I’m not entirely discounting that possibility. Just so you know.
Well then in the very worst case we’re back to making Harrowing a proportionally egalitarian lottery, if say 2% of helots need to be Harrowed they’re going to be joined for the first time ever by 2% of nobles, yeomen, merchants and clergy too. After all the current amount of young nobles the Hegemony currently, periodically wastes on its sham wars with Halassur have perfectly good blood for the Harrower too. Granted they won’t see it as honourable or prestigious but my mc wouldn’t care one iota about that.
It doesn’t need to look great it just needs to be (barely) doable when cutting all of the current wasteful expenditures. I think that certainly with the wards included there are a lot of wasteful expenditures that are most certainly not agriculture related that could be cut and perhaps replaced with techne first. Everything that can be thus cut is demand the blood tax no longer has to meet, so it can probably afford to be somewhat less efficient.
We’ll learn more once @Havenstone opens a thread for book 2 (hopefully) but it currently seems the subject experiencing strong emotions at the time of harvest somehow makes blood more potent. That being said maybe we can substitute the fear of death the Hegemony currently uses with ecstasy or something like that.
The undead might have also found a way to use their thoughts and emotions to directly power magic, without needing blood first, though whether that’s true and whether or not we can make them share that knowledge is anybody’s guess, but Havenstone’s at the moment.
Nothing can replace them. I’m still hoping they will come back sometime soon. @Ramidel has been a Leader for a while now - he’s not as noisy as I am though
So true (as your president is fond of saying), maybe that’s why I only just noticed now, of course he’s been here even longer than I am. I just never noticed before.
True that.
Pretty sure from all my previous discussions with him that “he” is how he preferred to be addressed.
Geez, it’s been over a year ago that we were trading silly, cheesy new year’s songs, still feels like yesterday. Oh well, tempus fugit, I suppose.
My MC would want some minimum standard of living for the rebellion’s own prisoners but would not shed many if any tears if such standards were not met by wherever certain prisoners were extradited. Consider it another layer of punishment beyond what the rebellion’s legal system would otherwise permit. Anyways, my MC would prefer that the future state’s own people handle rebuilding its infrastructure as much as possible.
Having more than one language with official status on international treaties seems to be just asking for trouble in the future. My MC would prefer one and only language for international treaties even if it is the language of the other parties to any treaties.
I would agree that food production currently seems to be the biggest long-term problem.
Yep. Unfortunately, “blood” isn’t just blood, as will become clear early in Game 2… So an Empire-wide blood tax/donation scheme would have to hit a much higher total volume to accomplish the same effects.
The element of the oil economy that I’m most interested in is the profound difficulty of changing it to something that doesn’t do the same damage; and that has to apply to the Karagond blood economy, too. If it could be solved as simply as Hegemony-wide blood drives, the only reason for the current system to persist would be pure demonic malice, which would make for a much less interesting rebellion. (It may be worth repeating again what I’ve said a couple times upthread: the theory that it’s pain/torture/terror of the victim which gives aetherial blood its power is wrong. That would take the metaphor in a direction which I think is less true to the real world challenges of e.g. the slave economy or the oil economy.)
It’s true that the choice between continuing to Harrow people and allowing thousands to starve or die in war is unlikely to be entirely escapable. In the current game, that choice between killing and allowing to die is already there, on a smaller scale.
One thing that does concern me about the eventual plot is the question of whether or not millions will be starving unless our MCs implement harrowing or something like it on our own. If the analogy is to switching off of fossil fuels, then while that requires a monetary price to be paid, it does not require large scale starvation and if anything large scale starvation will be the eventual result of failing to make the switch away from using fossil fuels. The technology for the switch already exists but that would mean powerful people lose money so guess what the result is…
The first book was my favorite as well.
I do find Radmar’s last name to be quite appropriate.
