Haven’t played the yp in ages, but know you can be violent in the solidarity path. Political violence is authoritarian. Plus that is one way to move forward maybe? If solidarity aren’t full on sovietists, but can edge towards that, maybe do NO the same? So they can edge towards Nazism(the extreme of fascism like sovietism is the extreme of communism) or they can edge towards a nationalist conservative ideology but not extreme? As from the knowledge I have the extreme of communism-sovietism is worse than the extreme of fascism-Nazism(at least with regards to examples where communism and fascism were implemented I mean either ideology could be implemented in a more extreme form) sovietism certainly killed more(not including wars) than Nazism and did more damage. Fuck the west is still on a knife’s edge with Russia.
Well unchecked political power is dangerous in whatever hands it may find itself. Ideologically Fascism is still the worse of the two extremist ideologies of the previous century, but that is cold comfort indeed to the victims of the gulag for example.
I don’t think Alex is actually picturing Solidarity as unambiguous “good guys” thus far and Solidarity pulls a lot of criminal crap in-game already. Though of course the mc has some influence to adjust this up or down.
True, the Soviet Union would at minimum have the often uneasy relationship it had with the Yugoslavian government with any Solidarity-led Moravian governments during the cold war era as it seems to stand now.
I hadn’t been trying to say Franco’s Spain wasn’t racist, just that it specifically wasn’t antisemitic, from what I remember. I had said it was heavily nationalistic, which is what most of the overt racism towards Spanish minorities can be attributed to, but since he can have artistic freedom with this WiP (and hasn’t mentioned any targeted minorities of Moravia), he could avoid this. Does it tone down the game? Yes, but I believe it’s better to tone it down than to abandon half of the game. Also NO is still very terrible without any racism added to it, so I don’t think it’s possible to come out of this game with an improved opinion on fascism. Those are my thoughts on the matter.
Also, a good move might be to add a disclaimer at the beginning of the game that says “all characters and events in the game are fictional and do not reflect real life political figures or events in the past.”
To be honest, I wouldn’t say that the Spain of Franco was racist per se. As you say, it was extremely nationalistic, and as such, Franco considered the other languages to be a means to push the independent ideology (regardless of this being true or not).
The reason I say I don’t think it was racist is because I, as a Spanish person, don’t think anyone consider people from Catalonia, or Galicia, or Euskadi or Valencia, or Asturias or, etc etc etc to be a different race or ethnicity. So, is not like there was a conflict of “you are not of the spanish race (?) and as such we discriminate you”, and more of a “your culture is not 100% spanish (which is obviously ridiculous since all the cultures in Spain is what makes Spanish culture be what it is) and that must be purge, starting with your language”.
The only racism would be towards gypsies, and this was (is) not a exclusive thing of fascism, republicans were as racist as fascists when it came to the gypsy people.
exactly but I think he was racist; the issue is inquisition did job to make not jews or Muslims live here. And he couldn’tattack people from Sahara that was key to early days war.
But his speech was anti-Semitic. All his obsession with masonry being in pact with Semites etc… The religion laws were a joke etc… If spain had had a big Jewish population…
Please do not cut out the New Order and if it makes you uncomfortable right it good reason it should. But it’s an important perspective a show and not be divorced from the setting. And also honestly shows how men can become monsters. And not necessarily even show any equal playing field so you’re showing why people with be seduced by it and what it would look like within that framework of a Time. So please keep it in!
I completely agree the NO path is an important part of the story and removing it would only harm the game.
Honestly What made Divided we fall so powerfull was the use of perspectives giving you the glimse into the situation, If you cut out NO path imho not only you are letting yourself be influenced by current situation, altering art because of modern situation(If you were uncomfortable just by potraying them there wouldnt be IMHO fascist perspective in Divided we fall, nor would you start this game with intent to develop both paths) Thing is Depiction is not endorsement.
I think this says it better then i could https://imgur.com/dWMFlAw
Point being You didnt whitewash it, You showed why people followed that ideology. Fascism inst Blood for the Blood god, No one would follow that. Yes you created Symphatetic Fascists characters, That doesnt mean you endorse it. What made this game so powerfull was that the message wasnt showed in your face but was subtle, If you remove NO path Imho it will be just another todays topical games. I honestly can say That you did well so far and your method off education was effective BECAUSE it let player understand the reasons. It Didnt yell YOU ARE THE BADDIE YOU ARE BADDIE. it let you catch yourself, rather than beating it over your head it let players to get into it and THEN confront them.
Hey! @AlexClifford1994 I am so glad you’ve not given up on this game, I can’t wait to meet all your wonderful characters again (more specifically, I can’t absolutely wait to see what happens after we romance them ) .
Regarding the NO path debate, I must admit that I, for one, as an Italian, am so glad that the fascist path is being taken out, since this game is so immersive it made me so uncomfortable (especially considering the rise of Neo-nazis here).
That being said, I do also hope this whole debate is not going to end with the mods closing the thread again.
