@AlexClifford1994
So first of all i’d like to stress that this post is NOT a personal attack on you Alex and i in fact congratulate you on the work you have done so far. You have every right to write whatever you like and i will respect any and all desicions you decide to make but great thing about freedom of speech is that just as you have the right to do whatever you like with your project i also have the right to critizise it. With that being said let’s begin…
I can more or less understand where you’re coming from here. Writing about a belief that you personally disagree can be very tough on any creator but let me ask you, and everyone on the forum that refuses to play the New Order path simply because of personal moral objections, one question:
Why did you have no moral doubts about writing/playing the Solidarity path?
Standard answer i’d expect from anyone is that Solidarity is not communist but rather socialist which is somewhat better in comparison to both the former and to fascism. Which brings me to my next point…
Why are people only concerned with whitewashing right wing exremism? This was a small gripe i had with the game since the first time i played a few months back. Why write about the most exremist right wing ideology but then go and NOT write about it’s equal which would be communism? Why try to remove the biggest flaws of the hard left by making us play a Socialist/hard left?(i really don’t remember what they specifiaclly are so apologies for that) party instead of the communist party which would be more fair and accurate imo? (I know the whole story of the split between the Stalinist faction and the Socialist faction within Solidarity but to me it feels like a justification to not include a communist party in the game rather than a legitimate story plot but this may just be me and my weirdness talking.)
By the same token i can go and request that instead of the New Order party you replace it with a party similar to the one ruling Greece in the period right before WW2. It was basically the Solidarity of the right. Refusing key elements of traditional fascism but still being a very similar authorotarian, anti-communist system.
Now i was more than willing to overlook this small thing because of the overall theme, that being that both extremes of the political spectrum are just as awful, which you were going for.
Keep in mind that i am by no means accusing you or anyone of favoritism but sometimes i wonder why everyone is so cool with left wing extremism…
I have seen more than a few people on this forum refuse to play the NO path with the justification that it is “against their beliefs” or something similar. Ok. So what you are saying is that a hard left socialist party is just in line with your political beliefs? Ok i am indeed being a bit of a generalizing douchebag but these are all things to think about next time you boot up the game and roll your eyes when the choice of political party comes up.
In conclusion, i am of the belief that you are, like you said yourself, kind of removing the appeal of the choice between right-left we have to make at the start of each game and so i have decided that i will not be playing this game anymore. Mind you this is not because of any spite i might have against you or your project but simply because i believe that i will not find it entertaining. Without that very important choice at the start of the game i feel like there’s no point in playing the game because i think that it will no longer treat fairly the political turmoil of the 30s. I know you will probably try your best ro remain fair and to treat both sides as equally bad but without a hard-right wing path to highlight the problems of Socialism/act as an equalizing force i think that this will no longer be possible for you.
Again, congratulations on the work you have done so far and i wish you good luck with your project!
I followed this project for a long time and I’m disappointed that the fascist path is being taken out as if to imply it’s worse than communism, both sides have huge flaws that lead to the deaths of millions, I’m from a country that suffered under the rule of communists for a long time and I’ve heard first hand stories about the life under communist rule. I respect the author’s decision no to continue writing the fascist path, though it doesn’t make much sense to me.
Guys come on the thread literally just openend back please dont start again with the “communism n fascism are the same” thats the whole reason the thread was closed in the first place.
As far as I’m concerned I’m still hyper excited about the project and while I do find it unfortunate that some content will be cut I still understand the reason. Personally I think more time to focus on a single path will just lead to a better playtrough since it doesnt have to be cut in two anymore. Your options with solidarity just grew and if it can make some peoples happy, making a split between the nationalist soviets and the internationalist anarchists/socialists in addition to the liberal/socialist split could be an option to please the more authoritarian leaning peoples and at the same time teach the difference between the most popular leftist movement of the time. So instead of a struggle between leftists and rightists it could be a story of leftism infighting in the face of a potential fascist takeover (sorta fit with united we stand name). The authoritarian soviets could have the army sympathy, liberals are friend with the elite (monarchy, capitalists, etc) and socialists/anarchists are closer to the regular ppls in the street.
