so if you train with Sereccans, down the road you can have better plektoi and be a furry, what do we get as a book nerd on the other side of the coin, better harrowing? sounds like a rough deal.
Will we be able to transfer our safe from Book 1 or will you offer a predetermined path of choices or both?
We will be able to do both at the game’s release, but cannot import a save during playtesting.
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Blood in abundance–sure, but not for fertilizer! 
And the helots get back their sacrificed dead to honor the bodies. If the Hegemony (or any of its would-be successors) start trying systematically to use Harrowed corpses for bonemeal, they’ll learn that hard way that even a totalitarian state needs the passive consent of the governed.
The main discussion of this on the old thread started here, and I’d draw attention to this:
Yeah, there’s another incentive.
Definitely, though Bryce is right that (on my current thinking) it’s going to be more of a “win over this faction” dynamic rather than a “class-based” stat like the general cred ones.
To quote Horion: “The Theurges were very keen about one particular hillock where everything had transformed into something unpleasantly alchemical-smelling, and it wasn’t hard to see that this was why they were going to all the trouble of moving the Ward.”
There will definitely be fine dining in the coming chapters–but I’m going to hold off for now on committing to the details. That’s affected by the final world-building model I’m trying to hammer into shape right now… with my latitudes and geographic area updated with my last map, I’m making sure all my ideas roughly hold together on climate, agriculture, demographics, blood, and economics. The first two in particular will affect the diet of the provinces.
My own moral intuitions are with you on that point. At the same time, I don’t think only a “Chaotic Evil Race” (to use one of my least favorite D&D tropes) could end up baby-farming, and I’m glad that I haven’t yet completely shattered your suspension of disbelief in how I’ve written the Halassurqs.
I guess I was familiar with quite a bit of it.
I’m not sure that “urging people toward self-sacrifice” would show enough early promise as an anti-famine measure for even a high-CHA MC to conclude that all it lacks to be successful is their personal example. I can’t think of a real-world case where a genuine mass social movement (i.e. above “cult” scale) used the promise of heaven to persuade its members to proactively lay down their lives other than in war (and scaled-up war will be one famine-management option in the gameworld too). A compassionate and devout MC would I think be more likely in the end to be work determinedly toward finding non-Harrowing ways of mitigating the damage, rather than just volunteering to be first in the self-sacrifice queue.
Not a literal auditory phenomenon, no. The closest the game ever comes is this, in Ch 4:
[i]Sacrifice.[/i] Words you've heard dozens of times at Harrowings suddenly leap to mind, as vivid and strong as if they'd just been spoken into your ear. [i]Only through sacrifice can the world be preserved.[/i]
Not necessarily a waste, given than (a) the factions you’re interacting with may not know who you really are and (b) you can choose to interact with them to weaken and betray them, not just to bring them into your rebellion as an ally.
A bit of both? Yes, breaking up Shayard on national-cultural lines is possible; and that would involve making up a lot of identity/culture that has been destroyed over the past several centuries.
A blood economy, yep. Plus some tactics and techniques that are only feasible if you’re using refined blood. Becoming a furry will also have diplomatic consequences that won’t fit everyone’s playstyle.
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Will non-animalistic auto-plektosis carry the same stigma? For example just pumping up our body but staying, aesthetically, human.
Will we have the choice to reveal our identity within Grand Shayard (or Irduin ig)? Or is that simply too risky before the Wards come down?
Also a personal question, when we split in Chapter 10 for Wiendrj or the Westriding, will it still be possible to align with the missed group? For example if a Cosmopolitan, pro-yeoman anti-noble MC chooses to go through Wiendrj rather than the Westriding, will they still be able to onboard the Cabelites at some point or is that just a locked path from then on?
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No–visibly unnatural but still human Changes will carry a stigma, but not to the same degree as becoming Abhuman. And if you can “pass” there won’t be a stigma to it at all.
Yes, to particular people/groups, and publicly toward the end.
