I also hope this will be an option. Obviously we wouldn’t be able to keep up the facade forever, but it would be pretty easy for one of our companions to let it slip in public that they heard from a trusted source the rebel leader was Changed/fell down a streel/was trampled by a camel during their time in the Xaos-Lands.
4 Likes
Honestly faking our deaths feels like it does more harm than good? Hegemony can spin it up as a propaganda W, and it’d have to be kept from the band so the truth doesn’t leak so their morale would drop a fair bit. I think playing it up like ‘Captain X is back in Shayard and no one knows where, they could strike anywhere!’ is a more effective move.
11 Likes
@Havenstone I want to ask what exactly the cred rep means. Does having a very high yeomanry cred means that most of the yeomanry around Rim Square supports you or that most of the yeomanry in Shayard as a whole supports you? Also what kind of effect will that have on the factions you can interact within Grand Shayard and other rebel groups?
My main aristo MC would agree with most of the broad strokes here, but I am curious how you plan on squaring an embrace of mass theurgy with the maintaince of a sharecropping system once the dust settles. Like you said, its a system ripe for abuse (I’m not familiar with the Irish example, but a similiar system was used in the post-civil war US south, to predictable results), and while still a major step up from helotry, it nonetheless preserves a similar economic relationship and power dynamic between them and the aristocracy.
Given that, what’s to stop a particularly bright farmer having a particularly bad day from ripping off his landlord’s head with magic? Long term, how do you plan on stopping that from sowing the seeds of a future theurgic peasant’s revolt?
2 Likes
Ultimately the answer is the same that kept armed peasant revolt from recurring too frequently. It’s very possible I think to keep ‘mass theurgy’ in some parts of the masses over others (i.e. those that can read). If you wanted to maintain a theoretically free underclass, keeping them illiterate is I’d think the most efficient way to do that. Combine that with ‘not being a massive dick’ as general policy for your landlord class, and you should keep theurgic revolt to a minimum (one here or there is kind of the cost of doing business in an exploitative system, but presumably you have some kind of law enforcement with their own theurgy who could quell that).
(Also, self-theurgy is decently limited, especially if the landlord is also a theurge and the revolters are limited to only self-theurgy, but the landlord might have access to aetherial blood.)
Yeeeeees, gooood. Embrace the destruction of the noble class.
6 Likes
I plan on having something like a bill of rights, where all citizens have equal rights and protections as the subjects of the King of Shayard (I may instead copy Napoleon and be titled King of the Shayardenes instead). This would create a legal framework for resolving disputes between citizens. If their rights are violated there would be a peaceful mechanism for resolving conflicts.
I would also establish an independent court system that would interpret and enforce the Kingdom’s laws. This would mean that disgruntled sharecroppers and tenant farmers could bring their cases before the courts and those nobles who abuse their powers would be punished with the full power of the Shayardene state.
To prevent the nobility from consolidating power and drafting laws that favour them I plan on creating a house of commons in the Shayardene Parliament. All of this may not be feasible during the lifetime of Reynard, but I hope to at least establish a written constitution and bill rights that can be built upon.
Finally, if these measures can’t prevent a peasant revolt or even a noble revolt, I hope to rely on a professional Shayardene army that will be maintained to aid the confederation against Halassurq. I also hope to reserve Theurgic knowledge of the First, Second and Third Kyklos exclusively to state-run schools. I’d have to learn more about the distinctions between the 3 circles to know if that’s reasonable or not but that’s my plan as of right now. This would hopefully give the state a qualitative advantage in any uprising.
Edit:
This has got me wondering if it’s gonna be worth the hassle to ally with the current nobility and bring them to my side. Why would they accept any of these terms? They stand to lose so much power in the system I’m proposing. I’d honestly be surprised if the Leaguers went along with this, though maybe we can keep our intentions hidden from them to build up the initial forces of the rebellion and once we’ve made enough allies outside of Shayard and among the yeomanry, helots, and merchants we can force the remaining nobles to acquiesce or face destruction.
