United We Stand - Political WIP

btw I’m joking, i know fascism isn’t better (and is in some ways worse) than communism . I was just trying to point out neither ideology could be considered “good”.


When this goes live, the Red side will be a completely new experience. :wink:

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Of course any kind of extremism tends to be very bad, particularly in politics. Still in this game and particularly from the pov of my mc the social democrats have had their chance and blew it.


Well thing is, when you take the ideology at its base, its nothing but equalitarism so when you compare it to fascism that encourage stuff like mass murders and segregations in its rawest forms then the choice become really easy to people like me.

Like okay lets compare fascists regimes to the soviet union to begin. And I dont mean stalin soviet union, when Stalin took over it switched from socialism to actual fascism. Stalin openly critisized socialism and Lenin as early as 1909. The worst that happenend when the revolution happenend was an uncontroled mob. Bad stuff happenend and people got attacked because they wore fancy clothes, making them look like capitalists. That was horrible but it wasnt something that was encouraged by the communists, it was the mob because thats what happen when a huge number of starved and angry people get the chance to make someone pay. Hell Lenin was born from a rich family himself and was against those atrocities.

Hitler crushed the brown shirts to make the national socialists look less violent than they actualy are so their violent agenda would pass better and openly encouraged hate to be done by his followers.

Mussolini on his side caused some of the most distgusting war crimes in ethiopia and against the socialists in italy and in the end he still received death threats from his own party members because they believed he didnt kill enough people yet and that lead to him ordering the murder of a priest who supported the social democrats.

You can say castro did gross stuff but in the end he have a way lower bodycount than the dude that was there before and that one was openly supported by the US so yeah. The US also supported Papa doc because he was anti-communism. Papa doc sold his own people organs on the black market btw.

Alberto Fujimori, peruvian president, was also supported by the US because of his strong anti communist stance. Dude ended up in prison for crime against humanity. He controlled a huge part of the cocaine market in america and is remembered as a human cancer.

I dont even want to talk about Pinochet too. Dude was backed by the US and again, is remembered as one of the biggest monster that existed but somehow being anti communism erased all that.

I could also talk about how every socialist nations that ever existed was under constant assault from the outside for no reason other than their socialist ideology or how capitalism killed the middle east because they got socialist too but I only have 5% of my phone battery left so I’m just going to let this here. Btw starvation in china alway existed so comparing the starvation under Mao to the holocaust is pretty gross too.

Oh and look up Duplessis too. Dude was a monster but hey anti communist again.


I’m having visions of my notifications lighting up through the night as the communism v fascism debate rears it’s ugly head again so I’m going to try and draw the line here. There’s a huge number of arguments and counter arguments through this thread so if you’ve got a point, chances are it’s already been made. I’m not having a go at anyone and I know it’s a juicy debate, I just don’t think anyone is going to change minds in this particular format so we’ll just end up going round in circles like we have before on this thread.

@ruhenri you’re more than welcome to look at the code, I’m not sure how you do it but I’m sure there’s a thread on the witchcraft that let’s you do it

@urban eagle eyed! Good spot, the truth behind it is I’m not sure how it’ll effect the story so if and when I decide that I’ll add a variable.

@Eiwynn what is the potential continuity error? If it’s a spoiler maybe message me?

Oh thanks. I found a thread that explained the process. It is surprisingly simple. And I like your coding style, really easy to read the game/book from there. My code is a big mess when compared to your style. Already had the time to check yours and a few others. It is a great learning tool. Thanks for letting me take a peak.

I don’t have much interest in the far-right path, but I will take a look in order to give some feedback.

I have a very particular take on that matter. In the end politics is (or should be) about ideas. Being poor or not having an academic education doesn’t equal lack of competence in politics.

A minister isn’t supposed to have technical competence (with the exception of the treasury minister), he only needs to be capable of educate himself about the country’s reality that he is supposed to manage and elaborate measures to improve things according to his ideal society and taking in consideration the realm of political possibility.

If we start demanding superior education from our high level politicians we start to destroy what democracy and democratic politics should be.

Our defence ministers aren’t required to have a military background, why should we impose that kind of limitations to others?

Just look at the example of Lula da Silva. Poor background, no high eduation and he was President. Brazilian poor strata saw their lifes getting much better, and the country’s economy had a great increase.

So don’t think too much of it my comrade, Moravian workers will reach the promissed Utopia under your leadership!!! :stuck_out_tongue:

Yes, but that’s the president the guy with all the access to the media that can be wielded against an obstinate or uncooperative civil service.