I expect it will be possible that e.g. when you meet the Cabelites later you’ll get along well with them even without spending Ch 10 with them – it’ll just be less likely, more dependent on particular stats and alliances, and with less chance to mitigate anything you’ve done that they don’t like.
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What will be the general ramifications of a Homelander Aristocrat having won Yeoman/Noble/Merchant support in Game 1, but having the Helots abhor you (cause you raided them every week for easy food)?
Will it put a restrictive upper limit on your rebellion, or can you find great success with elite and freeholder support alone?
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@Havenstone just thought of a fun bit of reactivity. Can an ace MC who romanced Breden and encouraged them to sleep with Ciels commiserate with Erjan and the Hallasurq tradition of spousal masks? I feel that’d be an interesting perspective and conversation for the two of them.
On another note, there is a serious lack of religious stuff in the Xaos-Lands. I understand it not coming up while you are in survival mode, but like the religion variable isn’t even checked once in Sojourn.
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Oh yeah, I don’t think they’re innately evil, just that their government is even more vile. We’ve all had evil leaders in the past.
So, with the release of the demo, I’ve been slowly getting back into the Choice of Rebels universe, and I’ve begun to try and solidify my vision for the future of the Hegemony and its people. I’d like to share my thoughts and see what everyone else thinks. Are there some things that you don’t think will be viable? Are there things you agree/disagree with? My main build is the aristocratic theurge posted by Ramidel, though I don’t play arrogantly, and I don’t execute Breden. My character, Reynard Seriatou, is compassionate, devout, and cosmopolitan.
My most important goals are to end mass harrowing and free helots everywhere in the hegemony, establish a voluntary league of equal nations over the hegemony’s current lands and reform the Xthonic religion to the Inner Voice.
The Xthonic religion and the Inner Voice
I choose to become a prophet of the common angelic voice because I want to promote equality and egalitarianism among the people, and it’s most in accordance with my own beliefs that anyone can receive guidance from God, you don’t need any intermediaries, and God created us all equally. If you want to change a country, you’d have to change the very fabric of society and reforming religion is a great way to get that change to stick. I’m not exactly sure how this new religion/sect is gonna look but I have some broad strokes of what I want. I plan to completely reform the Xthonic religion to the inner voice, focusing on Shayard, Erezza, and Karagon to stitch them together as the core of the new league. Wiendrj and Nyryal are welcome to their own beliefs. I hope to promote religious tolerance and encourage coexistence between different religious views and beliefs to prevent sectarianism and encourage open debate and dialogue among my followers instead of having people labelled heretics at the sign of some different interpretation. Hopefully, this would allow investigation into the original Shayardene Codex as well as the revisions done by the hegemony. I also plan on addressing corruption within the church (Is it a church?) by removing corrupt and abusive priests and officials. For example, those who refuse to discard harrowing and view helots as animals unworthy of compassion. Finally, I plan on giving autonomy to local congregations and allowing them to govern themselves, preventing the centralisation of power and promoting a decentralised, pluralistic, and participatory religious system. I hope all these changes together will support education and scholarship within the masses, encouraging them to study theology and critically examine the codex of liturgy and the canon. Maybe this more compassionate and less exploitative view towards the helotry will lead to conversion en masse among them, though if it doesn’t, I don’t plan on using force or coercion to convert them. They’re welcome to follow the Karagon Canon if they want to do so. Though, there won’t be any Alastors or Ecclesiast’s to shove it down their throat anymore.
What to do with the Nobles and Helots?
My plan with the helots was to break up the great estates and grant each family a plot of land for them to farm and earn a living off. However, I think this would just alienate the nobility as a whole and wouldn’t leave any room for compromise, turning them as a whole against me. Now I plan to turn them into tenant farmers without redistributing land. I plan on instituting sharecropping, rentals, and leaseholds instead. This would be far easier to implement in my opinion and would still greatly improve the rights of helots. I plan on instituting a carrot-and-stick approach to getting the nobility to accept this, tax breaks for those who go along with it, titles, positions in the new Shayardene government and confiscated lands for those who actively support my position. Those who refuse will be fined, those who stay loyal to the hegemony will have their lands confiscated and those who refuse amnesty will be executed. My hope with this is that it’ll create a more equitable system that over time causes the nobles to lose their power as their economic strength diminishes. I know this system can still be exploited, I remember something about the exploitation of Irish tenant farmers under Great Britain and how it contributed to the great potato famine. I hope to prevent that from occurring with the freed helots, but I’d have to do more research into the specifics of how to do that.
