Choice of Rebels: Stormwright (XoR2 WIP)

Hmm. It’s worth considering, for sure.

My plan has been to open up all the specialisations to an INT 4 player. Giving them all at INT 3 feels a little like it would make INT overpowered compared to CHA 3 and COM 3. “The rest of you all get incremental improvements, but you can suddenly fly and heal and kill using your brain…”

Levitating is elemental Theurgy – playing with one of the simplest teloi, “fire go up.” By contrast, Aristotle and his successors struggled for centuries to make an adequate account of projectile motion, which is much more complex than the natural tendency of bodies to rise or fall. Not all first level Theurges have mastered impetus and learnt to fly – not by a long shot.

I’m going to finish writing the outcomes section, where the specialisations should all have a chance to show up again, before making a final call on this. Thanks for the well thought out proposal, though. Whether or not I go with it, it’s a good idea.

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I’d argue that what you’re learning at INT 3 in Stormwright isn’t a specialty (except for healing), it’s a neat special trick - something slightly beyond what First Kyklos is supposed to be able to do, but not out of range. And it should also be noted that at this level, you’re not yet learning to adopt a proper Theurgic specialty like you would at the Lykeion. You aren’t learning to do agricultural boosting, for example, or full-on plektosis, or any kind of science yet.

Honestly, my question would be how to justify learning the Seracca techniques at INT 4 if you didn’t study with the Seracca at any point. Do the Hegemony’s theurges learn those techniques at all?

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Yeah, it does seem like the way a Theurge changes/enhances themselves is different.

@Havenstone - On the stirring the pot with the yeomen playthrough I did yesterday, I was called out by the Alastor Captain, questioned by the Theurge, and outright approached by the Cabelites who said, “hey you work for de Serin don’t you?”. I think an MC in that situation should realize that there’s a pretty good chance that someone is going to try and arrest them and be working out what they’re going to do about it heading into the endgame.

If the Theurge shows up again and says “you’re under arrest because you’re part of the Rim Commotion and a traitor. We’re going to interrogate you and then slow harrow you” I don’t think Caroline’s reaction on that route should be:

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There are human Plektoi??? I don’t even wanna know

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How many options in Irduin are locked behind INT - but not Theurgy related? I personally view Theurgy for the MC as something of a sideshow. Theurgy is a “nice to have” which I feel may be distracting from the actual benefit of intelligence - imagining, evaluating, and making good decisions - in warfare and in everything else.

1 theurge, however potent, is not enough to win a war, or even a major battle, and obviously having Theurgy doesn’t make you wise. If Dwight D Eisenhower had had the ability to fly and throw fireballs it would have mattered exactly 0 - he literally never saw active combat. His strategic/organizational/logistical abilities are what counted.

I personally would like deduction, espionage, spy craft, playing both sides options tied to INT in Irduin (and beyond). Less interested in being Dr. Strange and more interested in being Varys/Littlefinger (or Touissant Louveture if you want to think more positively/militarily)

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Yeah, and even for the Theurgy part, the big difference maker is going to be how well the MC can train others and build up a coterie rather than their individual theurgic power. On the other hand, Theurgy is the one reason why Karagond dominates the continent and not Shayard so once it scales beyond the MC it will be really important.

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My impression is that each technique shares some core principles that might be common to all schools of magic, and the key difference comes from how each culture approaches those shared ideas.

Uncanny speed and dexterity.

Through weeks of reflection, you learn your body better than you’d ever thought you could know it—every joint and sinew, all named and described in detail by your teacher. You learn to discern the teloi of speed and precision in that dense interplay of physical purposes.

Plektasts and other biological Theurges might work the same in principle, while also violating countless Seracca taboos along the way. Cerlota describes the Seracca “auto-Plektoi” – that’s what their philosophy of magic looks like when projected onto Hegemonic ideology, even though Plektosis is utterly anathema to the Seracca way of life.

Maybe an entry-level Theurge could learn to strengthen their own body in a fight, but why would they? They can just learn to fly, and harden their robes, or break their enemy with blood magic itself. Something has already gone terribly wrong by the time a Theurge is in a fistfight.