3 Likes
Why teach the helots Theurgy at all? Only teach Theurgy to friendly aristocrats. Then the rightful order of Shayardene nobility will supplant the unnatural dominion of the Karagonds.
5 Likes
My mc certainly hopes not, there is no single group he despises more than those professional lie peddlers as they are the most visible agents upholding the caste system. And the Hegemony’s caste system must be torn out and destroyed root and branch.
1 Like
I agree with this 100%. Way more cons than pros. However I wouldn’t exactly be upset if it was an option (even if it was an option destined to fail.) I’m just having too much fun imagining the Hegemony boasting to its citizens they killed the great Captain X only to immediately turn back on themselves and explain “actually, we lied to you all, turns out they’re still alive after all”
1 Like
Can someone help the links not working 
And which people/institutions will be your tiebreaker(s)?
(during the (hopefully) rare times that the Eclect and de Syrnon monarch disagree on policy)
Because it would be a shame if nothing got accomplished while the Eclect and monarch get stuck in endless debate (or worse, stuck in a “no, I depose/excommunicate YOU!” loop, like the historical European monarchs and popes)
MC will at least still keep Koine around as a teachable language, right? (as a bare necessity for maintaining communications with the neighboring states)
And does rejecting Karagond rule extend to rejecting a circumstantial alliance with post-Hegemony (and severely humbled) Karagon?
You previously mentioned that your MC has an Olynna background, and it’s been speculated (on the Uprising thread) that Olynna and Phaedrx are part of the same compassion-focused Hegemony splinter faction.
If applicable, might Olynna’s potential vouching (for Phaedrx) be a powerful enough factor to convince your MC to give Phaedrx’s intentions the benefit of doubt?
Are you confident that you could spend more efficiently (to warrant lower taxes), or will a different social class/faction be forced to pick up a larger tax burden? (in place of the merchants)
As a Cosmo MC (who presumably triggered the 75% bonus), you (probably) got appointed as the clan chieftain/Oathholder of Korzsata, Bjel, and their fellow ex-Phalangite buddies.
If your MC is both Shayard’s monarch AND the (hypothetical future) High Chieftain of Wiendrj, you can control both Shayard and Wiendrj to exert a disproportionate “double vote” on the koinon.
And if you nominally split Shayard into Earlund and Brimlund (but retain control over both to rule a united Shayard in practice), boom: now we have a disproportionate triple vote!
If you can expose the Laconniers as Halassur lackeys (who are eager to enrich themselves at the expense of turning Shayard into a client satrapy of Halassur), that should be a good start in the campaign to discredit them.
With Shayard, Erezza, and Karagon as your koinon’s core members (who happen to share a common Xthonic faith), how’s this for a faction title (or informal nickname): the Holy Xthonic Belt! (or Holy Xthonic Coast)
I’d have to do more research into the early modern taxation, tariff and trade system and the limitations of the era to come up with a solid plan. I’d imagine something like a land value tax perhaps. Taxes on luxury goods as well. I’d definitely put a greater financial burden on the nobles near the end of the series though, once a wider/stronger support base has been established.
My MC definitely has no interest in ruling over Wiendrj. He doesn’t want to establish another Hegemony and he’d probably alienate Karagon, Nyryal and Erezza with such a blatant power grab. He’ll already have a massive hurdle to overcome by trying to reform the Xthonic faith in Shayard, Erezza, and Karagon and redistribute power in Shayard from the nobles to the commons.
I definitely won’t intentionally split Shayard, and when the split starts occurring, I’d do my best to prevent it from taking hold and mend the divisions. Perhaps I’d establish a new capital in Corlune. It’s more central and from my understanding is the economic hub of Shayard.
Yeah, propaganda is gonna be a strong tool in the battle over the hearts and minds of the populace. I’m excited to use the printing press!
Although in the beginning my MC is also gonna cooperate with Halassur, he won’t give them theurgic secrets but he definitely won’t turn down any help offered. If they aren’t helping us they’ll just help someone else. Also, so long as it doesn’t upset Cerlota and her fellow Erezzianos too much.
