No, he’d be willing to work with them if their interests align once again but other than that he sees no future for House Keriatou in his Kingdom. Hector will probably be executed and Calea would at best get away with her life but nothing else.
That could be one way to organise it, but he’d probably look for another alternate that didn’t outright bar them. Reynard is a theurge himself so it would be a bit hypocritical of him to form a Kingdom and exclude other Theurges from positions of power. Though I may switch to a CHA-focused MC if INT doesn’t prove capable of spreading the inner voice.
I discovered something that I believe is a continuity error: You can choose the Inner Voice path with a Cha of 0 - and you can take Charisma 0 after doing so. You need Cha 1 (and Breden as part of the rebellion at least through the Spring) for that.
It might be better to pick your mid stat before your ideology for this reason.
And a question: How much of the MC’s dialogue with Cerlota was directly harvested from the discussions in the other thread? Were you using us as your Lykeion?
Is it intentional that you can’t try to ally with Erjan and M’kyar without Jevahir? (Alya’s time is limited and she doesn’t see them as providing useful knowledge or resources.)
And you’ve thrown us optimizers into disarray with the option to Change ourselves for increased speed and dexterity, and made me wonder whether that’ll be worth as much as COM training. (Probably not, since you need INT3 to get that far and at that point you’re better off going deeper into Theurgy. Hm, maybe I could Plektize Simon a bit…)
Having had a discussion with Cerlota (second run) about Wisardry and Magia, I kind of wonder if at some point, simply calling it “Magic” and being a “Mage” would be an option for the skeptical, or otherwise wanting to reject the theological baggage attached to Theurgy and Goety. (In Book 1, that probably goes too far outside your education and worldview, but after some time with Cerlota…)
Speaking of, when you start adding more stats to Ch. 5, there should probably be a chance for a significant change in your skepticism meter when you learn about the nature of Theurgy and decide what you think about the revelations.
This is something I’d also be interested in. Nothing really satisfies the skeptical cosmopolitan, Theurge/Goete are too religious, Wisard is too provincial, and Egeite is literally something the MC just makes up. Be nice to be able to secularize magic.
Highly enjoyed the new chapter! I really liked the change of personality for the MC. In the first game you can seem incredibly confident, especially in interactions with your followers and with people like Horion. Then in the second game you’re out of your depth and traumatized from everything you’ve been through and it forces you to take a far more subdued role.
A few questions: I didn’t quite understand Nyrish society and their gender roles, do they have a concept of gender and Jev is just non-binary, or do they not have a strong concept of gender, but then why would Jev’s gender matter? I guess what I’m trying to say is, what does being non-binary mean in the context of Nyrish society?
Also wouldn’t Jev see being non-binary as some form of patriotic action? ie this is something that only exists in Nyr, and identifying this way makes me more Nyrish.
As for Halassurq, it seems as if part of their gender roles is that men seem to be near illiterate and women do a lot of the “scientific” roles. Yet Cerlota says that that their society is run entirely by men, so how does that square? Given that in most societies the most educated tend to be the people on top in the long run. And if Theurges are as mistreated as Cerlota says they are, have any of them ever considered a rebellion? It just seems like women would have the advantage in any civil war in this society, given that they can use magic while the men can’t.
The only thing I can think of for improvement is maybe some flavor text when you ride the camel for an MC that rode a horse before, esp a helot MC for whom riding a horse was an important experience. And I’d love to see more interactions between Cerlota and our companions, though that’s probably a nightmare to code. Kalt was upset when I bought Horion into the camp, but how does he feel about Cerlota?
Thanks again for the update, it really exceeded all expectations!
The power of magic derives from access to aetherial blood, which in this case is controlled by elite Halassurq men. Those elites would simply cut off the aetheriun supply, and any mage rebellion in that society would quickly run out of gas, so to speak.
Moreover, Halassurq soldiers are not like our pitiful rebels, they have been trained in counter-Theurgic maneuvers (you see some of this with Erjan in Sojourn.) Their elites would have Theurgic weapons themselves (they smuggle you a couple in Jailbreak openings!)