I personally am skeptical that there wouldn’t be a lot of aetherial blood spending that could be reduced without starvation. I don’t think the Hegemony would have spent aetherial blood for the sole purpose of growing more food to support an increasing population if the increased blood supply from an increased population was completely used up just growing the food. If there is still a shortage of food afterwards, then my MC would prefer to encourage emigration either to other nations or to newly founded colonies overseas along the lines of the British Empire and the Irish Potato Famine. And if that requires taking land by force, well that reduces the surplus population too though my MC would prefer at that point to focus on overseas governments that abused their people.
On a completely different note and in all seriousness, @Havenstone, I was wondering whether the Xaos lands have the equivalent of
from @WayWalkerLeigh’s Way Walkers University 2. I say in all seriousness because returning to the band with an innocuous pet Xaos creature could be an excellent way of showing the band that the Xaos lands are not inherently evil which would be a useful demonstration for MCs that want to convince their bands to move into the Xaos lands. It would also be another useful way of disproving the Hegemony’s religious lies.
To answer that probably requires knowing the state of non-blood powered techne of the kind that the Karagonds never let proliferate beyond their homelands.
As to the oil economy some of the first cars were already electric and somewhat effective ways to harness solar power have been available for a long time.
It is probably correct of you to say that even if the Hegemony might be sitting on a better or at least more ethical solution then the current Harrowings, like oil companies sitting on patents for renewable energy, such techniques are most likely to be at least somewhat less efficient and come with their own (profound) drawbacks.
Probably, just like in our world, it should be possible to pursue the (technological) paths not taken, but they were usually not taken for a reason, in the Hegemony’s case most likely because they deem the blood-cattle economy to be more efficient.
In terms of guns, the existence of theurgy is already forcing Havenstone’s world down to one path not taken historically, which would be the perfection of the air rifle, instead of gunpowder guns.
Yet we do it all the time in most of our bilateral treaties with the US, for example, both the Dutch and English versions are co-equal.
My mc’s preferred target, if he thinks he could risk it, would be Halassur itself, since they are already meddling to support his own enemies such as the Laconniers anyway.
And potentially make for a great, official, national animal.
While that is true, those people still represent resources that my mc would be opposed to just giving away in order to soothe some wounded pride from 500 or more years ago.
Are the “Undeads” a confirm malice or it was just another lie ? we already knew that the “demons” are just disfigured residents outside the ward ?
If there are really undeads, there must a reason why “they” can stay animated … there should be some sort of power source or Relics to drive them on… … under logical explanation, organic matters of any living beings should be decomposed after they deceased right? how is it even possible their bones and flesh remain attach anyway ?
So, for now, the story of undeads is only a bedtime story to scare us
Could be either I suppose. I’m leaning towards them being real though.
But speaking of power outside the wards there is a country sized battery of Chaos (Xaos?) magic(al energy) that might potentially be harnessed by us too. Though I’m sure that, like anything else it will come with its own drawbacks and tradeoffs, assuming it is possible for the mc to harness it at all.
Indeed, which is why I’ve long speculated they might know how to access magic through emotion or perhaps force of will alone, without needing to use blood. Whether or not the mc might be able to learn those secrets and what the drawbacks of those techniques are is anybody’s guess though.
Could it be “Souls” power ? well… there is always debate whether living beings have souls or spirits
so…when a living being deceased , perhaps the soul will escape from the vessel and this soul may be sort of energy to be harvest and energised even a corpse ?
I remember reading some tests were perform in the past, where they found that the weight of a human body will decrease the moment when this person pass away … and they deduce that the lost of weight is actually the weight of “soul” that escape the body
well…it was a good read, i don’t know how accurate was this test they perform m
I have no doubt that those different technological paths were avoided for a reason, but pure greed seems an entirely historically plausible reason such as favoring tetraethyl lead instead of ethyl alcohol as an additive in gasoline.