Likewise, the apparent lack of flying Seracca wouldn’t be a lack of ability or even necessarily knowledge, but instead a difference in cultural priorities. Like how they don’t live in cities anymore.

Sharpened senses, especially smell.

M’kyar has you spend countless hours contemplating the functions of your senses—and not merely the ones with a visible sense organ, but your sense of balance, of location in space, of the passing of time. “These are the precious treasures we share with other spirits in animal form; and even an udud may learn to temporarily enhance their senses to the level of the beasts.”

Cerlota tells us about certain Theurges with dangerously sharp senses: Thaïs’s disciples among the Kryptasts, who “can hear what is whispered behind the thickest of walls”. That’s not so different from what we can do with sharpened senses in Irduin. Turns out Bernete was onto something.

But the context is entirely different. The same or similar enough magic takes on two distinct meanings after passing through the lens of two cultures.

I doubt our protagonists will be limited to just the one school of magic, or rather school of thought about magic. It’ll be a Theurgic education like no other, already exposed to both Hegemonic and Seracca philosophies, and also the unbridled runaway magic of the Xaos-storms, and all done while a fugitive from the law.


I haven’t come up with a good idea for this either, but it did make me notice something blindingly clear and possibly coincidental. I might be late in seeing it, but it’s surprisingly neat.

Maurs Stonewright being a crucial character in Stormwright, where the imagery of stone withstanding a storm is established, first with the boulder-egg we shelter in at the beginning of the story, and again with the black stone towers outside Vigil. Not to mention that Maurs is, like many Xaos-landers, maimed and forced to adapt to his new circumstances: in his case, by a stone, not a storm.

If we really stretch the imagination, those stone structures can be seen as a tough nut to crack, sheltering the metaphorical seeds of new life (living people in a Storm-ravaged land) within: like an acorn, which will survive even if the oak (the Chesnery, Maurs’s inn) is cut down (by the rebel Oakfell?) or burned or whatever happens to martyrs, then caught in a storm and scattered to seed new chesnaies in new lands.

So I guess what I mean to say is that Tamran Innkeep is a stonewright and an acorn.


Speaking of our chosen band lead, now that we’re meeting them face-to-face, there’s an opportunity here for some spicy teasing, with respect to

Elery and Yebben are both possible appointees to run the Whendward Band in our absence (and separately I wonder if you’d have been more restrictive in hindsight about who’d accept leadership if offered). Which means we get a chance to meet them again, as peers and near-equals at this point (they’ve led the rebellion for longer than we did) – which means a chance to take a second look at them and start to wonder

I doubt anything would come of it while we’re still separated in Irduin, but it could plant the seed of romance in a reader’s head. Choosing Elery or especially Yebben to lead the rebellion is already a sign that a reader might be interested in seeing more of them narratively, which might mean a higher propensity towards choosing them as ROs given the chance. It’d be a fitting time to start setting that up, with all the spicy drama that comes from pining after someone who’s trying to keep you both safe by keeping you far, far away.

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Every time that I upgrade my charisma, I know that I will be able to make larger coalitions, control my supporters more easily, etc. When I upgrade my combat, I know that will be able to defeat stronger opponents, directly counter problems more well, etc. But do intelect builds give any reliable advantage? I know that INT 6 gives the ability to make Wards, and that a Theurge MC can train Theurges without Cerlota’s help, but those are not reliable enough advantages when I rule half of Shayard from Corlune and am trying to pacify the Laconniers.

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Hello guide expert, is it only possible to get the pacifist achievement if you let everyone die at the start? Or does stopping the harrowing while sparing everybody, then avoiding any form of violence work as well?

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Stopping the Harrowing while sparing everybody also works

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Is it impossible to save Elery at the end as well? I care not for the lives of the unnamed children.

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Elery can end game alive. what do you mean by at the end. finale battle?

there is also unofficial discord of game where these kind of question will most likely get answered faster

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personally i think high int should help with administration of your empire. high int characters should make your empire more efficient, and also may invent new methods to improve existing infrastructure, trade , transportation. it also may help with democratic government’s. in xor world democracy is not wide spread so everything must be created from scratch so creating good democratic framework will be much easier with high int character then com or cha.

