United We Stand - Political WIP

gender-choice
adult-fiction
political-fiction

#1597

I think its less the idea that you are whitewashing the far left and more that by taking out the fascists for things like genocide and anti semitic behavior while also leaving in the socialists/far left who are also guilty of genocide and anti semitism, it is, whether intentionally or not, saying “this side is the better side” which I think is a little unfair. Both sides were bad and I really enjoyed seeing the prospective from both ends of the spectrum. I fear that by taking out the New Order any semblance of humanity or any explanation of why they do what they do, flawed or not, will be all but thrown out the window. Solidarity will by extension appear more sympathetic.

I really enjoyed how you showed that both sides were bad, but also had their reasons. You showed that while the ideologies are flawed, the followers were also humans like you and me. They had their reasons for what they did and what they believe. I feel that by taking out the New Order path your story will no longer have as strong of an impact or message. But thats just me. Its your story in the end.

I have followed the project for a long time and I am sad you are thinking of taking out the New Order path. I have faith in your ability to write a respectful portrayal of history. And as I said previously, not all fascist parties were Nazis. In the end this is a fascist party of a fictional nation giving you some leeway in how you depict them. You don’t have to make them antisemitic genocidal Nazis. You aren’t whitewashing anything by not portraying them that way.

Anyways, while I am disappointed I still wish you all the best on your project. I have faith in your abilities and I’m sure however you write your story it will turn out well.


#1598

It definitely seems like it, if you take out Fascism and keep in Communism then you are inherently censoring the game and white washing European cultural and whitewashing the game. While leaving out all the stuff that is in Communism yet you will keep it.


#1599

First of all, I want to point out that I really like the concept behind the game. Honestly, something like this is what I’ve been looking for for ages. I can’t believe that I only discovered this within the past few months, and sincerely hope that this project gets finished. However, that said, let me throw my two bits into this discussion regarding the removal of the New Order path.

Now, admittedly I personally prefer the Solidarity path, so I’m not that distraught over the removal of the New Order option. However, I would prefer if it wasn’t removed, as it makes the game seem incomplete. However, most of all, I believe it’s unnecessary.

Now, I understand why you want to do it. As others have mentioned, writing from a viewpoint that you vehemently disagree can be extremely difficult (admittedly one of the reasons I don’t prefer the New Order path). Furthermore, with the rising of neo-fascist groups IRL, I can understand that you don’t want to encourage them by giving them a game that appeals to them. That said, I believe that you shouldn’t let it stop you from making a good story and a good game.

People will always find a way to misinterpret good art as pushing something it isn’t. Nineteen Eighty-Four is often believed to be against leftism, when in fact Orwell himself was an avid democratic-socialist, and his novel was meant to criticize totalitarianism itself, and distinguish the Soviet Union from what socialism actually stood for (Animal Farm had the same problem). The game BioShock Infinite, despite being a satire of nativism and jingoism, ended up having it’s promotional material utilized by white nationalists. The list goes on, but to cover them all would keep us here forever. While this may not sound encouraging, my point is not to let a few unsavory individuals prevent you from creating an amazing piece of art.

Regardless, ultimately it’s your decision to make, and I understand your reasons for making it. I’m eagerly awaiting the finishing of the game, and can’t wait for it’s release.


#1601

I will give you my real not politically correctness opinion. Have a communist part and being forced to it Reinforced the vision of How wonderful communist were in Europe in that time and white them as defenders of common men.

I am Spanish as most of people we suffered a fascist asshole that casually born in my home town. Curiously town were the founder of Spanish socialist party born too.
I have members of my family attacked by communist gerrillas called in Galicia maquis. My dad was in a illegal union party called USO during last years of franco

Communist parties in that time were as ruthless racist and violent as fascism. Portrait one as only choice is highlighting GOOD GUYS and just put like the good guys another big evil in European story. But your story your decision.

I think conservatives is a “lame” choice as don’t portrait a real dramatic difference vs communism. However, maybe a high ultra nationalist group tied to religion and old style PNV party could be useful as a second choice


#1602

Heres my two cents on the removal of the new order path.

