Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven -- set for release 10/28/16

A couple of thoughts concerning skills and point allocation:

  1. We only have the introduction so far, ZE stories are complex and long enough that as they develop different skills will be used for different purposes.

  2. If too many points are awarded, you end up with skill deflation - a situation where you avoid making a choice of skills by getting everything you wanted by just waiting. Important choices become non-essential in the long run.

  3. Part of the replayablity is the large number of skill sets available. We don’t see it with just the beginning available but as the story grows we should have more opportunities to use different sets of skills.

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If there is an option to create traps to catch animals shouldn’t it be possible to craft some sort of improvised garden? Specially if your a vegetarian since scavenging can’t sustain you.

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@Zolataya

Regarding numbers one and three, that’s a fair point, but I think it’s important to remember that the final demo available on the website (and Steam, if it’s sold there) will probably only offer the first two or three chapters. If people take skills that aren’t utilized during said demo, it’s probably going to make the same impression on them that it did on me. That may not be a big deal; there may not be many people out there who make non-combat characters in a zombie survival game. I really don’t mean to be argumentative or overly critical, I swear. It was a concern for me, though, and it’s something I would’ve noticed if I were looking to buy the game, so I just thought I’d mention it.

Regarding number two, I definitely agree that’s a risk. If the game rewards combat solutions more than non-combat solutions, however, it is, effectively, a combat game; there’s an implied disincentive for non-combat choices. We don’t know what the game’s going to look like in future chapters, so it may well be that Jim has this figured out already. I’m mostly bringing it up because non-combat skills (apart from Crafting) didn’t feel very satisfying during the demo. Admittedly, it’s a small sample size at this point.

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The skill points have some issues. If things go on like this, my protagonist will probably be maxed out by chapter 4 or 5. I’d suggest you to keep the amount of points as it is, but change the way we spend them. If we didn’t start the game with, say, science, then don’t make it so easy to get it later on. My character started the game with no science, killed a few zombies, and then brought level 3 science by the end of the game. I can’t see how he learned science by killing zombies.

I’d say that we’d need to have some scientist to teach it to us, or at least read a book about science, then we should be able to start buying this skill. Also, since we didn’t start with it, it should be rather expensive to upgrade. Same goes for all other skills we didn’t start out with.

Also, what you do should have an impact on your skills. Say, you provide medical assistance to someone, then your medicine skill gets raised by 1%. Practice leads to perfection, right? Or, instead of raising the skill, raise the ā€œuse skill X times to level upā€ stat. That way you 'd actually have to use the skill to level up. You can’t just buy lvl 20 ranged if you never even threw a paper ball in the trash can before. For example, you need to 10 points to raise crafting skill one more level. Asking a carpenter to teach you gives you 5, making a repair gives you 2, crafting something gives you 1, and so on. Intelligence could be a modifier (intelligence / 2 = points for reading a book, for example).

Also, instead of just starting the game with no combat skills, then just buying, say, ranged, and getting to know how to fire machine guns instantly doesn’t feel right. Guns are part of the ranged skill, but they also require the user to know about the gun so they can use it. I’d suggest having someone teach you how to use guns before you can actually do it (or spending a truck-load of points to figure it out yourself if you have enough intelligence). Also, since pistols aren’t the same as rifles and shotguns aren’t the same as machine guns, you wouldn’t have a cop teaching you how to fire a rocket launcher. You could add a skill tree for people who know ranged, with pistols, rifles, shotguns, and etc to be leveled up individually. Also, ā€œscienceā€ is a bit vague. It could also open up a tree with ā€œchemistryā€, ā€œbiologyā€, and etc. Several skills could have trees added to them.

So, these are my suggestions:

-Keep the amount of points it is, but limit skill-learning potential.
-Let the players choose whatever skills they want to being with, but force them to learn other skills in-story before they can upgrade them.
-Make the protagonist use the skill before they can upgrade them.
-Add skill trees to existing skills.

Since this wouldn’t be so easy to code, I’ll understand if you don’t do it. But you gotta admit, it was a nice idea, wasn’t it? =P

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Your viewpoint is important to voice, we both can help Jim make a better game. I do think what you bring up below is important to remember for a demo (especially on Steam):

I think as a first play and to appeal to the ā€œWalking Deadā€ zombie combat crowd, emphasizing the combat in the beginning is o.k. CoG stories really shine on the second and third plays… Choice of Robots is a prime example on the same level of ZE in my mind.