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NGL we’re already seeing how Int struggles hard without theurgy. If you want to learn anything in Irduin you need to constantly enhance your hearing and drain your blood, when Cha and Com have no similar resource management. That’s part of wh I suggested my little “buff”, it lets theurges feel “cool” more, and it lets them make more interesting choices with how they spend their blood than “do I eavesdrop today or not”.

Speaking of, the whole theurgic strain system is really illegible. I still don’t quite know how its supposed to work even looking under the hood, I think it could use a bit more tutorialization if its supposed to matter.

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Havie did expressly not intend for Int-without-theurgy to be a really possible route. That said, I definitely like the idea of more tutorialization on how theurgic strain works, especially now that you’re someone who should know your limits either through training, experience or both.

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It’s going to matter at the end. As noted above, pls read for narrative at the moment, not stats – the variables just aren’t in a place to do what they’re meant to do yet, definitely including theustrain.

As a stat, Intellect is centered on book-learning, memory, logic,, knowledge of context, and increasing mastery of the gameworld’s core technology. As I said many, many moons ago:

In addition to making Wards and personally training a mage corps, a player who like @11110 hopes to come up with transformative new ways of solving problems (Theurgic or non-Theurgic) will benefit from a high INT score in later games, as @maroder123 mentioned. This will hopefully help keep up somewhat with the huge advantages an epochally great general or charismatic leader enjoys in forging a new world order.

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i will say one thing that makes int look comparative weak is that We know that there are already existing characters alive who will be on same level or even better in best case scenario. so at max int can be one of best. while very high com or cha are more unique in world and they have less competition. these is reason why i support buffing theurges they are cool yes but they are not that strong at least yet.

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I think (with no offense intended, of course) this may not be the right way to go about it.

I can see how INT will be strong in the later games when it’s time to state-build and deal with the more complex questions of the setting, but the reality is that to get to those games, you will need to pass through Uprising, Stormwright, and Metropolis. The player is being asked to push through three games where they feel inadequate and there is a much lower threshold for failure, while having to tide themselves over with the promise of future benefits they can’t really look at.

And there is, of course, the fact that games build upon games. I have no doubts you’ll give INT players cool stuff to do later on - but COM and CHA are strong now, and that allows them to collect and gather advantages/goodies for the future - making them feel like they’re succeeding and having avenues to which they can resort on in the future.

Unless the plan for INT is to drastically surpass the other two stats when it comes to the state-building process, which I doubt is the plan, since that would be kind of poor balancing, then the promise here is that INT-build characters will take much longer to come online, while lacking the ability to “stack up”, which are a basic block of long-running series.

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No offense taken, of course-- always grateful for your (singular and plural) perceptions and advice. :slight_smile:

I can’t help noticing that in the space of a week, we’ve gone from readers asking why I made INT the obviously dominant stat for Game 2 to readers worrying that INT won’t come into its own until Game 6. :upside_down_face:

Now: I’m not actually a devoted enough player of my own game to be able to confirm that INT builds through G1 are harder to optimize for the really challenging outcome combos. (Let me pause to say that the fact that a community of such players does exist will be a source of astonished joy for the rest of my life.)

What I can say is that I think I wrote a rich enough G1 story for INT players, with enough successes and distinctive moments, to make most readers not regret exploring a G1 INT pathway – even if it’s not perfectly balanced with the other major stats.

That will continue to be my goal for each game, not just the series as a whole. In these early games, where winning a skirmish or encounter is more important than it will be later on, I feel like it shouldn’t be hard to make sure that a Theurge path has plenty of rewarding and distinctive scenes.

I think it’ll be a little harder for a Theurge to shine in the late series just by being able to fly and kill people with their minds, which is why I’m keeping a corner of my mind on what the balance then will look like. But my intent isn’t to have INT (or any stat) feel like a clearly suboptimal approach until then.

Will the stats be perfectly balanced? Definitely not; that’s impossible with the kind of emergent complexity I aim to write. Will there be satisfying and rich pathways down each major stat path? That’s certainly my intent.

And while I welcome feedback on how well I’m achieving that intent at any stage, I’m going to take it with a fairly sizeable grain of salt until we’re talking about the whole Game 2. :slight_smile:

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To be fair, I think there was only one person on that team :stuck_out_tongue:

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