I apologize for forgetting that you are a lawyer. I had assumed that one version would be stated to prevail in the event of a conflict in interpretation between the versions in different languages, but if the real world can make it work, then so can the rebellion.
Do we actually know out-of-character that Halassur is supporting the Laconniers? It seems like it would be in Halassur’s interests to do so but I also assumed it was not impossible for the Laconniers to maybe have some leftover enchanted weapons from the old Shayardene monarchy.
@Havenstone On a different note, when the first game was still in development, I voiced the opinion that the real threat to an INT 2 MC at the end was not the Plektoi but the Theurges since without the Theurges around, the Plektoi could be disposed of using wisardry. At the time I had suggested rather than lifting and dropping a Plektos just holding its head in water using wisardry, but it occurred to me that doing so would mean fighting against the muscles of the creature and so it might be easier just to use wisardry to hold a metal bucket of water and its contents around the creature’s head. If available, a bucket of molasses would be even better to pin in place around the head of a Plektos. If the liquid is sufficiently sticky and viscous, then it won’t matter if the Plektos manages to destroy the bucket as the creature will suffocate anyway.
I don’t think we are going to have that much control over the situation. Civil war is messy and for millions to starve a blood deficit isn’t even necessary, but it certainly won’t help. The fourth harrowing and the theruges nearly empty bandoliers indicate to me that the blood supply is already tight. I am also not convinced there is a ton of waste in the blood economy. Even if there is most of the slack will be taken up to fight an existential war.
The alternative paths to therugy juice is gonna be the secret to success imo (or alternate harrowing selection models), and I’m sure it will come with its own costs and unintended consequences.
The fourth Harrowing indicates to my MC that the Hegemony is increasing its supply of aetherial blood. Our MCs do not know whether that increased supply is already being used or merely stockpiled. The nearly empty bandoliers of aetherial blood could just as easily indicate that the Hegemony is afraid of its own Theurges going rogue or otherwise losing their aetherial blood since we know at least two powerful Theurges (Sarcifer and Cerlota Viore) have done exactly that and Sarcifer apparently specifically targets those still loyal to the Hegemony.
But yes, @cascat07 I agree that millions could quite easily die of various causes in the course of this war. I commented on the XOR 1 WIP thread that:
according to the in-game world index’s history section, it took 80 years for the Hegemony to form so my MC is reluctantly expecting decades of warfare to topple the Hegemony even under the best of circumstances and this may coincidentally solve the problem of starvation because the population may be much smaller by the time the rebellion wins.
I guess I am more concerned with whether the rebellion will still be facing a Harrower vs starvation choice after the war ends.
There is a not insubstantial amount of evidence that the MC’s revolt was engineered by the Hegemony to create a blood windfall. While they may be stockpiling for a new campaign or something this seems like a fairly large gamble to increase or create a surplus. I think it is more likely that it is an act of desperation.
@Sneaks I think the wards are largely necessary, as is the blood fueled techne, and harvests to keep the society they have built running. The Hegemonic economy has grown into its potential. Could our society survive without electric power? Humans certainly can but our society would suffer badly or “reorganize.” They have a few prestige projects like floating palaces and offensive wars but my suspicion is they represent a small fraction of overall expenditures.
Considering that the revolt only occurred because of the MC’s actions (for those MCs stopping the Harrowing), I don’t see how credit could be given to the Hegemony for engineering it. The Hegemony does not need an excuse to Harrow as many helots as it wants and could do that anyway without bothering with a rebellion.
@cascat07 What would you consider to be the evidence of the revolt being engineered by the Hegemony?
Possibly. My personal suspicion is that aetherial blood for growing food cannot represent that large a percentage of aetherial blood usage because there would have been decreasing incentive to increase the population at all if most of the aetherial blood gained went mainly to growing food.
Horion’s rhapsody that small backwoods revolts (just like the yours and that’s why I ain’t stayin’ here) are an essential part of the Hegemonic order.