If I were Jim, I’d value your input very much because you think outside the box and help him see how to bring his story to the next level. one of the dangers I have, is that because I test a lot of games, I sometimes gloss over things I shouldn’t. I’m very good at my testing but your opinions and observations are just as valid as mine and perhaps even more valuable than you know.

Together we can keep Jim on his toes.

[quote] Regarding number two, I definitely agree that’s a risk. If the game rewards combat solutions more than non-combat solutions, however, it is, effectively, a combat game; there’s an implied disincentive for non-combat choices. We don’t know what the game’s going to look like in future chapters, so it may well be that Jim has this figured out already. I’m mostly bringing it up because non-combat skills (apart from Crafting) didn’t feel very satisfying during the demo. Admittedly, it’s a small sample size at this point.
[/quote]

The bolded part is something I am worried about as well but it still is too early to tell. So far, improving the defenses of the house seemed to do nothing extreme - but in the intro I was only able to upgrade once, so idk…

Unfortunately it seems the beginning of zombie stories demand more overt combat solutions. If we were able to figure out a scientific cure in the introduction, I’m not sure Jim’s story could proceed much longer.

With that said: I do believe that if you plan on staying at your home base, you should be able to start assembling a proper lab… raid the local high school for chem and bio equipment… stuff like that could be in the intro to give more non-combat options in the beginning.

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@JimD

Out of sheer curiosity, is there a way for the Teenager to not attend the party?

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Those suggestions you made, are literally impossible to code and track with choice script… The amount of code needed just for one variable would be impossible like 100 lines of code for just a check. They are great additions don’t get me wrong, but impossible without a professional videogame engine and a lot of programmers.
People as we that role-playing and doesn’t look for metagaming are a minority. Maybe not in the forum, but we are in the market. People just want to feel overpowered and kill zombies to feeling like badass. If you put them some restrictions and make them think about stats they will cry and put a one star rating calling it a math game with no pictures and why they have to count points etc…
I would pay an extra for support @JimD a Survival rpg mode!!! With all that rp things we all love as more rare leveling based on the use of skills or can’t learn a new one without making a quest or finding a book in a dangerous area.
I am about creating a movie star with no combat skills none, alcoholic, short fuse, kleptomaniacs and vegetarian. Winona It would be so fun, maybe she has a Chihuahua too . It would be so fun!!

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@JimD I noticed there’s no option to tell Jamie that your parents are dead as a College student. After calling your parents on vacation and being told they are dead or at the very least your mothers phone was on a dead body (could always hope it’s not your parents) there’s no option to inform Jamie.

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@JimD
Here is my teenage profile.

Chapter: 2
Date: Saturday, May 12, 2012
Outbreak Day: 1

PROFILE
Name: Oliver Stevenson-Hoare
Gender: Male
Profession/Background: Teenager
Skill Points: 0
Hair Color: Dark blond
Eye Color: Green
Race/Ethnicity: White or Caucasian
Distinguishing Features: face scar
Pet: Labrador Retriever
Pet’s Name: Thor
Zombie Kills: 2

SAFE HAVEN
Current Safe Haven: home
Location: City of Nightfall
Defense: 5
Damage: 2

Primary Weapon: baseball bat
Secondary Weapon: knife
Armor: None
Clothes: Street Clothes
Primary Vehicle: bicycle

CHALLENGES & PERKS
Deep Sleeper, Pet Owner, Short Fuse
Health
Physical Health: 99%
Mental Health: 90%
Fatigue: 54%
Stress: 43%
PERSONALITY & MORALITY
Daring: 46% Cautious: 54%
Honorable: 80% Self-centered: 20%
Straightforward: 69% Manipulative: 31%
Practical: 64% Emotional: 36%
Civilized: 56% Depraved: 44%
ATTRIBUTES
Strength: 50%
Dexterity: 55%
Agility: 55%
Stamina: 55%
Charisma: 50%
Intelligence: 55%
Willpower: 50%
Perception: 50%
SKILL LEVELS
Athletics (3): Adept
Close-combat Weapons (3): Adept
Cooking (3): Adept
Crafting (2): Beginner
Driving (2): Beginner
Electronics (3): Adept
Empathy (1): Basic
Hand-to-Hand Combat (1): Basic
Intimidation (2): Beginner
Leadership (1): Basic
Medicine (2): Beginner
Persuasion (2): Beginner
Ranged Weapons (2): Beginner
Scavenging (3): Adept
Science (1): Basic
Search (2): Beginner
Stealth (3): Adept
Survival (2): Beginner