I was actually kid of sad that it was going to get removed since it was my preferred path, mainly since its a fascinating ideology, not a good one but a fascinating one. its a possibility that you could have a party that is like the Valkist of Fuhrerreich. where the idea behind them is they’re actually a socially progressive party by 1930s standards, while instead of believing the German race is the master race, they believe that the German culture is supreme. excerpt you trade out Germany for Moravia.

and when I say fascism is a fascinating ideology, I do not think its a good one. just thinking it fascinating does not make me a racist even if you call me that won’t matter since I remember coming back from lunch one day to hear some girl next to me say “hey you’re that racist guy, right”


#1603

Having played both paths and enjoyed your writing for both, I want to give my thoughts on the argument about whether or not the New Order (henceforth referred to as NO due to me being a slightly bemused fan of Joy Division/New Order) path should be removed. I went back and bolded key points since I know this got a bit long.

I don’t think there’s a great solution either way, and that genuinely sucks for everyone, but most especially you. I wanted to state that first, because I’m very sorry you’re in this situation and I can imagine that any solution you go with won’t leave you entirely thrilled or pleased with the results. It means a lot to me as a reader to know that you have put this much thought and reflection into this process.

I say this as someone who considers herself very left of center, but I have both ancestors and current family that have suffered under Socialist/Communist dictatorships. Currently, some of my family are trapped in internment camps inside a country with such a dictatorship. As I’m sure you’re aware, it is inaccurate for people to assume that socialist and communist governments are not guilty of genocide or ethnocide. I can understand why some fans of the NO path can feel that you are guilty of whitewashing the Solidarity party when this is the reason for NO’s removal. Both extreme socialist/communists and fascists ultimately rely on the idea of everyone being the same, so they often support assimilation, often through violence. Even “moderate” political parties, autocracies, monarchies, etc, have been guilty of genocides and ethnocides. By removing NO for this reason, it can seem like ignorance to that darker aspect of everyone else.

With that said, though, I think it is easier to separate Solidarity/socialism and other political ideologies from this past because of their more idealistic aspects. With fascism, it is very difficult to remove the nationalist and xenophobic aspects of it, because it is more intrinsically tied to the fascist identity. This is why I am able to ignore my discomfort with playing as a member of Solidarity more easily than that with NO. To me, personally, I feel that Socialism and Communism has more heroic and kinder intentions than that of fascism, and I know that also ties into my admittedly biased belief that extreme fascism is not comparable to socialism or communism.

But, knowing your goals in the portrayals of both parties, I think as the demo currently stands, it is easy to miss that you’re trying to show the bad in both sides of the spectrum. I think that a lot of the debate in this thread is proof that it is very easy to interpret one side as being “the good guys”, depending on which side you actually support. I think that if a neo-fascist was to play only what is currently available to the public, he may get the wrong idea–but I also think that if a neo-socialist or neo-communist was to play, it would be vice versa. I understand that this impression is based off of an incomplete game, but that’s what I have been afraid of throughout your process of writing this game. As much as I enjoy your writing, and I think this is a very well-done game writing/mechanics-wise, I have to be honest and say that I genuinely do feel that in an effort to have this game come off as balanced, it risks coming off as whitewashing the uglier aspects of both perspectives, and it risks leading to false and inaccurate comparisons between them.

But I don’t think removing NO outright is the accurate response. Instead, I think there are better suggestions to either improve what is there currently or restructure it(although they all differ in workload):

  • Instead of having the player choose their party outright, have the player introduced as a moderate, new politician who is exposed to their flaws outright and forced into joining these parties like many politicians at the time often did. So everyone gets the same “prologue” of sorts, and then the second half of the game is more reflective of the party choice.
  • Add in divisions within both Solidarity and NO who want to go to the more horrific extremes of their real-life counterparts–so include the racial and cultural parts–and take a firm stance that the MC is not able to join those parts of the party. Portray these people as genuinely terrifying. Make the MC have to confront and fight (either verbally or physically) members of their own party.
  • Remove the ability to romance the heads of either party, and make them more representative of the negative aspects of their respective parties.
  • Have Riga and other members of NO openly condemn Germany’s form of fascism, and include more exploration of how they came to the belief that a dictatorship was the best form of government for their people.