The MC’s own sinking realization that they have gathered all the Hegemony’s enemies in one convienent (turns out not so convient) location.
The behavior of the theruges during the battle and particularly the emphasis on capturing children should the MC lose the final battle.
More people is vital to increasing the blood supply though. Even if it is 60% overhead it is the only means to increase the size of the blood pie. I’d agree there is little to indicate the percentage tied up in crop production. I can stay unoequivally that 7 harvest a year is a minor miracle that can’t be replicated with modern tech for wheat at least.
This is true and greed and decadence, not to mention something fitting “better” into their religious narratives could very easily be the Hegemony’s reasons for not doing a particular thing either. The fact remains that, whatever their reasons for not doing something, switching over to it is still not going to be easy.
Well you have to be as accurate as possible with the translation and if anything does come to a head in court the judges get the unenviable task of trying to “reconcile” the two versions, but by and large we’ve been able to make it work and well nothing will ever be perfect.
Well Havenstone’s equivalent of Stingers remark, plus Carles’ behaviour in-game are big hints.
That the Halassurqs want to puppet their long lost “kin” in Nyral and annex and enslave Erezza to plunder its mineral resources for their own industrialisation, plus rendering Shayard a backwards, pastoral and entirely unindustrialised neighbour are just my speculations as to their strategic objectives, likely to be shared by my mc once he can look at some maps and put some things together in-game.
That depends, I still think upper-class decadence consumes a not insubstantial amount and then there are the plektoi and above all the wards. All potentially entirely wasteful spending that can be cut.
It wouldn’t be unprecedented, real-life nations have also often mistrusted certain elements of their military and they’d hardly send their best and brightest to a backwards, backwoods and primitive region like Rim-Square anyway, so it could also simply be that the theurges initially assigned there were not particularly good to begin with, so they may be under-resourced. This happens even in the US military at times, right @cascat07? And the US military is by far the richest and most well-resourced overall on the planet.
See, this is where we differ, most of the wards, by area, guard the coast and are more useful to keep the Hegemony’s slaves in then they are at keeping anybody out. Of course this is a big point of disagreement between us. But if the resident Tiger was right then the wards may be a self-defeating gamble whose demise is inevitable anyway due to their interplay with the Xaos-lands and storms in the long run.
I largely agree, I think most of it by far goes to the wards, because they need stronger and stronger wards, because the Xaos storms keep getting stronger, because the two may somehow be connected and it is very much possible the Xaos storms somehow leech energy from the wards. I think it is absolutely right though that there is little initiative to keep expanding the population to increase the blood supply if most of that then needs to go into agriculture to maintain the expanded population.
Our glass agriculture can manage about five for certain fruits and vegetables though. There are experiments with airponics, but that would massively increase the volume, if as succesful as hoped, rather than the number of harvests. Still there’s more than one way to skin a cat and if we can make a breakthrough that increases the volume, such as making marginal lands productive then the number of harvests can stay the same or even decrease.
I don’t think an overhead that large is very profitable, given all the other disadvantages and social pressures overpopulation is know to cause though.
My best guess, given the Hegemony’s love of decadence is between 20 to 50%, higher ratio’s don’t seem worth it given the other concerns that come with overpopulation.
OHMYGOD. I just finished this and I just can’t find the right words to describe how good this is! I plan on replaying this but before that, I want to know:
Is it possible that one of the NPC will be the leader of the rebellion instead of the MC?
Will we only find out who is the traitor on Part II or is it possible to root out who he/she is in this book?
In the games description, it says:
• Lead your outlaw band as a self-taught mage, a general, or a mystic priest
• Master the arcane magic of Theurgy and demolish the blood harvesters of the Hegemony
But how??? My MC is just an aristocrat with excellent combat skills.
UGH I CAN’T WAIT FOR THE SEQUEL IT IS DRIVING ME NUTS
well… there is always debate whether living beings have souls or spirits 