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@JimD
I found a bug in chapter 2.
If in chapter 1 you select ā€œMeet Fred on the roof to get some supplies.ā€ Then in chapter 2 the option is still present. When it’s clicked it says that I call Fred’s house.
When I visited Fred’s house I chose to ā€œShoot the zombies through the window.ā€ But I didn’t have a ranged weapon equipped in my primary or secondary.

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My diva role-playing playthrough: Winona Ezine Bio
45 years old. Winona was a perfect example of the child movie star with the ups and downs of it. Kleptomaniac, short fuse paparazzi love so much published photos of her shouting her assistants or she drunk after a Holywood party. Alcohol, money being vegetarian and a Chihuahua called Enrico Patterson. How she could survive a zombie apocalypse without Botox… I have no idea.

She was a ballet dancer and still being agile as hell, Her charisma could move mountains and what not many people know she is very, very clever. She started acting with 5 years and still alive and famous 40 years before. Not many people could survive the Hollywood political backstage
Sadly, I can’t be all that things same time, so I chose vegetarian, kleptomaniac and alcoholic. It’s a pity really @JimD at least for the testing, please let me choose 5.
ATTRIBUTES
Strength: 30%
Dexterity: 50%
Agility: 70%
Stamina: 30%
Charisma: 70%
Intelligence: 70%
Willpower: 50%
Perception: 50%
Skills
Athletics (3): Adept
Driving (3): Adept
Electronics (1): Basic
Empathy (3): Adept
Intimidation (1): Basic
Leadership (3): Adept
Persuasion (5): Superior
Scavenging (1): Basic
Search (1): Basic
Stealth (5): Superior
Survival (3): Adept
No combat at all, she is fit and stealthy she was never caught stealing a good driver due movie training same goes for survival, she did a movie where she was in a shipwreck and had to survive alone in an island she learned a lot survival skills to make it believable she was even nominated to an Oscar.

Playthrough
Was terrible easy too much. It’s easier than you could imagine. It’s not believable, that a ZERO combat skills could kill a soldier with a simple knife. Yes, It’s true, I started charming him and then sneak attack to Cowboy but still… Maybe he just be badly damaged if I have zero combat. I am really stealthy and agile so the hide and seek with zombies is great… Without crafting skills I have tons of products I don’t know what could do with. And I just had too much free time without the possibility of doing nothing more just check my gear two times in a row. Why I just can’t get some sleep or something. Like a high survival vegetarian girl, why I just can’t plant so.e biological samples I got from the house? Survival must serve for growing seeds and for fishing not crafting. Even if crafting should help to improve the productivity. (Better systems, etc.)

Edit: I forget to write my final stats. Here it goes.
Chapter: 2
Date: Saturday, May 12, 2012
Outbreak Day: 1

PROFILE
Name: Winona Ezine
Gender: Female
Profession/Background: Actress diva
Skill Points: 16
Hair Color: Black
Eye Color: Green
Race/Ethnicity: White or Caucasian, Asian
Distinguishing Features: a pin-up girl tattoo on the lower back
Zombie Kills: 3
Survivor Kills: 1

SAFE HAVEN
Current Safe Haven: home
Location: City of Nightfall
Defense: 3
Damage: 4

Primary Weapon: knife
Secondary Weapon: M9 pistol
Armor: None
Clothes: Street Clothes
Primary Vehicle: two-door coupe

CHALLENGES & PERKS
Addiction to Alcohol, Kleptomaniac, Vegetarian

HEALTH
Physical Health: 99%
Mental Health: 99%
Fatigue: 84%
Stress: 34%
PERSONALITY & MORALITY
Daring: 78% Cautious: 22%
Honorable: 63% Self-centered: 37%
Straightforward: 59% Manipulative: 41%
Practical: 66% Emotional: 34%
Civilized: 56% Depraved: 44%

2 Likes

Wow! Nice character creation, can you make a toxicologist? Someone with high science, craft, medicine.