I’m sure others have better ideas. With that said, I will support what you do no matter what, and I look forward to playing this game when it is finished.


#1604

I don’t want to get the thread closed again so I’ll be careful with what I say. Things have changed and I think scrapping the New Order path is good. The world needs an unapologetically anti-fascist game right now.

A number of people read the game as a condemnation of extremism. I’m not sure if that is your intention. Because it doesn’t really read that way to me.

Before we go further I should acknowledge my biases. I am a communist, I think liberals are nearly useless in the anti-fascist struggle. Solidarity doesn’t name a specific left-wing strand they follow but they’re enemies of Stalin’s Comintern and seem to have some similarities with the Spartacists. From what we’ve seen of the game I probably agree with them completely.

I think their analysis of Monrovia is correct. The fascists are in the government, the police protect and actively help them, and the reaction of the establishment forces is a weak condemnation of violence on both sides when New Order is clearly a few moves away from taking over the government. I think militant action is justified here and I think even if you don’t agree it’s hard not to at least sympathize.

It’s hard to paint both sides as bad when solidarity is clearly right at least in their take on the fascists in the government.

My advice: embrace it. You’ve created a story in which the player can stop a fascist takeover and either repair the broken system that allowed it or try to create something better. Perhaps give the option to formally switch sides to the social democrats at some point, or if you’re in the mood for something more ambitious you could write a full social democratic path.


#1605

Excuse me but what do you mean by this? I mean no offence to the author but i don’t think this game will be some international phenomenon which will scare away fascists.

Also didn’t wolfenstein 2 the new order release just a year ago? A way bigger game in which you, you know, kill nazis?:thinking:


#1606

In this political climate it is cathartic to have a game in which I get to crush a fascist uprising. I like wolfenstein but it’s nice to have some variety. I was being a bit wistful with my phrasing. Maybe let’s not talk too much about the real world because this is the sort of line of conversation that led to the thread getting locked.


#1607

I have been a big fan of this game since you first posted this WIP. I grew to be such a fan because of the way you had treated the 2 sides of the extremes. To hear the new order might be removed is highly disappointing, i found it very interesting seeing that side of the story that has been highly ignored over the years. And as others have stated that 1930’s communism committed near as many crimes against humanity as 1930’s fascism. Both ideas are based on destroying the old system and giving total control to the head party, while the leader has complete control. I worry that instead of a story about no heroes but men and women making choices on emotion from years of terrible government will instead be a story about socialist heroes. This time in history was time riddled with crimes from ever form of government, we seen democracies destroy 2 cities and cost japan between 120-200k worth of peoples lives. Canada/ USA had internment camps for people of Japaneses heritage. This was a difficult time in the world and no one was truly innocent and i hope even if you do decide to take out the NC path you will continue to show that both sides were far from heroes.


#1608

Personally I am of the belief that it is possible to depict fascism without the racism and the antisemitism. Fascism by its very nature is a response to the left, with authoritarian leanings. Modern day Trumpism has been refereed to as American Fascism. I have no desire to engage a political debate as to whether or not it is, (lest this get closed down again.) I believe that as is, you’ve provided sufficient “enemies of the state” for the New Order by using communists and communism.As previously stated, Fascism is a response to a rise of power growing in the hands of the left, thus to demonize communism rather than a specific race or religion is more than appropriate. What I’ve loved about your game, is having played both Solidarity and New Order up to the modern point, you can see how they feel about one another, and how they feel about the world. It’s as the old quote goes “everyone is the hero of their own story.” Based on that something I think would be interesting is instead of playing as just the Fascist new order or the Communist Solidarity you play as both, see the shortcomings in each system from the eyes of their enemy.