Ok, real Nyr hours, lets go. First up, Jev isn’t non-binary, they are non-trinary. Over time Nyrish society has adopted a three-part gender structure consisting of men, women, and androgynes. Jev rejects all three of these classifications, and exists either in the middle or outside of them, depending how you want to look at it.
Now, lets talk about gender in Nyrish society. First off, the Nyrs actually have a much stronger sense of gender than the rest of the Hegemony. Being descended from the Halassurqs as they are, they inherited a lot of the Halassurqs’ sense of what is a ‘mans’ or ‘womans’ work. Due to the hostile environment of Nyryal in the early days of its settlement, they discarded the strictures of Halassurq and allowed the best suited individual to perform the task best suited to them.
Relevant text:
Jev talk
“During those centuries we started a ritual that would have been unthinkable in Halassur. At age fifteen, a child is named after their most recently dead relative, no matter the sex, and starts taking on some of that relative’s most vital roles within the community.”
Your brow furrows. "So if your great-aunt rather than your grandfather had died closest to your fifteenth birthday, you'd be considered a woman?"
Jev shakes their head at once. "No, no. It's not about sex, it's about role. Maybe your great-aunt was one of the great hunters, or one of the great tailors, or one of the great talkers and tellers of jokes. Maybe she was known for her affection to the village’s children, or her conflict resolution, or her ability to hold her liquor. You can't take on [i]all[/i] those roles—though there are some wonderful jokes about people who try—but as long as you take on some, you've met your filial duty."
"All right."
*if natlreal < 50
It's fascinating, and you think you've almost understood it.
*if natlreal >= 50
It all seems decidedly odd and over-elaborate.
"And this truly helps people take the role that's most needed for family and tribe, like healer or huntmaster? What if the wrong relative died?"
"It got us past the biggest obstacle, which was the Halassur-like levels of shame if someone took on the roles of a different sex. Once we had our naming-ritual, the Nyr could pretend that anyone playing any unusual role was doing something essential for family and community." Jev shoots a relaxed grin at you. "All of which should now help you understand why in Nyryal, there’s no way to know from someone's name or role if they're male, female, or androgyne. If it's not clear from their clothes and hair, there’s no way to know besides asking them."
As Jev says, ‘it’s not about sex, it’s about role’. Because of this, gender expression became very fluid in Nyryal, as a man may appear to an outside observer like a woman doing woman’s work, but still be a man. Because of this, and because of the inherited Halassurq honor culture, asking about gender is considered rather rude in Nyrish society, and individuals can shift gender expression without much fuss. This culture creates an ideal environment for someone like Jev, who rejects all three of their culture’s traditional gender identities, to practice that rejection.
Ultimately, it’s not that gender doesn’t matter in Nyrish society, quite the opposite really. They have inherited many of their eastern cousin’s sensibilities, they are simply used to the idea of them being bucked. Gender seems to occupy their thoughts much more than say, a Shayardene, and is a rather touchy subject per Jev. It is simply that the idea of rejecting gender norms is well ingrained in Nyrish culture, a fact that Jev exploits to live their best life.
Jev is, in their own way, bucking Nyrish norms as well. Their agender identity is not something accounted for in the tripartite Nyrish system, and it is not something that only exists among Nyrs (indeed, after hearing about all this, the MC can go “Yo you can just say “screw gender”? That’s sick I want to do that.”) even if their expression is a Nyrish spin on the idea.
I would reject this assertion, especially in a society based on feudal aristocracy like seems to be the case in most of the XoR world. The people with the biggest armies stay on top, and in Halassurq that’s the men.
@Havenstone lmk if I got anything wrong regarding the Nyrs, that’s my best take from what we have in the text but I may have missed something in your intended vision.
It would make any mage rebellion harder, but far from impossible. I would assume that mages would be heavily regulated ie only allowed to take blood right before going into battle and searched pretty thoroughly afterwards. Still, it would surprise me if there were no history of attempted rebellions.
It would also be interesting to the MC, as they might want to focus on cutting off blood stores in a similar way, such as a coordinated attack on all blood stores in Shayard or something along those lines. I remember you have the option to focus on hitting supply lines in G1 but I don’t remember if there was anything there about cutting off Theurges from their blood supplies specifically.
