violent, blood-thirsty badass” for example. This way I can set that strong tone as a veteran who knows his/her stuff throughout, and I can pair that with a more naive character (for example) and BAM! The story writes itself!
1) being able to picture myself as the MC and make the choices I would make if I were really in those situations, or
being swept away in an epic story where I get to affect the outcome but where my MC may do/say/think things I may not agree with?
Over three years on the forum, we’ve circled back to talking about this one a lot. I’ve been struck by just how many readers value 1 on a fundamental level. Or the variant of 1 where I’m not playing “me” but I have a strong vision for the character and it breaks my immersion when the protagonist suddenly does something opposed to my vision (cf everything ever written by poison_mara).
It’s not just what “gamebook authors go for” – it’s what a lot of readers come to gamebooks for in the first place. In this medium, they are coauthors of the main character. That’s the distinctive pleasure of a real RPG.
And like you say, MC, it’s a balance. No published CoG that I’m aware of has written either a completely generic hero or a completely fixed personality whose actions are the only things you choose. I’d say that even the ones that give the reader the most latitude tend to escape the passivity and reactiveness of a visual novel character by allowing the reader to choose what the MC feels strongly about and take plot-shaping action.
The more things you take out of player choice, the more you’re going to alienate what I believe is the biggest part of our reader base. You can win almost all of them back with a cracking plot/gameworld, which yours plainly is – but the cognitive dissonance will still have an impact.
You can also control expectations somewhat by your early framing of the character and genre – I don’t think anyone expected a loving, gentle personality option in NOLA is Burning, for example. I haven’t yet read Fatehaven so don’t know how clear the early game makes it that this is a character whose personality is substantially in place; the genre does you no favors here, as fantasy is the classic place where RPGs allow tremendous latitude to the reader/ player!
In my own game, I look at feedback of this sort as a chance to hear from my coauthors and reconsider whether everything in my vision of the main characters (I have different ones in mind for helot and aristocrat) is worth insisting on. How much does it matter to your story that the MC dislikes druids? If it does matter, can you give them a choice of why they dislike druids – rather than assume a set of values around forge and child-raising which may hold together better in your mind than your readers’?
@Havenstone Thank you for your experienced insight on this matter. I agree that the 1 variant is at the heart of the “I’m in the story!” aspect that makes choose-your-own-adventures so unique from traditional novels. It is very appealing to be able to romance dignitaries, shoot down mobsters or be a superpowered badass from a personal viewpoint. It’s very fantasy-fulfilling but requires reader immersion, no doubt about that!
Reader expectations are so crucial to set, and I’ll definitely keep frame in mind consciously soas to minimize that cognitive dissonance. But I’m also a firm believer in suspension of disbelief, and I believe if the reader is so wrapped up into the story he/she will feel that strong connection even if there are aspects of the MC that don’t align with him/herself. I can’t write with the fear of alienating any part of my audience at the back of my head, because then it becomes a lot less fun for me to write.
What is it that I’m looking for, when I pop open a choose-your-own-adventure game on my iphone? That’s a question that has a different answer for each person, so I can only really give mine. I’m not there for the stats or rpg elements–there’s shinier games with nice art and rule systems and even a Baldur’s Gate port out there these days! I’m there because I want to get swept up into a story, to grow attached to a character as I shape and guide him through his adventure. I think folks who are looking for that will find it with Fatehaven. That’s my hope, anyway! :)>-
I’ve really liked the humor and the fact that it can get serious at times. It has that blend of the two that only a few shows that I’ve watched have been able to capture.
Well, when you say you’re “not there for the RPG elements”… Heh. Don’t get me started on the travesty of “RPG” being reduced by video games and the more mechanistic tabletop players to mean “explore world–fight monsters–level up,” as opposed to shaping and guiding a character… which is precisely what RPG should mean!
(A year ago I saw D&D announce on Facebook that their next version “plans to embrace the concept of role-playing your character”… and in other news, the next season of Game of Thrones plans to embrace the concept of medieval faux-realism, and the next Halo game is looking seriously at the concept of blowing up aliens before running them over with a tank.)