That wasn’t what I was getting at, the poor mc can be a charismatic, populist master at winning elections, but that does not translate automatically into an understanding of government and competence at governing, unfortunately.

We do demand it, in practice, typically around here only college graduates are considered by all major parties to fill the major ministries. The exceptions being the deputy minister for foreign aid, the deputy for sports and culture, if he is a heavy hitter the normal ministerial portfolio of education sports and culture tends to get reduced to just sports and culture, with education given to an extra minister (or if you will sports and culture being parceled out to an extra minister), state (which in our case basically means touring the overseas departments, territories and dependent countries) and very rarely, general affairs (which is the PM department and thus the post of PM itself, but not that over here the PM formally is primus inter pares, which tends to be more true if he or she doesn’t have a fancy education).
In general ministers without a college degree (though it need not be in the field in which their ministry specializes) tend to get the short end of the stick around here and ministers without sufficient education or technical knowledge tend to be at a decided disadvantage versus the career civil service they are supposed to lead.
Basically such things can devolve into a case of “Yes (prime) minister” very quickly and while my mc here may not have much formal education he’s probably smart enough to know that and extremely distrustful of the career civil service to boot as they probably aren’t known for their left-wing sympathies (much as they weren’t around here during the 1930’s).

Curiously the modern defense ministries are also an exception due to the strong preference for nominal, civilian oversight, making it the only ministry where lack of knowledge and experience is considered a pro for appointment, instead of a con. But do not it has only been that way since the 1950’s or after WWII, before that we had a war department headed by a (retired) general.
So I guess it could be either way in Moravia.

Why do you think mr. Wilders and mr. Farage to name just two, as well as Trump in the US are so successful raging against the “elites”?
The default requirement for higher education in government has become a bit of a conundrum at present, though it wasn’t very different in the 1930’s, just less visible as ministers without fancy educations have always been very rare around here and even when they were around they tended to get shoved off into joke positions, again with only a couple of exceptions.
The way out of the current conundrum would probably involve recognition that college, for most people at least, is the new high-school as the complexity of our society increases.
Though I rather doubt my mc in this game has even completed highschool.
Of course if he’s intelligent and a good reader he could educate himself, but that’s going to take years of time we simply don’t have.

Although I maybe a bit biased on the subject I feel the Justice minister ought to be an “exception” there as well as nobody without a thorough understanding of at least the basics of constitutional and international law as well as the lawmaking process and the operation of the courts is going to be able to do a decent job of it.

In-game, let’s just say there is a reason my mc didn’t openly challenge Wulf in the interview. :wink:

But does an high college degree translates into an understanding of government or competence at governing? If it did, maybe Europe wouldn’t be in the swamp right now.

Your poor and charismatic pc can be an incompetent minister, but my middle class brooder pc can be in the exact same situation. Being a good teacher doesn’t make a good education minister. In Portugal our last justice minister was a former high level prosecuter. But her term was highly destructive of our judicial system, and some of her legislation was even vetoed by the supreme court for being unconstitutional.

We do. And we are standing in the hedge of the cliff. Being educated doesn’t mean being a good governor or having better political ideas.

Yes, you are right about that one.

That is indeed a problem… @AlexClifford1994 is something like that going to be adressed? Or is the game too big already?

By the way, @AlexClifford1994 is our background going to influence the possibility of becoming a member of the cabinet? And which positions will be available to us?

One more question if I may. How much of the parliament is elected by the inhabitants of the Moravia City? And are there any other urban centers worthy of note in the rest of Moravia?

And I just want to be sure, is Solidarity indeed blacklisted by our soviet brothers? My hard line red pc got really sad when confronted by that info. I guess we just need a good old purge to rid the working class movement from Solidarity’s social-fascist leadership (malefic laugh…)

You aren’t from Brazil, right? Because that is not the truth.

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You from there then @Urban? If so what’s your take on it?

A look out of the window tells me I can’t really argue with that. :disappointed:

No, it doesn’t, what it does do is give you an edge over an uneducated person in your position and the truth has always been that those who are good at winning elections can be very bad at actually governing anything. Cue the civil service, but of course if most of its personnel or even just its top members are hostile to your politics…
I think if most civil servants in Moravia are either right-wing conservative or religious, much as our real-life ones were at the same time period, the mood at any government ministry my mc might run could likely best be described as “trench warfare”. While my mc may be (relatively) uneducated he’s quite intelligent, enough so to know when something is amiss, but alas not educated enough to actually fix it.