Thats just ideas tho and I seriously cant wait to see whats more to come. When your book come out you need to give us the name so I can get a copy👌
Edit: I also dont think the 18+ scenes are that bad either tbh. It is a game where you can assasinate political opponents, a bit of sex is pale in comparison to the issues that could bring
Glad the thread is reopened, and good luck with your book!
I am of several minds regarding Conservative v. Fascist route issue. I do think the existence of the choice of playing as radicals of opposite wings has made this a very unique story. Regarding people considering you already watering down Solidarity to make them Rad Soc and not Communist, you have also removed the overt racism that was core to many fascist regimes, so I guess you kinda water down both sides in that regard (which I think is necessary for multiple reasons).
While I would be a bit sad to see the loss of the Fascist route, I understand if you want to go for just Solidarity. It would probably be less work on your end, and also avoids some of those thorny issues the Fascism brings up.
Regarding the Conservatives and the Bloc, I think there is a lot of interesting possibilities here. A lot of Conservative parties did decide to support the rise of Fascist regimes in their countries. The German Conservatives and Hindenburg are an obvious example, but one must also remember France. A lot of Conservatives would go on to collaborate with the Vichy, and there was a legitimate sentiment of “better Hitler than Blum” the Socialist, Jewish Popular Front leader. Not all conservatives backed the fascists, the wartime French government was a Centrist-Center Right coalition. The ruling Conservative Party in Britain never even really flirted with authoritarianism and during the war were perfectly fine with a unity government with Labour. Essentially, I think there are a lot of narrative opportunists with a Conservative route, deciding what to do with the Fascists, and even if you oppose them how willing you are to suppress freedoms (speech, press, fair elections) in the quest to maintain Order in the face of radicalism on both sides.
Regarding Sex Scenes, I personally do not have any problems with them, but do what you what you feel comfortable doing!
Man that sucks, I understand but I kind of enjoyed playing as the New Order. But if you don’t want to write it then don’t, but I still think it would be cool to still include the New Order. And to be honest I probably won’t play it if you take it out, that is in no way meant to mean the game will be bad but it just will take away some of it’s charm and uniqueness. But good luck, best wishes and I hope that you change your mind.
From everything you’ve disclosed before and just now, I think the best route would be to re-cast the story from being historically based to one that has a world designed and built to fit what you are comfortable writing.
A lot can still be based on our historical world but by moving this story out of that straight-jacket of historical implications tied so closely to the subject-matter you can address the issues you desire without bringing along additional unwanted baggage.
In designing your own world, you have the freedom of designing your own factions as well and this is where I believe your historical background and your creativity will blossom - the ability to create complex believable factions that do not include morally suspect elements is something i have confidence you can do.
If you insist on taking this journey on its plotted course (altered to new requirements) I feel you will keep hitting portraying the historical “horrific” flaws or “whitewashing” elements delimna (sp) - historically, there are no angels on Earth and there will be fault found no matter the faction(s) explored.
As to the Sex Scenes - My advise as a long time tester is to write them as you are, completing them to your best ability. If at the end of the development cycle you want to change them (for whatever reason) you should be able to without too much trouble or delay.
Many movies and games have “Director Cuts” for a reason and it is easier to do it correct the first time rather then developing a purposefully censored version then going back and recreating the “right” version later.
If you are concerned about Apple or Steam criteria, just remember that since you first opened this project, the standards have changed and the goal-posts have been moved quite often by the platforms that there is no real guessing where the standards will be at the end of development.
“Now” - although the current standard is not totally understood or even put forth (articles can be found explaining how developers are still not sure of the standards.
Nevertheless, this proves my point: back in Jul, 2016, when this thread was opened, Steam’s standards were much different and the route to publication was very different than it is today. I do not think any of us (outside of Steam employees) will know where the goal posts lay 6 months let alone 2 years from now.
Racism and discrimination are pretty much baked into the dna of fascist ideology since fascism by nature is a discriminatory ideology. As for anti-semitism that was prevalent almost universally across Europe at the time on the right as well as the left and while some fascist parties and organisation in some European countries other than Germany were, on this issue, not significantly worse than the national mean, none can be termed to have ever been champions of Jewish rights.
