@Vendetta – I was thinking both of the bathhouse visit where the protagonist can choose to “get what you paid for” from a coerced and terrified young prostitute, and of one possible end to the Carina romance (explicit version).
As I write this now, I recall that those two scenes were with the same person… and my assumption that the other bathhouse attendants would be similarly rapeable may well be wrong. In either case, “a lot of people” is inaccurate – apologies, I don’t want to misrepresent you.
That being said: one’s too many for me. I recognize that you’re letting people have the choice to play a violent, amoral protagonist, but there are some lines you’ve chosen not to cross – could rape not be one of them? Maybe it seems weird that I don’t react the same way to being given the chance to randomly murder a passerby in the first five minutes of the game. But sexual violence is different.
There’s something uniquely shitty about the fact that so many guys get off on it. Even where guys don’t act out those rape fantasies, it’s the ultimate in reducing women to objects, with all the ugliness that follows from that attitude. And rape in a ChoiceScript story, where the second-person protagonist is the rapist, is I think almost impossible to do with any degree of sensitivity. It’s basically catnip for the rape fantasist.
But we’re not comparing the actual crimes here. We’re comparing stories/entertainment about murder with stories/entertainment about rape. Those stories have different effects on people in our cultural context… and yes, I think rape stories are worse. (Though not all murders are equal – stories about the graphic murder of women send a lot of the same messages as rape stories).
@Havenstone Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to respond with your thoughts.
I don’t actually disagree with you, to be honest, which is why when the subject rears its ugly head in Vendetta, the response to such a Choice tends to be rather terse. It’s not a subject I enjoy writing about, and it’s not a subject I intend to ever cover in any detail, but at the same time I do feel that for the story to be credible we cannot just ignore the subject and pretend that this particular aspect of “the darker side” of human nature doesn’t exist. The Choice will remain available where the situation dictates (the Bathhouse scene with Carina being a case in point), but I certainly don’t intend to indulge any fantasies beyond simply acknowledging the existence of such inclinations. Above all, I feel that in a game full of opportunity to murder, mutilate and maim almost at will, completely excluding this particular subject would be hypocritical in the extreme . . . But it’s a tough call.
@Zed It’s a work in progress–sometimes I can work on it a lot, and sometimes (as lately) only a little. All I can promise is that it won’t just disappear into limbo: Vendetta is here to stay.
@Vendetta, I appreciate your willingness to talk about it, too.
Yes, the terse response is definitely preferable to an indulgent description. On the other hand, we still end up with a storyline where “you” choose rape and the consequences are zero for both rapist and survivor. Nothing to describe here, on with the story.
And of course I know that’s also true of all the other murdering, maiming, and mayhem in the game. You’re playing a partly dehumanized character, who dehumanizes other people. I don’t have a problem with that story concept as such – right up until it starts to overlap with the ways that our culture dehumanizes certain specific groups of people, with terrible real-world effects. There aren’t that many strands of our culture that say it’s OK to cut Joe Businessguy’s throat and take his money. There are significant strands that justify treating women as objects, even objects of violence.
I’d be equally turned off, for another example, if when that handsome tailor boy comes on to “you,” you had the choice to beat him to a pulp. (I don’t think this choice is in there?) Gay-bashing and gay-hatred is a real-world problem that feeds on the wrong kind of stories (and, happily, is being reduced by the right kind of stories becoming more mainstream). I’m relieved that in your story, if I recall correctly, you’re given the choice to be gay, but not the choice to be a gay-basher.
I know you’ve not written it in for kicks, but I wish you’d treat rape similarly to gay-bashing and use your writing skills to gracefully evade the choice. If the other bathhouse attendants didn’t require a rape choice… is there really no way to write Carina so that the alternative to rescuing her isn’t raping her?
Whether it’s rape at all is kind of iffy. She did willingly choose this job knowing full well she’d have to have sex for money. And you don’t force her. Yeah, it’s a horrible situation, but she did choose this path herself.