Maybe it could be called that informally but he wouldn’t want to publicise/support it since it would give a bad impression to the Nyrs and Wiends.
1 Like
New idea just come to mind (on how to divide and conquer the aristos).
Promise the highest performing (and most loyal) aristos partial tax amnesty, while also creating a reliable informant system (or co-opting the existing Kryptast network) to encourage the aristos to snitch on each other (in hopes of earning your MC’s favor).
But your MC will (probably) at least retain his original Game 1 smaller-scale clan chieftain role, right? (since a chieftain who’s been recognized/legitimized by Whends (despite being born in Shayard) has an extra edge at diplomacy with Whends)
Or might the Whendish clan chieftain title instead be viewed by your MC as a “pagan shackle” that detracts from the “genuinely devout Xthonist” reputation that he’s trying to build? (amongst his congregation/power base of worshippers)
I apologize if that was the impression my suggestions gave; I was earnestly trying to support your earlier idea about “being the dominant faction in the initial coalition to make sure MC’s vision can’t be warped by the other coalition members”.
Perhaps your “soft power” approach (of being the most charismatic Inner Voice prophet) may be more useful (than my “vote manipulation” ideas) in the long run at achieving the faction dominance you’re looking for.
FYI, Ramidel is a useful source of information/inspiration on the “crown-commons alliance” topic. 
By the way, which NPC do you imagine will make a fine queen consort for your “King of the Shayardenes” MC?
More specifically, which political advantage would you want your marriage alliance to achieve?
1- Mend (or proactively prevent) Shayard’s divisions (E.g. by marrying a Westriding aristo NPC),
2- Deepen ties with the Leaguers, and in general, deepen ties with the Southriding/coastal Shayard (E.g. marry Teren)
3- Deepen ties with one of the koinon’s non-Shayard member states (Wiendrj, Nyryal, and Erezza), but probably not Karagon (since you already mentioned not wanting to marry Phaedrx)
Or is my question moot, since your MC might instead prefer to follow his heart by marrying for love?
Hopefully, Havie will be able to include a “keep your friends (Erezza) close and enemies (Halassur) closer!” dialogue option in the foreseeable future!
(in the context of responding to Cerlota’s potential rebuke)
How’s this for a compromise: since competing political parties will (presumably) form in your confederation’s parliament/council, the Holy Xthonic Belt could simply be the informal title of your MC’s political party (rather than describing the entire koinon).
And by the way, what is your MC’s current plans for other factions/characters? (e.g. the Abhumans/Seracca, Sojourn, and the Unquiet Dead)
1 Like
Yep, my MC plans on offering those nobles who back and support him early on lands, titles and/or positions of influence in the new government. Especially Simon/Suzane, regardless of if they’re an RO.
Having a spy network is definitely gonna be essential. However, instead of outright encouraging them to rat each other out he’d probably place in servants and such as spies within their household or something like that for information gathering. I feel like that would be more subtle, leading to less resentment. When it comes to creating competition between the nobles he’d probably use concessions, privileges and his support instead.
Definitely. I plan on using that as a launching pad to further diplomacy and cooperation but ultimately I don’t want to exercise any political power over Wiendrj. Perhaps he’d have his clan members serve as bodyguards, and give them property to settle in and build a community.
My plan is no. But, in chapter 4 Korszata says something like “memory serve/guide you” and the MC’s reaction is that his cosmopolitan tendencies may be leading him into blasphemy/error. Perhaps, having grown up in such a religious society the MC can’t comprehend allowing religious freedoms as part of Xthonos’s order. My plan is to take options that grow that view as much as possible.
When it comes to his followers, he would want to preach patience, open dialogue and tolerance so that those who follow the Karagon Canon aren’t persecuted as heretics and present, in my opinion, a morally superior alternative to that which is preached by the current priests. If freedom to choose should be a right for his followers why shouldn’t it be a right for the Wiends, who the angels also guide? Who are they as mere mortals to comprehend the angels/Xthonos’s order enough to dictate it? That would probably be his rhetoric.