Secrets of Theurgy
I also plan on spreading the secrets of Theurgy and Aether as far and wide as possible. I want to have a nation of theurges, allowing for mass theurgy and hopefully innovations in the techniques of theurgy. Furthermore, revealing the truth of Harrowing and that Theurgy isn’t some special God-given power will be a massive blow to the legitimacy of the hegemony, doing much more to hurt it than military defeats could ever do. I want to reserve the higher levels of Theurgic knowledge for state schools and strictly regulate trained Theurge activity and conduct.
How to build a post-hegemonic order without mass harrowing?
However, one thing I struggle with is how to build a post-hegemonic order without harrowing.
I want to keep the great border wards up, especially along the Xaos-Lands and the Unquiet Dead as Xaos Storms would ravage the land preventing agriculture and stable order. The unquiet dead I’m not sure is a threat but it would suck if bringing down the Northern Border ward meant they launched an attack on the new confederation. Opening a new front for war is not something I want to do after overthrowing the hegemony and unless those guys can sail around the ward, I don’t think they’ll be an issue otherwise. I would prefer if the Halassurq border ward stayed up, but I don’t think it’s necessary. I’m sure we could hold them off without it, though it would be much more costly in terms of lives lost and resources spent. And finally, I’m fine with the abhuman border ward coming down as I plan on promoting cooperation and trade with them.
Then there’s the issue of the inevitable famine. It’s obvious that the current system is unsustainable and simply degrades the soil leading to more blood being required to keep up agricultural production. This system is going to collapse in on itself one way or another. Ending mass harrowing is just going to do it sooner. I don’t think I have a solution to the famine that’s likely to follow as without the large-scale aether extraction food production can’t be kept up. My only solutions to the famine are as follows. First, I plan on improving infrastructure. Investing in irrigation, to increase water availability for crops. Hopefully, mass theurgy would make construction easier and things like damns, canals, and wells could be built more efficiently. I’d also invest in more storage facilities and building road networks. I’d also encourage crop diversification, perhaps some seeds like the one we receive from the villagers could grow and thrive in Shayard allowing for the population to better feed itself, or maybe there are other crops out there that we don’t know about yet. Other than that, I don’t think trading for food is a viable option, the abhumans are less populated and probably can’t meet demand, and the Halassurqs probably won’t want to trade with us after we refuse to give up Erezzan territory and show that we’re ready to fight them for it.
It looks like a hopeless situation.
What about Shayard?
Finally, I’d like to discuss my vision for Shayard and the post-hegemonic league/confederation. In Shayard I want to establish a constitutional monarchy. From my understanding, Shayard and the Hegemony don’t have a pluralistic tradition, so it’ll be difficult to implement this from scratch. First, I’d like to explore Irduin and see how the old Shayardene system functioned, or what’s left of it, and how I could build upon it and reform it for adoption on a mass scale. Other than that, I plan on having Reynard proclaimed King of Shayard, with the monarch’s role limited to the executive branch of government. I’d like the monarch to be commander-in-chief of the Shayardene Military, to represent Shayard in diplomatic negotiations and official ceremonies/events, and to have the power to appoint officials, such as governors, judges, and officers. I’d like the monarch to have veto power over legislation (less than a two-thirds majority) as well as emergency powers in case of crisis. I’d like the parliament to have the power to draft laws, approve the annual budget, approve treaties, declare war and peace, override vetoes (more than a two-thirds majority), appoint officials, and approve/disapprove the Kings appointments. And finally, I would like a separate court system for interpreting laws and upholding justice. I’d like to have a system that’s inclusive of freed helots, yeoman, merchants, nobles and reformed priests, though I don’t know how to achieve that as of yet and will wait and see how the game develops.