Sure, but Cerlota says that in battle it’s almost always the side with the most Theurges that wins, implying that the Halassurq’s anti-Theurge weapons are just not good enough. How would they would hold off a mage rebellion that focused all it’s efforts on trying to get a hand on their blood stores?
I’m still not certain I understand. They have a strong idea of what a man’s role and what a woman’s role is, but effectively anybody can take any role because it helps the community survive. But gender expression still exists, and you can dress like a man, woman or androgyne, and that could be different from your birth sex? So it would be possible for someone to take on a man’s role, but dress as a woman, and identify as androgyne? In that case how does Jev buck Nyrish gender norms, if it’s normal to kind of mix and match? Or do you have to wear woman’s clothes if you do woman’s work and etc.?
It is a really fun segment in the game when you get to meet all the different ambassadors. I think Havenstone really does manage to make it feel like every society has their advantages and disadvantages, without there being a clear “good society” and “bad society”.
This seems to be the implication, however rather than “womens clothes” it’s “healers clothes”, with healer being a feminine occupation. Basically like if we attached a gender to scrubs.
Jev is taking elements of each gendered expression to create something outside of the normal system. They take cues from each, but identify with none, which is unusual for the Nyrs. Usually it’s a simple “I’m a man, but I’m also a healer, so sometimes I look girly, deal with it.”. Jev takes it a step beyond by intentionally blurring things, creating ambiguity on purpose.
I’ve been full time as my wife’s research assistant this week – PhD funding application went in on Friday-- but will try to catch up on questions on the thread at some point in the next couple days. Thanks, all, for your patience.
If I may expand upon this a little - I wouldn’t be surprised if the Nyr approach to gender is a little like ours in some ways, in that people don’t necessarily expect you to embody traditional gender roles, but they absolutely expect to be able to classify you in terms of them. So in our society, for example, a woman can be a girly girl (embracing the archetypal feminine) or a tomboy (rejecting the archetypal feminine), and nobody thinks she’s weird, even if they think one or the other is a superior way to be. Or she can adopt a combination of stereotypically feminine and masculine attributes, and that’s cool and edgy. But if she just does what she likes, defined by femininity neither in the breach nor in the observance, as if gender roles simply didn’t exist - that makes people uncomfortable. It almost matters more that they can classify you in terms of gender norms, than how well you actually conform to them.
Best wishes for you both in making that happen! I hope they get back to you soon so you can start making plans.
This is a good way to put it. You might read a female mechanic who wears a jumpsuit and cuts her hair short as masculine or even as a man in the right lighting, but they are still a woman. Jev is from a society where that sort of genderblend is very common, but what they are doing is more like taking a suit jacket and a pastel skirt and otherwise intentionally blending their gender expression as much as possible, daring the world to pick a gender for them. From how they point to specific elements of their look, and their gadfly tendencies, I think Jev has refined their look over the years for maximum genderfuckery (in a Nyrish context), while still having a cohesive and aesthetic style. Of course the effect is lost on the bumpkin MC, for whom the nuances of Nyrish dress mean absolutely nothing.
You’re assuming that the majority of Halassur’s women don’t buy into the system. They do, just as Erjan buys into a system where he’s obligated to marry heterosexually (though this is less burdensome on him than it is on Radmar, it’s still an obligation that he believes in). The majority of Halassurq magi believe that they have an important role in serving and defending the Empire, and are quite happy to oppress women who won’t toe the line. Especially their own daughters.
To bring in the New Year (and also the soon-to-be month’s anniversary of Stormwright), I wanted to share some soundtracks I’ve been listening to lately that I’ve been reminded of with some scenes in Stormwright, which I also want to highlight as some of the best pieces of individual writing this chapter. I encourage people to give them a listen:
That conversation with Ulbern...
I’d just have her know that her father’s alive. Tell her that I’m sorry she was raised never knowing me, and that it wasn’t by my choice. Tell her she does me proud, and even though the Wards will always keep us apart…if the Angels heed a helot’s prayer, she’s had one and will have one for every day I live.