Are you talking with me? I
If it’s so, I love making characters to role playing with so without problem I could make one for whoever ask me for. A Toxicologist … Interesting.

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Thanks to everyone for feedback on the game so far and for all of the character profiles. This is all exceptionally helpful.

I have been thinking about character development a lot and see the flaws in the current system. Here’s my new proposal, some of which is rehashed from earlier discussions.

1.Each profession/background will have primary and secondary skills. Raising those skills will be easier after creation.

Teens and college students will have different mechanics. Teens will have less skills to begin with but will raise in skills faster. They will only be able to master one skill until deep in the game. This reflects their lack of experience but potential to learn. College students have slightly less skill points at the start, get learning discounts, and can master two skills.

2.Skill points will be awarded less dynamically. They are given for surviving, not for zombie kills or rewarded for doing a task. It pushes the game into more RPG territory and as Mara said, Choicescript is not an RPG engine. Also I don’t want to motivate people to do something just for skill points or other meta rewards. Right now combat and persuasive characters will be at an ungodly advantage over others.

3.You will not select skills to raise at the end of a chapter (though I really do enjoy that system). Instead, you will be given the option to ā€œTrain a Skillā€ in your daily list. Training will take time and skill points and other requirements (a laboratory, a row of cans for target price, books, etc.).

4.Survivors can train you. If you meet a survivalist named Boone, you will see an option, ā€œAsk Boone to train me in survival.ā€ If Boone likes you enough, he will train you. Training in this way is at a reduced cost and takes less time. This also motivates some players to take in survivors. I see a choice happening:

ā€œDo I kill Boone and take his gear or let him join to train me?ā€

You can still learn survival without Boone, but it will take more time and skill points.

I do not like the ā€œRepeatedly do Skill X to raise it 1%ā€ mechanic. That is the rich-get-richer method which promotes repeat actions. I want people to make choices based on analyzing their situation not just pick the option to use their highest skill. I do understand the realism of this system–it’s how most RL skills improve–but I am trying to allow hybrid characters to excel and also want to allow people not to rely on just primary skills.

As always, please provide feedback!

I’ll address specific feedback in a new thread.

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I like your ideas but the survivors training you, it has a great downside many people just would never kill anyone just to farm trainers as cows for milk. Sounds like you want to be ruthless… now you will lost lot of points so forgetting that. I would like a chance of finding something to speed training in their bodies even if it’s less effective than them training you. Like if the guy is a hacker he must have something with him to help him with it. Not all trainers but some of them. Like it would happen in real life. Anyway I would still killing people looking weak or useless in my ruthless role-playings .

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Firstly, when you say that you can learn survival from Boone, what actions will he take to train you?
Also, will he be a recurring NPC?
Secondly, when you say that training will take time, will it take place spread out over several in game days eg.2-4 pm on days 12-13, or will it be hour by hour or take several hours eg. 1-4pm?
When you say that skill points are given for surviving, what do you mean?

Roughly how many words does the game currently have?

I really like this new system. People may be idiots, but, as I said earlier, they’re great assets. Now I have a pragmatic excuse to keep people alive, instead of the ā€œI won’t let you die because I don’t want to be an idiot like youā€ thing. Killing people may be fun, but isn’t a great strategy for personal improvement. If you want to kill them, nothing is more fair than to lose your chance to learn. It’s your decision to kill, deal with the consequences. And I don’t exactly think dead people should drop items that help you acquire skills. Yeah, a hacker may drop his awesome fully-customized handheld computer when he dies, but what good would it do if you don’t already know how to use it?

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@JimD


When going the custom profession path and choosing Other, the college student still has the underscore _


were

Look at it that way: more survivors cost more resources, so the better training may be necessary for progress/surviving, whereas a lone wolf only has to take care of themselves (…and their cat…or dog/child if you like those)

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Hey, @JimD, do you know what would be really cool? If we could train other survivors just like they can train us. I’m totally gonna make my own private army if the game allows it lol Alpha Team goes out to hunt, Bravo Team stays home to defend.

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