My vision for the league as of right now is simply some form of mutual defence pact and economic integration. I want to think about it more as the series progresses. My most likely allies will be fellow cosmopolitans who see the benefit in keeping together the nations of the empire but under a fairer and more just system. I’m hoping the leaguers are like-minded but if they’re not I won’t worry too much about it.
Then there’s the question of how I’m going to pay for all this. Sheesh, this world is complex.
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Hey just like my main mc except for the angelic voice part mine went for Eclect mainly because at the time I didn’t know I could do it with 1 cha with Breden help. Which two groups are you going to forces on when chapter 7 comes?
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@Havenstone Along the theme of asking questions, a few scattered (but hopefully simple) ones:
Questions
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What’s Order Victorious? Is it just the Order of Xthonos (victorious over Xaos)? The Order of the Thaumatarchy?
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Will characters who begin to question and explore their gender identity in the Xaos-lands have opportunities to change their gender expression while laying low in Irduin and Grand Shayard?
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Roughly how old was the Keriatou nephew who was allegedly vanished by Kryptasts in Wolfbait’s prologue? Any chance of us seeing him again?
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Abelard can potentially poison the Keriatou guards, and Calea mentions the paralysing poison on her ring comes from an alchemist. Seeing as both the de Toman and Keriatou families have Laconnier connections, did they both get their poison from the same source? Any chance of us also getting our hands on some of that before or at Grand Shayard? For…reasons.
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Is there a known landbridge between the Halassurq and Seracca regions of the continent? I’m particularly looking at the Corsair’s Coast.
EDIT: The number of questions has ballooned slightly, as the edit log indicates, as a result of various thoughts percolating through outside conversations onto the forum:
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In Irduin, would our disguised social status (or at least some of them) be high enough for us to feasibly buy a horse, ostensibly for travel?
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Is the Range of Siet a mountain range or the rangeland of Siet (e.g. plains)?after some re-reading, it seems like Ranges are not necessarily either, but instead more of a cultural division. So instead, I’ll ask: -
Why does Cerlota call M’kyar “daughter of the plains”?
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The reddish-black stone of the boulder-egg has “stood up to many a Storm since the one that left it here”, while the adamantine black stone of the towers has stood “unscathed through centuries of Storms”: in a trance, “pure elemental stone”. Would there be similarities between the two if observed in trance?
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About how old is Chirex?
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Are there any known historical records about when the Unquiet Dead came into existence? (I weakly and circumstantially suspect that they may be around ~350 years old, but it’s a notable blind spot in our understanding of the gameworld’s history)
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I am actually curious just how many possible disguises there will be in Irduin, and their effects, but that may just have to wait until Chapter 6 comes out. On another note, will we be carrying our assumed identity from Irduin into Grand Shayard, or will we be reinventing ourselves twice? Or will it be up to the player whether or not to make a new fake identity?
Also, speaking of, will an MC who magically physically transitions be fully fertile as their chosen sex?
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E.g. wear bandages to pretend, “Oh no, woe is me, I’m a burn victim”?
Will faking our deaths (and then proceeding to rule our faction as low profile as possible) be a viable approach by Game 2’s end?
What’s your plan for mitigating the political fallout of integrating post-Hegemony Karagon into your envisioned koinon?
And how close of a relationship does Reynard plan on having with Phaedrx?
To quote Havie on the Uprising thread: “Marrying the Diadoch/e will definitely alienate a huge number of your followers, however you try to justify it; you would be trading much of whatever you’ve built up on your own for influence on Phaedrx’s faction.”
Does Reynard optimistically believe that he can fully integrate his non-Xthonic allies as member states of his koinon, or might he instead settle for “economic only unions/separate arrangements” with the nonbelievers?
Considering that Reynard’s Cosmo tendencies are at odds with the Laconnier’s “hard nationalism”, what’s Reynard’s tentative plan for getting the Laconniers to support his claim as “the lost de Syrnon heir”?