No need to apologise, just wanted to clarify my vision.
When it comes to the post-hegemonic confederation, he doesn’t want Shayard to outright dominate the confederacy to the point that they dictate all terms to other members. He aims on building a decentralised system where all 5 nations are equal and the primary purpose of the confederation is to promote economic activity/cooperation, and mutual defence.
He does however want to dominate the coalition that will be built to take down the hegemony. Which will most likely consist of cosmopolitan and compassionate (willing to do away with helotry) nobles, merchants, helots, yeoman, drudges, diakons, and similar classes of the other nations. He wants to be the foundation of the coalition and the main playmaker so that in the end he’s able to enforce his vision and the others will have to negotiate with him and not the other way around.
Thank you for sharing that. One issue I actually had with Ramidels guide was that I couldn’t get cred_p above 300. I’ve always donated 2,000 to the priests and not anything more. Now I’m gonna donate 8,000.
An example of the crown-common’s alliance against the nobility that I could think of would be the French revolution of 1789-1792. The King allied (albeit unwillingly) with the third estate to overthrow the nobility and establish a constitutional monarchy. Another one, and more appropriate for the time period, would be the glorious revolution of 1688.
Either Suzane or Teren.
Definitely number 2. The Leaguers are probably the only noble faction that my MC has a chance of allying with and I’d like to strengthen that alliance as much as possible. Also, the southriding and coastal lords are, from my understanding, much more powerful and influential and if allying with the leaguers brings them to my side then I’m all for it. I don’t know the exact divisions between Leaguers and Laconniers but from my understanding, the Laconniers are much more numerous.
For number 1 I don’t know a lot about the Earlund/Brimlund split and how it’s gonna play out. If it’s gonna mainly be an aristocratic lead movement or yeoman lead. I’d have to read more about it to understand it better. I hope the guaranteed rights and legal protections for all citizens would be enough to persuade those disgruntled by a lack of representation to stick with Shayard.
My MC’s main goal would be to consolidate his position in Shayard and add legitimacy to his rule. He’d rely on the shared experiences of the rebellion, similar Karagond culture/history and his personal relationship with those in power throughout his reign. Though if his kingdom survives and proves stable he would arrange political marriages for his children to deepen ties with the other states.
There could definitely be love in a political marriage. Though my MC would put his vision/dream before his personal feelings.
I mean it makes sense. A rebellion has to be pragmatic to survive, we’re in no position to refuse help and when the time comes for us to face the Halassurqs we will but for now, we need their help.
“There are no permanent enemies, and no permanent friends, only permanent interests”
Perhaps. I see Karagon, Erezza and Shayard cooperating a lot in the confederation and they’ll probably be the ones pushing for a more centralised and powerful federal government down the line.
My MC plans on building a peaceful and cooperative relationship with the Seracca but they’re definitely a peripheral interest. He’d like to learn more about the Seracca society and their mass theurgy to have a blueprint to build off of.
He plans on supporting and aiding Herne as much as possible. Not only will Sojourn distract hegemonic forces but it would bring law and order to the region allowing for trading with the Xaos-dwellers and perhaps colonisation by disenfranchised Shayardenes, deepening their ties with Shayard and the league.
I don’t know much about the Unquiet Dead. I’m pretty sure Havenstone has stated a white walker invasion won’t happen so I’m not too worried about them. Though I’ve read their overlord will take particular interest in the MC. Let’s see how it develops.
2 Likes
By the way, when using Theurgy, is it impossible to source energy by extracting energy from the execution of a criminal, or by extracting energy from killing an already dying sick person? It’s a bit totalitarian, but it seems like a more humane idea than massacring civilians.
1 Like
It’s really interesting to me how Breden is the only companion who refuses to leave when Cerlota is explaining how Theurgy works. Will Breden ever express interest in becoming a Theurge like Yebben? And will an INT mc be able to teach her (Even if not in G2, but later on in the series)? I’m sure this has been asked before, but I haven’t found a post about it in either forums.