Soft light emanates from every flake, pooling in the drifts and casting its shadowless luster into every crevice. For long minutes, you’re immersed in a view where nothing is dark, nothing sharp.
The countless dots and veins of bluish-white radiance form a starfield below your feet.
And as the dawn breeze blows over the plants, they sing: wordlessly but not randomly, in a complex harmony of deep hums and trilling descants, until with the sunrise the music swells into a world-filling diapason.
For long minutes the rain-birds circle each other in a stately gyre, trailing silver spray below them. Each pair soars high enough to catch a ray of the not-yet-risen sun, arch their long necks back, and open their beaks as if in a silent, joyous canticle. Then one by one the cloud-cranes fold their wings and plummet to earth. Flowering plants spring up in a huge circle around the splash of each impact.
The sunlight strengthens, steadily revealing more of the vast, impossible filigree. When the light at last directly touches the ground, the whole lattice resounds with a single pure, clear tone, like a chime struck by a hammer. The sound takes your breath away; it makes you want to sing and weep and collapse, all at once. Then with a muffled thunder the mountain crumbles and dissolves.
And lastly, as a palate cleanser, this is definitely a piece to accompany the deliberations over strategy back in Chapter 4 of Uprising.
Oh @Havenstone, speaking of all this gender stuff I think a transfem pc should have a reaction to being rejected by Cerlota because of their masculinity, at least internally. That sort of thing can hurt pretty bad, moreso than it might with a cis person. Additionally, when setting the notbinary variable for agender characters (notbinary 6), might a Devout MC not liken themselves to the genderless angels, rather than a generic creature of myth? I’m reminded of the Public Universal Friend (coincidentally also a radical preacher in a time of rebellion, like the MC may be) who claimed to be animated by a genderless spirit, and rejected any gendered name or pronouns on those grounds.
Thank you so much for finally finding the choice of words that I should have picked (the first time around, when discussing this particular topic)!
Framing the transfem PC x Cerlota dynamic in the context of the “Star Crossed Lovers”/“Unrequited Love” tropes is much more emotionally compelling (and far less awkward) than my previous “pragmatic trans” suggestion.
I’ve talked to Jev before talking to M’kyar, and picked the “personally resonates with me” dialogue option (while speaking with Jev).
However, I did not trigger the “talk to M’kyar about gender transitioning” scenario (that your screenshot indicated), instead only briefly pondering upon the “when/how can I transition?” topic during the “what is my true gender?” period of self-reflection.
Did I miss other opportunities to increase my score towards the “notbinary > 3” threshold?
What a cool analogy; I think you’re onto something here!
@Havenstone Latest Seracca transformation suggestion of the week (along with overlapping with yet another “non-empire building” G5 role):
Could an INT 6 MC transform themselves into an immortal sphinx (or sphinx-like creature), and then spend the rest of eternity hanging out in the Rim (or some other base of operations) to lounge around and serve as a dispenser of wisdom/advice?
(to any client who’s humble enough to ask and rich enough to pay the right fee, in a similar fashion to how Sherlock Holmes made a living as a “consulting detective”)
Alternatively, maybe G5 sphinx MC could follow in the footsteps of the original Greek mythology sphinx: guarding the entrance of Grand Shayard by requiring travelers to correctly answer a riddle (to be allowed passage).
(BTW @Havenstone this needs a pronoun swap from ‘I’ to ‘you’ before the choices start. Additionally I think it might be worth rearranging the numbers so that the genderfluid MC can ask about physical transition. Some genderfluid people go on hormones/get surgeries, and I believe your own Laj is genderfluid and uses Egye to swap things around from time to time. Also, and I believe you’ve said you are already looking at this, its pretty easy to miss this stuff if you don’t talk to Jev at each opportunity. Not a problem per se, but worth considering.)
notbinary > 3 means you are interested in changing your body alongside your presentation. If you chose one of the non-physically transitioning options it won’t come up with M’kyar
Both, according to the Thaumatarchy, but the scriptural concept refers plainly to the former, of which the latter is arguably a fulfillment.