(Or will Reynard’s monarchy instead be entirely started from scratch as a new dynasty, one whose foundation is “right of conquest”)
And do you imagine that post-Hegemony Shayard will end up becoming the US-inspired military backbone of your koinon/NATO? (or are you instead optimistic that you can get all the member states to equally share the koinon’s military burden/power)
(Quoting the Uprising Thread) and many of them appreciate the Karagond language and culture that let them form strong connections across provincial bounds.
@Havenstone : Terminology-wise, does leveraging Shayard and Erezza’s shared coastal cultural values (to aid the process of uniting them in any sort of post-Hegemony arrangement) count as a Homelander or Cosmo strategy?
(Context: one of my MCs is looking for a way to unify Shayard and Erezza in a manner that completely disregards/washes our hands of Karagon’s language/culture, so in addition to his existing plan to leverage his credibility as Eclect (or Inner Voice prophet), he’s thinking that the rumored/reconstructed history of a “precursor Shayardene/Erezzan coastal empire” might be an interesting “alternative culture” to rally behind)
My gut is telling me that this overlaps with the “soft nationalists teaming up with each other” topic we discussed earlier, but since the fundamental definition of a Cosmo MC is to eagerly welcome foreign allies/cultures (beyond Shayard), the Cosmo label has a certain appeal as well.
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Definitely the nobles. I’m planning on partnering with the Leaguers. I’d have to see what the Lacconier vision for Shayard is, but if they’re unwilling to form a league with the other nations of the hegemony then I’ll focus on weakening and dividing them. With the Loyalists, I plan on seizing their properties and executing their leaders if I win so I’ll just focus on gathering intel and weakening them.
I’m not sure about my second group but it’s between the priesthood of the angels and the traders guild.
If I remember correctly, allying with the traditional priesthood would be essential for forming a continent-spanning empire but I plan on forming a decentralised league with at most a unified army and integrated economy. So having the majority of priests on my side won’t be as big of an issue.
I hope to ally with the secret heretics and spread the Inner Voice among them. I would like to have some priests who studied theology on my side so that they can spread the inner voice. Though from my understanding, the secret heretics are at most those who believe that the Karagond Canon is not the will of the angels and they may be totally opposed to the idea of the inner voice, so if I can’t gather any support with at least the secret heretics I won’t spend my time with the priesthood.
Instead, I’ll spend my time with the traders guild. My plan is to decrease restrictions on trade and promote an economic system within the league that’s fair to all members while keeping it a single market. Also, I want trading to be a viable option for freed helots and yeoman to improve their position in life and allow for some social mobility, they’ll also need the merchants guild to distribute their produced crops around the confederation. Basically, they’ll be essential for the post-hegemonic economy so it’ll be a good idea to ally with them early on.
Currently, I’m split between those two as of right now and will choose when more information is available.
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Within Shayard, she’d definitely try to balance the monarchy with the Eclect’s powers, but far more focus would be given in reversing the centuries of Karagonid rule on Shayard. Stuff like promoting Shayarin, ‘undoing’ as many of the Hegemony’s cultural effects as possible etc.
I think that any foreign contacts would be limited to making sure that no new Hegemony can rise in place of the old, so circumstantial alliances with the neighbouring states to prevent a new major power rising would be the extent of it.
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I guess for me the major design flaw is the desire for more individual liberty while also wanting a strong degree of social control. I suppose via the prophet inner voice path that influence might be possible. Most irl prophets were only so influential after their deaths!
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There’s definitely gonna be a lot of pushback from the Karagon people, especially the elites that have benefitted from the hegemony for the past 400 years. My plan is to first completely defeat and occupy Karagon, forcing an unconditional surrender. I hope to have a sizable support base in Karagon, especially among the helotry and the yeoman. I hope the merchants would support me because I’d do away with high taxes and restrictions on the purchase of land, raising them as the new elites within Karagon. Most nobles, theurges and priests will probably be killed in the fighting or executed for crimes against the helotry. This would hopefully leave a lot of land and resources available in Karagon which could be redistributed to its citizens.