Indeed good political ideas do not require (much) formal education merely an agile mind, charisma even less so.
Which reminds me of something our green party did actually discuss back when I was a political aide and that was to hire specialists with party funds to support our candidates, primarily those with lesser educations, giving them access to specialised counsel that would be more trustworthy. Sadly no Dutch political party, except maybe mr. Wilders with his funds from Israel and the US is wealthy enough to do so in numbers enough to make a real difference.
Of course we and most other parliamentary systems, including Moravia one would assume, tend to have relatively few political appointees in the diplomatic corps and civil service, which has its ad and disadvantages. The US certainly proves that having more political appointees certainly isn’t a panacea either.

But who knows, maybe Solidarity can get the funds to furnish my mc with a staff of specialised political aides he can trust, though probably not.

And it is of course the most influential post after the PM and treasury and those three combined are enough to for all intents and purposes control the day to day operations of the government.
My mc getting either of those three is probably slim and he would likely flat-out refuse sports and culture.

Its current leader is, though given that his views are mainly Democratic Socialist my mc will probably get on the same blacklist as Wulf soon in Stalin’s Soviet Union.

If it is party list proportional with no minimum percentage barriers then Freistadt would elect around 25% of MP’s as that’s its rough share of country’s population, I believe.

Yes, I am. My take is that Lula and his party PT (Partidos dos Trabalhadores, it can be translated to Worker’s Party) destroyed Brazil’s economy with several corrupt schemes (like the “Mensalão”) and because of that we have one of the biggest economic crysis of our country history (12 millions of people unemployed, recession of 7%, high rate of inflation, etc).

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Weren’t they elected in reaction to the extreme corruption and neglect of the poorer segment of Brazil’s population by its Liberals and Conservatives?

@Urban, no I am not from Brazil, I am portuguese. If you are brazilian your intake on the situation would be much apreciated, but I believe that the numbers don’t lie.

During his government brazilian GDP had an increase of 4% by year (average), the unemployment was cut by half, the extreme poverty went down by 60% and the middle class grew in number. Many Brazilians that had been forced to emigrate to countries like Portugal went back to their homeland.

Did he made mistakes? Of course. He didn’t solved the huge corruption problem, being himself part of the problem. He based the economy in the extractive industry which enabled the huge crisis Brazil is living today, and so on.

But the wrongs don’t destroy the good things. When he left the presidency Brazil had a growing economy, half the levels of unemployment, half the levels of extreme poverty and had seen the middle class growing in number. The huge level of popularity that he had when he left office (if my memory serves me right about 70 or 80%) shows that Brazil was in a much better shape.

But as I said, I only have some data and the reports of some brazilian friends. Feel free to correct me or the numbers.

We don’t need funds my comrade brother, we have the course of history by our side!!! :stuck_out_tongue:

My canon pc would like to have parliamentary affairs (I don’t know if other countries besides Portugal have this), Labour, Welfare or Culture.

You and me both :cry:

I might be seeing Moravia’s political reality as if it was still in the late XIX century, but how can National Bloc fail to have absolute majority with roughly 50-70% of rural conservative population? And aren’t Solidarity and New Order almost exclusively based in the capital? But they have more than 25% of the deputies.

They were.

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Yes, turned out they did the same thing only in a large scale while making a few populist benefits that did not solve the problem of the poor but made them happy for a time, until the crysis came.

They did not solve the problem of the poor, but they did a great job. It is impossible to solve poverty levels of 30 or more percent in 15 years.

That is the same as if we Europeans said that social democracy’s achievments in the post war don’t count because with the crisis we are once again in a swamp.

And I guess we went a bit far from the thread’s focus. Sorry about that @AlexClifford1994, but political games tend to do that :smiley:

@Urban in the name of not testing more of Alex’s patience I will rest my case. But feel free to reply. Diversity of opinions is what makes democracy. (we can also continue this by PM if you want to). :wink:

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The probable answer is that there are likely more small(er) towns and cities who between them hold maybe another 20 to 30% of the population and have more diverse voting patterns.


Well, that is indeed a good answer. Thanks.

The liberal’s votes have to come from somewhere, after all. :wink:

Maybe we’ll get to do some campaigning there to expand Solidarity’s vote during the election season.


I will send you a pm when I’m not at work, and in portuguese will be easier to answer.

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