The trouble is that, historically, the conservative enablers of fascism and everything that has wrought have always escaped unscathed and in many cases even vastly enriched. Needless to say, I don’t consider the sentiment you mention to have ever been particularly “legitimate” but rather a textbook example of the horrors an out-of-control, biased or willfully ignorant press can inflict upon the national discourse.
Boy how the British Tories have fallen since…
Of course, the downside of a custom world is that is going to require a lot more world-building to reach the levels of verisimilitude the story already possesses at present. That is potentially a whole lot of extra work for not all that much gain that is unlikely to entirely get rid of the whitewashing allegations either as a lot of historically versed readers are going to pick up on it easily enough.
True though in regard to some light “sex(y)” scenes the problem, insofar as there even is one, is likely to still be Apple, not Steam.
Franco’s Spain is very often described as Fascist and they actively protected and gave citizenship to Eastern European Jews. At first it was only for Spanish citizens or those with Spanish ancestry but that extended to basically anyone who applied for it. Mussolini’s Italy had Jews in prominent positions in the government, helped the Zionists in their struggle to form Israel, and protected and gave rights to the Ethiopian Jews who previously suffered greatly under their Christian and Muslim neighbors. They only began to suffer greatly as the Germans began to exert more and more pressure on Italy. In fact, they weren’t even sent to camps until the formation of the Italian Social Republic. The Greek fascists during 4th of August Regime repealed the anti-Jewish laws that were formally in place. I’m not saying they were champions of Jewish rights but there are examples of these regimes doing more to help the Jews than many other democratic nations. Hence why I don’t think its fair to call excluding anti semitism from a fictional fascist group “whitewashing”.
As for the race part, national identity comes above all for fascists. So yes, if that fascist nation was formed in a European nation that was almost exclusively white and considered a “white nation” they probably would consider other races as not one of them. But theoretically it would be possible, albeit difficult to conceive a fascist nation without racist beliefs. But you would most likely have to form it on some colonized island with no previous inhabitants or something similar.
I’ll stress again for clarification that I am not defending fascism. All I’m trying to do is explain that not all fascist groups and nations were anti semitic, Holocaust supporting, Nazis. Just like not all communists were Stalinist, not all fascists were followers of Nazism.
edit: I also don’t want this thread to turn into bickering or derail it. So I will most likely not be responding to any more replies to this or my previous statement, both for the authors sake, and those coming into the thread. If this post was considered off topic I will delete it but otherwise I thought it was important enough to post if for nothing else then to illustrate my point with regards to my previous post.
Not entirely sure if this came through, what I meant by “legitimate” was that it was a serious position people held and a thing that actually happened.
I agree with the sentiment of conservative enablers escaped unscathed. Heck, many Nazis that were convicted by post-war tribunals were set free well before the end of their sentences.
These are the reasons why I think a plot line looking at conservative enablers of fascism could have a lot of narrative potential.
Hello everyone, glad to see this thread finally reopened. Now, about the paths. I must say that I love this wip precisely because it allows me to see through my character the dangers of extremism. I personally play the new order path, as I can envision myself in the shoes of that MC far better than solidarity and thus would be terribly saddened to see it downplayed or even removed entirely. So I must implore you to consider that such a course would limit and restrict the gameplay (and the playerbase) by quite a bit, it would also destroy interesting stories, which many(myself included) have come to enjoy for what they are; cautionary tales of paramount importance. In conclusion I feel that you should consider the above (if you haven’t already), however if you do not want to I certainly understand your decision.
While I wasn’t initially the greatest fan of the game focusing on the extremes, over time the dichotomy between the two sides – and the fact that they’re both radicals – became one of the more appealing points of the game. As has been mentioned before, I don’t think a shift to the centre by one “side” alone would be beneficial in terms of the light in which both sides will be seen. While the topic of non-racist authoritarian regimes in the 30s in Europe has been discussed already, I think part of the issue comes from how intrinsically Germanically-influenced Moravia is. The DNVP (which is in a way National Bloc’s counterpart) were not only enablers but many were outright sympathisers with the Nazis. My understanding is that many of the German right-wing parties were of a similar bent, and were not “merely” authoritarian/monarchist/revanchist in nature.