My goal is to prevent the other members of my coalition from taking punitive vengeance on the citizenry of Karagon in order to foster goodwill between those left alive and the new confederation. I’d probably have the capital of the confederation be in Aekos as a sign of continuity with the hegemony but now as the meeting place of equals and not as the seat of the hegemony’s power. Maybe have it renamed. Basically, my plan is to crush the hegemony and wipe out its elites, allowing for a restructuring of Karagon and redistribution of power. I’ll think more about it and revise my strategy as the series progresses and I learn more but that’s my vision for now.
I don’t know much about Phaedrx other than that they’re the Thaumatarch’s heir. I don’t know what their vision is for the future of the hegemony but mine is that there mustn’t be a hegemony anymore. I don’t see myself allying with them, let alone marrying them. Right now my favourite RO is Suzane but I’d like to meet Teren before I choose one or the other.
He definitely believes that he can fully integrate them as member states of the Koinon. They’d have religious freedoms to choose what they want to practice so I don’t think that itself will be an issue. For Wiendrj I plan on supporting cosmopolitan factions in reunifying it and keeping it together after it splinters. My plan is to foster goodwill and cooperation with them and I hope that their reliance on my forces early on will mean they’ll be more willing to join my coalition against the hegemony and join the confederation afterwards. They’ll also struggle to feed themselves so if I can manage to feed Shayard I’d definitely distribute grain to allied factions.
With Nyryal, I’m not sure what Havenstones plan is for Nyryal but I’m basically hoping for the same thing. Support a cosmopolitan faction against the hegemony and rival factions, foster goodwill with them, distribute grain to them once I can feed Shayard and Wiendrj and hopefully have them join my coalition. I’d also appeal to defending against Halassurq as a common enemy. If Erezza falls, Shayard and Nyryal are next. United we have a chance
They’ll both be self-governing, at most I’d ask them to form a unified military and economic union under the confederation. But that may require a powerful central government which may not be feasible.
Yeah, I plan on creating a new dynasty from the right of conquest, support of the masses, as the prophet of the inner voice and with the acquiescence of the Leaguers, promising them a constitution that clearly defines the powers of the monarch and the nobility in the parliament.
I don’t plan on working with the Lacconiers. I hope to build the league on a shared imperial culture, history and language. From my understanding, the Lacconiers completely want to root out Karagond culture and practices from Shayard and that’s not something I support. I also imagine the De Syrnon pretender is gonna be a major rival to my faction, in Shayard at least.
I’m not 100% sure. In the beginning, it’ll be necessary to have a large and strong military in order to pacify the rest of Shayard while supporting like-minded rebellions in the other provinces. I would also like my faction to be the most dominant force in the initial coalition I build so that my vision can’t be warped by the other members.
However, I’m still not sure how much central power I want the confederations government to have. If building a strong central government is feasible I’d go for a unified military command, if it’s not I would go for a mutual defence pact, where in times of war the armies of the member-states are consolidated. In that scenario, I would want Shayard to have as strong a military as possible while encouraging Erezza and Karagon to do the same. I’d imagine the Wiends would also maintain a strong army so that they’re not reliant on the other member states in keeping the country together.
Do you mean trying to be prophet of the common angelic voice and King of Shayard at the same time? I’m hoping to limit the monarch and noble’s power in the Shayardene Kingdom by implementing laws and regulations that define and limit the government’s power to interfere with individual rights and freedoms. Such as freedom of speech, religion, the right to a fair trial and protection from unreasonable search and seizure. I think it can be successfully implemented in Shayard itself but probably not continent-wide.
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Yeah I mean you are basically trying to be an enlightened absolute monarch while also being Mohammad. This is not a foundation for strong liberal institutions unless you intend to use theurgy to also make a play at immortality.
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Yeah, you’re right. Most of the changes I envision will take several generations of work to come to fruition but the plan is to set up a strong foundation that can be built upon in the coming centuries. I may have to switch to a Charisma-focused character if I want to spread the Inner Voice and successfully build a wide and diverse coalition, but I’ll wait and see.
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