I think for many, the point of an RPG is not just fantasy fulfillment – there are stories I hugely enjoy that have nothing to do with what I would do or want to do under the circumstances – but the chance to coauthor a story by shaping the protagonist. My growth as a D&D game master involved letting go of the idea that it was my story which I was letting others play through, and embracing their ability to take their characters in directions I wouldn’t have imagined.
Fatehaven will have an enthusiastic audience regardless. But it seems to me from what you’ve said that this is the point where – having done the writing, and being basically ready to publish – you might benefit from hearing where people have been snapped out of their suspension of disbelief by their character doing something that wasn’t in their vision, and seeing just how much effort it would be to adapt the code to allow for that interpretation.
@Havenstone I’ve tried to talk with MultipleChoice before quite a while ago on a few’a the game’s flaws, but their mind is set on it being not perfect, just a loose, easy thing for them to practice makin’ money in the future (or somethin’ like that as I recall). As far as I know, Fatehaven isn’t changin’ anytime soon.
Well, I’ve not read the game, and don’t know what I might consider its flaws. As an author who has to say No to lots of feedback myself, I’m sympathetic to MultipleChoice having a strong personal vision for the game and character. I’m just interested in the ways we manage the tension between being the authors of the story and engaging the reader with convincing opportunities to shape “their” character and the story.
@Bagelthief you’re a great editor, though you are putting words in my mouth. And I don’t appreciate that. Please recall when I first invited you to the private beta I asked for spelling/grammar and clarity errors. I was unwilling to make large-scale changes to cater to any single beta tester. I’d be willing to continue this conversation through PM’s.
Fatehaven isn’t perfect and won’t please everyone. But I am very glad I’ve been able to please so many others in the process.
@Havenstone I look forward to your opinion when the game is released!
With Fatehaven coming out in two(?) days, I have a few questions. They may have already been asked, if so, I apologize. I also want to say I cannot wait for this game and I will 100% be buying it!
1.) Will this be published by CoG or will you be going with HG?
2.) Is it going to be around the length of Tin Star, along with how customizable TS was? If so, that’s simply amazing! If not, I can’t wait to continue on with the amazing story I’ve read so far.
3.) About how much is the game going to cost? (this part doesn’t really matter to me, as I will be buying it no matter what.)
4.) Will this be a stand-alone game, or will be continuing our story later on?
5.) My last question is… How pumped are you to have this coming out in less than 48 hours?
1.) Fatehaven is a Hosted Game, the paperwork’s all done and finalized!
2.) I actually haven’t read Tin Star yet, but it is well-renowned for its length. This story won’t be that long, but a single playthrough of Fatehaven runs a little over 4 hours. I’m not sure what customization options Tin Star has, but Fatehaven has a fairly simple stats system that doesn’t really lend itself to fine-tuning.
3.) I’m actually in the dark about how much it’s going to cost as well. I’ll shoot an email to the powers that be and hopefully have that finalized! It’ll definitely be comparative to what the other games on this site go for, though I’m sorry I can’t give you an exact number. I’m also sorry for sounding like a politician with these answers!
4.) Fatehaven is a stand-alone game. There are endings at the end of the endings (…that’s confusing :|) that wrap up the fate of our dear hero based on your renown and morality. I’ve mentioned writer fatigue before, and I earnestly don’t think I could keep up the quality I expect out of myself for a direct series. I’m not ruling out the possibility of revisiting the Fatehaven universe in the future of course, though that would be from a different main character and adventure.
5.) I’m excited but also very scared. I’m my worst enemy in times like these! I may have 5+ pages of comments saying how much they love it, but that doesn’t help the jitters. I know the people here are a passionate bunch, and I hope I don’t disappoint them. I’ll be okay though. Nobody ever said creating content was easy! #:-S
May I ask what the word count for Fatehaven is? I’d imagine the time it takes to read through this would differ between play-throughs and individuals, so I’m curious about the specifics.