1 Like
Both are possible, but neither would provide nearly enough to fuel the Hegemony’s needs. If you can find a way to vastly reduce blood expenditure though, the situation would be at least a little bit better.
(Although, many criminals already are Harrowed, and having a Harrower on standby for every dying person is simply not practical.)
2 Likes
Not to mention that having a Theurge handy for every death is way, way impractical.
And throwing terminally ill non-helots in with the next Harrowing is a real quick way to piss off the upper orders.
3 Likes
After additional pondering on the above observation, I wonder what might be the most prominent reason(s) for certain Nyrish factions to turn into 5th columnists.
1- Certain Nyrish minorities never truly embraced the (current) mainstream Nyrish culture of XoR’s present day era (gender equality/flexibility/fluidity, Skepticism), instead secretly finding comfort in their Halassurq roots
2- Those “certain Nyrish factions” are actually long-term spies (whom Halassurq has seeded over multiple generations in preparation for their eventual Game 4 takeover of Nyryal).
3- Rather than cultural affinity (or being a long-term spy), maybe certain Nyrs simply believe that Halassur will give Nyryal far greater economic benefits/trade deals than Karagon ever did. (particularly since the Hegemony’s current trade status quo has most of its wealth flowing through/towards the waterways and canals of Karagon and Shayard).
What are Caroline’s thoughts on my earlier suggested idea? (concerning how a “precursor Shayardene/Erezzan coastal empire” might be an interesting “alternative culture/mythology” to rally behind)
I’m glad your MC shares my MC’s vote of confidence (towards de Firiac).
Meanwhile FYI, the XoR crowd on Discord doesn’t seem to trust/like de Firiac very much. 
Does Reynard have any hope of poaching his Keriatou cousins (Hector, Calea) away from the Laconniers? (and then redeeming them into functional members of his new koinon)
Or have Hector and Calea committed too many unforgivable crimes against helots? (thus being totally undeserving of any form of second chance)
And FYI (if you’re looking for additional inspiration), on the Uprising thread, I previously discussed the possibility of punishment tiers (with regards to how my MC interacts with XoR’s old guard aristos).
Using foreigners (in your case, the Whendish clan members) as your royal/personal guard is actually an interesting idea which has “tried and tested” historical value.
E.g. the Varangian Guard: “The recruitment of distant foreigners from outside Byzantium to serve as the emperor’s personal guard was pursued as a deliberate policy, as they lacked local political loyalties and could be counted upon to suppress revolts by disloyal Byzantine factions.”
I think I’m beginning to finally grasp the key difference/nuance here; thanks for clarifying!
Do be mindful, however, that most of the Leaguers shared Horion’s dream of building a koinon (with Shayard as its dominant member), so let’s hope Reynard’s “incentives package” will be enough to get the Leaguers to reconsider and then comply with his “koinon of (genuine) equals” agenda.
Yeah, to quote Havie’s explanation (on the Uprising thread): “The Outer Rim has Laconniers and Loyalists, but the Leaguers are only a presence in better-connected parts of Shayard, especially its urban trading centers.”
And another relevant FYI: when I previously asked Havie about “how wealthy is the Leaguer’s starting position in Game 2?,” he answered: “Not especially, I’m afraid. The Archon spends primarily to shore up Loyalists, secondarily to keep some of the main Laconniers on side, and only then to win over the small faction of her troublesome cousins. Teren isn’t that close to the purse strings.”
By the way, does Reynard happen to agree with Cerlota’s stance? (that “Theurges should be excluded from formal office, thus being restricted to acting as advisors and executors of decisions made by the non-Theurgic authorities”)
If the theory (that Breden is actually a Laconnier spy with Kryptast training) turns out to be true, then perhaps Breden wishes to pass on Cerlota’s Theurgic secrets to her Laconnier handlers/masters (so that the Laconniers can start training their own corps of Wisards).
2 Likes
How far will the magic technology of this game series eventually progress?