#1609

Excuse me are you using Trump as an example of Fascism WITHOUT Racism. Because you may need to be taken to school if you are.


#1610

No messere I am not, though I can understand how you may get the idea, I’m using Trumpism to illustrate that every nation will have their own version of Fascism. (admittedly it could’ve been better phrased)


#1611

Ahh my misunderstanding. Actually sadly racism has gotten so bad in the world. That Germany, Creator of the Nazis, has an Anti Semetic Alt Right party raising in power and popularity. Italy flat out has shown it’s true colors. Even England is having Racism problems. It’s gotten to the point where I wonder if being a decent human being is the mutation and being a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, islamaphobic, judaiophobic, asshole is just the norm.


#1612

This is a gentle reminder to please keep conversations directed at the topic at hand and not at individuals themselves.

Focusing replies on the individuals themselves instead of the topic at hand can lead to friction between members and often causes friction and flaming.

Finally, if you see disrespectful posts please do not reply to them. Rather please use the report feature and let forum staff de-escalate friction.


#1613

Now, I’ll start off with a disclaimer: I lean more towards NO and therefore I identify with them and enjoy them more, so I’m gonna be a bit biased towards them. Also I’ve only finished the NO path all the way to the current end of the demo, so I can’t speak for the current Solidarity path.
Now with that out of the way, I’m obviously a bit disappointed with your choice to either curb or eliminate the NO path from the game, for two reasons. To start off, I really liked the NO characters and even if they remained after you change NO to NB, I’m sure they wouldn’t be the same. The other reason is that I feel kinda sad for you that you have to either write something you morally object to or just delete literally years of work :cry:. I will say I think some people have made some excellent points when it comes to toning down or whitewashing NO. You don’t need to make it conservative, but perhaps instead have it lend itself more to Spanish Fascism, which wasn’t antisemitic and more so heavily nationalistic and anti-communist (which is what NO resembles closer to imo). Nationalism also isn’t exclusively racist, most people of that era tended to be at the very least mildly racist, so I don’t believe you could read it as whitewashing NO specifically if racism is left out since really it’s just whitewashing politics of those times (which I would say in this case is necessary because of CoG and Apple terms).
Ultimately it’s your choice if you want to keep it or not, but I just think it’d be really sad to see all of that hard work go to waste when you could avoid it by just minorly tweaking it. Best of luck with the game! :smiley:


#1614

Alex is publishing a book about the Spanish civil war they know about Falangism. You should know that among the groups targeted by the white terror were Spanish minorities like the basque. After the war Franco also banned their languages and cracked down on their regional autonomy. It wasn’t the holocaust but to act like ethnic supremacy wasn’t an element to falangism is naive at best.


#1615

I am from Galicia and yes I could confirm that minorities were wipe out and our native language same as Basque or catalonian was persecuted. Gypsies and other minorities were mistreated. My grandma had family who died by famine diet complications. So said Franco wasn’t racist . . Is a lie like a mountain. And won’t enter in repression to women and gays …

However communists weren’t angels either nor side could be proud of being okay. As humanity tend to be shit when has power.
I know people who had to runaway from Cuba and Venezuela.

So portrayed communist as only playable is say They were good guys and that’s not true . So maybe a ultra nationalist could be a balanced against communists. That or invent a total new national oarty not racist


#1616

I’m not going to deny the crimes of Leninists but there are a lot of socialist ideologies that are quite opposed to Leninist vanguardism. The Kronstadt Rebellion was a left-wing uprising against the Bolsheviks.

One of the things we know about Solidarity is that they are blacklisted by the Comintern. Which at least implies opposition to Stalinism.

They haven’t really been written as authoritarians at least from what’s in the game now.


#1617

I mean technically your character could side with either side solidarity or New order and be the only sane person involved. It would be interesting to find out what exactly appeals about the fascist path. Is it a case of " I’d literally shoot myself in the head to own a lib" mentality or is it more " I’m not going to the lynching but I am going to the fiscal spending discussion" type mentality.