@AlexClifford1994 if you are not comfortable doing ( or well writing ) something, Do not do it. Know that we will encourage and support you either way
I think I have your solution, Alex:
Disclaimer: This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events, locales, and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.
Just put that in, and shift the thesis of the story towards answering “what if” questions, rather than politics or history.
First, let me say that I’m glad that you got such a thoughtful response from Jason on a tough issue.
Anyway. I would like to make a slightly offbeat suggestion. (Disclaimer: I have some limited personal experience with the Occupy movement.) I recommend that the PC be limited to Solidarity (which would be a good idea anyway, as otherwise you’re writing two entirely different games for the price of one), but that Solidarity be reworked as something other than a Communist movement. Wulf should remain as she is - a hardline direct-action Communist - but while Wulf and the central committee can be a “vanguard party,” why not have Solidarity as a whole be a somewhat-disorganized movement of the working class without clear agreement on objectives, and allow the player to define their political objectives and favored tactics? As the game goes on and Solidarity translates into a proper party (and Wulf is probably slated for exit), the player will have a chance to define Solidarity’s ultimate role in the system - independent communist? Ally with any of the three major parties? Riot in the streets, play politics in Parliament, or prepare for a popular revolution? Just make sure to prevent the fascists from hijacking your movement.
For inspiration, you could look at the historical Solidarity (a conservative-labor alliance between unions and the Church) and the current 5 Star Movement in Italy (a populist movement with no clear agenda, which has currently been hijacked by the fascists they’re in coalition with).
The New Order can be redone as pure fascist assholes with all the racism and nationalism - and trust me, you cannot turn fascists into a caricature, because the real thing will be worse than anything you could make.
@eVe but that is the purpose here that uncomfortability, It makes you uncomfortable with Fascism. So it serves its purpose. And you mention Rise of Neonazis, but should we really allow them this power over us ? to be afraid of them to change our works of art and let them get into our heads ? or should we be defiant and spit in their faces ?
@Ramidel Hoe exactly is your involvement with Occupy relevant there ?. Also Disoorganized Movement that simultaneously has power to become Sole ruler ? It really doesnt fit Imho.
As for the terminology Wulf itself is Intelectual not working class and many in there are so Termin of Working class doesnt fit. The thing with Alex is that he already built a brand With Divided we fall, where he had Republicans and Fascists, So not only it would be in certain sense downgrade, but it would be clear Capitulation to fear, He would in essence be turning Fascists into Voldermort, when in fact so far he done excelent job of making you understand fascists while making you uncomfortable with them, I believe subtler messaging works better. And Going Full on With Fascists With Slurs and all might be very uncomfortable for some people, Ironically more uncomfortable than now IMHO without having player realize the message by themselves and thus being more effective.
The idea that fascism can be meaningfully separated from ethnic supremacy is an idea that fascist groups today are trying to promote. There isn’t anything defiant about playing into their propaganda. When this game was first being made that wasn’t an issue. You can argue that it’s worth it to keep the new order path in, but don’t act like depicting fascists as they want to be depicted is defiant.
Frankly, don’t be too stressed about it. I will buy and enjoy the game regardless of what choice you make! It plays very fun, and I have been enjoying it so far.
So, don’t be stressed, write what you want, and have fun… your fun bleeds through into the game and is part of why it’s fun for us!
Speaking as an ardent leftist myself, I quite enjoyed playing as a New Order MP, just like in previous games I’ve enjoyed playing as a gangster, a crooked thief-taker, a regicidal schemer, a vampire, a dragon, an evil sorcerer, a mad scientist, and several supervillains.
It’s only a game, after all. It’s not a commentary on your actual character to role play a scumbag.
Please format your post better, I can’t read it with all the random capitalization and misspellings.
I am not a right person However, I hate role play as communists not for the ideology. for what means That have to be a pro workers I don’t like role play as a proletariat poor as a rat and with the charisma of a potato that only things in fight and break heads.
That’s a problem with the depiction of Communism in games. Even here The fascist seems far more subtle than communists part. Having account both systems should be equal design. Maybe let players NOT be a communist in a communist party be someone that is there for other reasons from spy to power.
The fact is i found solidarity boring and a bunch of brainless zombies. Maybe could be used new order people just putting them as communists. ?
Personally i don’t feel that at all, the Solidarity MC is quite charming and alluring in a way because i can do lots of actions, both naive and ideological decision as the Solidarity MC… like i can choose to clap and support the Queen , help both the union and the actress Lou to continue the filming , and help form a Grand Coalition with my reasoning skill… and not to mention the interaction with Lou is very intriguing Generally , the Solidarity MC is the perfect idealist of the game , trying to enforce a compromise unity for everyone … hey i even tried to parley with Hertha , but ultimately she was too stubborn with her stand
I am not idealist and nor play as one I am cynical and play as a subtle charismatic power hungry. Maybe that’s my problem with communism portrait in games They as portrait as IDEALISM i hate playing as idealist for me is most boring thing in planet same level as paladin or monk.