Certainly the latter. We’ll see about Irduin.
[response redacted]
Different poisons, different sources, I think. You may be able to get poison in Grand Shayard.
Nope, it’s known that the ocean separates them all the way south.
Um, possibly, but I’m not sure I’m on track to write that as an actual option.
A Range is a territory held by a particular Gara’u, and into the Core of which other Seracca may come only with permission.
Yes… the egg isn’t quite pure elemental stone, but close to it.
In her late thirties.
Nope. And the MC doesn’t have access to enough of the relevant records even to form a theory on the basis of “hey, we have no mention whatsoever the Dead in this history from ~360 years before present, that’s odd.”
I think I’ll need to give that option, given the range of ways things can end in Irduin.
That will certainly be possible.
I was thinking more along the lines of what @idonotlikeusernames was positing earlier:
So no, not so woe-is-me.
We’ll see! I have a soft spot for faking-death plots, so quite possibly, but I also need to keep variation manageable. @apple is also right that it could be counterproductive for most “rebel leader” strategies.
Coastal Shayardenes identify themselves as very different from Erretsins despite their similar linguistic heritage. A Homelander can try to bring the nations together either on the basis of “let’s help each other free our respective nations from Karagond oppression!” or “we belong together because of our cultural affinity,” but will be perceived seen as somewhat more Cosmopolitan for arguing the latter. If you want to try for a strong and lasting union of nations, though, the latter project may be more fruitful.
It means that where people of that class across Shayard have heard of you, they’ve heard stories with a positive or negative spin. It doesn’t mean that they have (all or mostly) heard of you or support/oppose you yet.
AFAIR you’re right that this hasn’t been discussed before – at any rate, I don’t remember answering, “That’s not something I’m going to answer yet.”
I’ve talked elsewhere about how I don’t expect there to be massive leaps, though a high-INT character should be able to make one or two discoveries in one helpful direction or another.
Well, a lot of what I’d posted to the other thread was taken from the dialogue I’d already written for Cerlota. But yes, some of the questions the MC asks are obviously ones you the readers asked, and in those cases Cerlota’s responses will echo mine rather than vice versa.
Yes. I could see good reason for a MC to exclude either or both of the weird foreign powers, but if you’re trying to deepen your relationship with Halassur, it seemed to me there was nothing diplomatically to be gained by cold-shouldering their cousins with an existing relationship, which Erjan clearly values enough to keep it up despite the culture clash on gender. Alya can curtail the dialogue with Jev as briskly as possible to protect her (i.e. your, the reader’s) time, but I couldn’t really see grounds to exclude the Nyr if you’re not excluding one or both of the foreign “diplomats” as well.
Fair enough. Sure, we can do that.
Yes – one of the things that I didn’t get around to adding in Sojourn is a shift not just in the skepticism meter but in how sincerely you hold your religious identity (i.e. the “religion” stat which can shift from sincere faith into doubt or cynicism) on the basis of all you’ve learned and experienced in the Xaos-lands. That’ll be added in a future update.
The most educated class isn’t always at the top of the ruling pyramid. In Central Asia, for centuries there was a Persian-speaking class of literati who served as administrators to successive emperors–but, outside of Persia, they were very rarely the emperors themselves. That fell to the military leaders, mostly speakers of Turkic languages, who succeeded each other as conquerors and found the Persian-speaking educated class indispensable for administering what they’d conquered.
That’s not a perfect parallel for Halassur, of course; both Theurgy and the gendered nature of Halassur’s divisions alter the picture significantly! But it’s one of many historical examples of how the best-educated class is generally close to power but not always dominant. When the MC meets and talks to actual Halassurq women, they’ll get a better picture of the dynamics involved than either Erjan or Cerlota could provide.
I don’t think Sphinx will be on the list, no.
Finally, I’d just note that my first stab at implementing paths for trans and nb MCs is inevitably going to get things wrong, so please expect it to change as I listen and learn.
(Probably not, since you need INT3 to get that far and at that point you’re better off going deeper into Theurgy. Hm, maybe I could Plektize Simon a bit…)