While there are those in this thread and forum who are interested in the intricacies of 1930s European politics, the bulk readership may not. While the Germanic influence upon Moravia is a major part, I think, to bringing colour to the street warfare (through the civil strife in Weimar in the 1920-1930s), it would inevitably also colour the lenses of perspectives upon right-wing authoritarianism in Moravia.
Personally, I have no real particular preference, but I feel the dichotomy between both sides is a pretty major part of the game’s identity, for better or worse. I admit I wasn’t initially fond of the choice between two routes, as at least in the early chapters it was largely doubling up (which may have been the point, but it was also less interesting to read than it could have been). Then again, regardless of ideology having two parties would double the workload. While focusing on one side could allow greater examination of it, warts and all, at the same time shifting from two routes to one could seem as a downgrade compared to the currently-available game.
There is some merit to having it set in a fictional universe/alternate history/IRL with the serial numbers filed off, but that’s still not immune to allegations of whitewashing and the like. Less likely than the current context probably and you could adjust it to your needs, but it’s also a lot more work. I wouldn’t be opposed to a shift to a different setting, but I can see how some would.
Ultimately though it’s your decision in the end, and I understand it.
You could always make New Order based on Mosley and his crew more than Benito and Adolf which would tone down the more extreme aspects of the ideology but still provide a interesting counter to the Solidarity path.
A third path dedicated to achieving balance. You eliminate the most extreme aspects of either side when the two sides want to war in the streets you cut both their throats but leaving their activities like feeding the poor or arguing for the workers alone. Ultimately at the end you’re given an chance to join the July 20th Plot.
Thank you for all the responses and honest advice, I knew the decision would not be a popular one but I appreciate all your thoughts as I genuinely am not sure what the solution is.
I do find it rather surprising that some people seem to think I whitewash socialism or the left, given that while playing as Solidarity you engage in illegal violence, murder and intimidation. Additionally, the serious crimes of both sides were only going to occur late game anyway.
Because you have to build up to it. Nobody in their right mind says “Day 1 of my political career… Let’s Lynch someone!” As the game escalates it shows how far either side is willing to go to achieve victory whether they genuinely believe in the message or are trying for power. Though I’ll never know if the fascism side is any different game play wise because I never choose fascism. I’ll still enjoy it. Though if you remove the underground club scene maybe a little less just a tiny bit.
I think its less the idea that you are whitewashing the far left and more that by taking out the fascists for things like genocide and anti semitic behavior while also leaving in the socialists/far left who are also guilty of genocide and anti semitism, it is, whether intentionally or not, saying “this side is the better side” which I think is a little unfair. Both sides were bad and I really enjoyed seeing the prospective from both ends of the spectrum. I fear that by taking out the New Order any semblance of humanity or any explanation of why they do what they do, flawed or not, will be all but thrown out the window. Solidarity will by extension appear more sympathetic.
I really enjoyed how you showed that both sides were bad, but also had their reasons. You showed that while the ideologies are flawed, the followers were also humans like you and me. They had their reasons for what they did and what they believe. I feel that by taking out the New Order path your story will no longer have as strong of an impact or message. But thats just me. Its your story in the end.
I have followed the project for a long time and I am sad you are thinking of taking out the New Order path. I have faith in your ability to write a respectful portrayal of history. And as I said previously, not all fascist parties were Nazis. In the end this is a fascist party of a fictional nation giving you some leeway in how you depict them. You don’t have to make them antisemitic genocidal Nazis. You aren’t whitewashing anything by not portraying them that way.
Anyways, while I am disappointed I still wish you all the best on your project. I have faith in your abilities and I’m sure however you write your story it will turn out well.
It definitely seems like it, if you take out Fascism and keep in Communism then you are inherently censoring the game and white washing European cultural and whitewashing the game. While leaving out all the stuff that is in Communism yet you will keep it.
just a tiny bit.