@Shoelip That’s not a justification at all in any manner. Ever. Period. That’s a self justifying excuse. While a character (or the light it’s portrayed in) may used that excuse, that in no way, shape or form makes it less of a rape.
You’re right. It’s not justification. I wasn’t trying to justify it. I’m saying it’s not rape. It was consensual. Rape is non-consensual sex. Hence, it’s not rape. Is it questionable ethics. Definitely. As is prostitution as a whole. But it’s not rape unless it’s non-consensual.
Don’t cheapen rape by tossing it around carelessly or you’re no better than the straw feminists who say any time a woman has sex with a man it’s rape.
@Shoelip: I’ve gone back to pull the relevant scene from the game. Here’s the set-up for the choice:
"Carina is obviously extremely nervous, trembling with anxiety, as she leads you through into a private room. Her fumbling, quite inept ministrations soon demonstrate that she is neither experienced nor comfortable with the situation. Terrified, would probably be a more accurate description.
“When you demand to know what the problem is, she breaks down in tears and admits that this is her first day, and you, her first customer. She needs the money to take care of her little sister, she explains, as her father broke his leg and cannot work. Sobbing, she begs you not to complain to her boss.”
She plainly does not want to have sex with the protagonist. Circumstances have forced her into her current job – she “chose” it as the only alternative to her family becoming destitute. This is not consent in any moral sense. Let’s not start arguing about legal definitions of consent and choice – would you agree that in any moral system worth having, having sex with a woman who doesn’t want it but feels forced into it is rape?
The idea that rape isn’t rape – when it’s done to a prostitute, or a spouse, or a woman who was coming on to you all evening – is exactly the kind of “big lie” that pops up all over in our culture, and that rape stories feed unless they’re written with extraordinary sensitivity and skill. This is the kind of response that worries me, @Vendetta.
@Shoelip: Also, presumably by referring to “straw feminists,” you’re recognizing that nobody actually makes that argument. (A “straw man” being an imaginary figure taking an extreme position that nobody actually espouses in the real world).
So why on earth would you choose to bring that up for comparison, in such a wildly insensitive and provocative way? Out of line, man. Way out of line.
@Havenstone It’s not like this was her only option, but yeah, I agree it’s morally fucked up. But it’s not rape either. She knew she was going to have to have sex in this job going in, but she chose it of her own volition. If she refused and was forced to that would be one thing, but she agreed to it. By your logic every prostitute is automatically a rape victim. Which of course means either that they aren’t responsible for their actions… or that it’s there fault for being raped.
“Straw Feminist” refers to any woman who claims to be a feminist but is really just a… whatever the equivalent of misogynist is for men. Someone who uses the name of feminism to promote their own hateful fucked up agenda the same way WBC uses Christianity. Another word is Feminazi. And yes, people do hold these views. Don’t believe me? Well lucky you. I hope you don’t ever have to encounter the proof.
@Shoelip, by my logic, any sex worker who takes up the job because they have no other choice is engaged in non-consensual sex. And I’m pretty happy with that logic.
In the real world, lots of prostitutes are kidnapped or coerced into their role, or take it as the only alternative to starvation (and the character in Vendetta’s story is portrayed in this light). For others it is an economic choice or a lifestyle choice. I’d say sleeping with the former is (morally even if not legally) rape; sleeping with the latter is not, though it is as you say morally fucked up in other ways.
As for your second paragraph, it’s deeply unworthy of you. In other threads, you’ve been able to stay generally civil when presented with feminist views with which you disagree. Throwing out slurs like “Feminazi” and trying to stick with your extreme caricature of the man-hating feminist – as though it comes close to describing anyone involved in our discussions here – is no way to engage in debate on serious issues.
This argument obviously has high potential to go nuclear, and I’d ask everyone involved to try to stay civil.
I never even implied the term had anything to do with anyone involved in the discussion. I said it’s a term for people who use feminism as an excuse for reprehensible hateful behavior.
