The Lion, the Bear and the Dragon (Working Title)

Hosted Games Works In Progress
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Yeah, though I’m kinda pissed that COG doesn’t let me do the chinese tones. Because that would be perfect.

Also in terms of Geography, Llewn controls North+South America, Western Europe (Up to Germany) and Most of Africa. Longe controls Asia, Ocenia, and two areas in Africa, the Horn of Africa and the Cape of Good Hope.
Medven controls Russia, Eastern Europe, and the Middle East. There are a few no man lands: Afghanistan (Even in this world it’s impossible to conquer) The Sahara is very much owned by Nomads. Certain Mountain ranges are considered impossible to go over.

So Blacks were a shock when first encountered, but after so long they are less of a shock. Still doesn’t mean they aren’t discriminated against. Just remember that China has had a much more open foreign policy then what happened in history.

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@Drazen Point. Thanks for the clarification.

That said, it does strike me as something that would factor in more heavily towards the solemn end. Not just because of our ultra-(post?) modern sensitivities and realizations of racism, but also because of those at the time and simple gameplay mechanics.

It seems like it would not just be something passing in a relatively lighthearted way, but also something that would play an important and deadly serious role in a lot of things. Not just as a Black in Llwen or a “native” in their or Medvedian service facing prejudice, but also because it was one of the easiest ways to tell where you were from (with of course a lot of flaws), and like I mentioned could get you killed if you weren’t lucky. That strikes me as something more important to the game play than flavor text dealing with those issues.

@MadWolf023

Thanks for the clarification. Now this sounds even more like my RP than before! (right up to the geographic splits)1

Understood. It makes sense when you clarify Longe’s policies like that. Considering the number of ways the “Middle Kingdom” has assimilated groups into it and historical people like Zheng He and Yasuke (yes, that’s Japan, but similar culture overall that answered to Chinese hegemony), it looks like it would have a lot of potential.

As a note, though: Afghanistan’s inconquerability is really, really, really overstated, almost to the point it’s a bit of an annoying cliche IMHO. Alexander conquered it very thoroughly, the Persians did likewise, and the British actually did as well for most of this period (after the botch up of the First Afghan War). They only withdrew when they figured it wasn’t worth the cost.

Considering the successes they had elsewhere, and Russia and Chinese successes pacifying and assimilating the Muslim borderlands in their areas, I also figure a major reason why they didn’t get it was because of being more concerned with things at home and simply not getting to it before the British did.

Out of curiosity, you ever hear or read the book “The Death of the Vazir Mukhtair”?

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@Turtler. Yes, I do have a lot of choices where if you are black then you remember more things about certain race riots then other students. Also, if you are Black, it is harder to be accepted by the Llewn elite. Your character often mentions how lucky he/she is to have lived to this day. In fact a certain path will get you killed if you are black, but the other two races (White and Tan for now) won’t get you killed.

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@Madwolf023 I don’t know, it seems like the Blacks are being treated a little superficially. The righteous Longe, condemning the evil Llwen, who’s oppressed slaves had to flee to benevolent Medvedian? Seems a little caricatured; the sort of thing you’d see in Post-colonial studies.

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@Madwolf023
How far into Longe’s internal politics can we get? Late-Qing China was rather famous for being a colossal clusterf**k, with Manchu power plays on top of Han power plays on top of the Taiping Rebellion on top of Cixi’s reign and the various reform movements on top of increasing foreign encroachment.

It almost makes British Parliamentary Democracy sound simple in contrast. I could imagine that half the work of throwing the foreigners and their outlandish ways out of the Celestial and Eternal Empire would herding, cajoling and poisoning the various faction representatives until they (or their replacements) all agree with you.

Also, wasn’t Britain one of the first western countries to ban the slave trade?

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@Madwolf023

Understandable, and I like that level of detail. I’d just be careful to keep it equal. To borrow from the (downright wonderful) history of The Great Game, the African slave trade up to the region ensured there were a number of Blacks native to the population that many people weren’t really surprised to see. So at least if you were them or Indian (or someone else native to the region) you had a decent chance of-say- not being picked out for the local genocidal racist or being caught in an omnicidal anti-spy sweep.

In contrast, Whites or East Asians stood out like a sore thumb, and if you were there without the territory being secured by you, without strong protection, and/or connections your life expectancy was probably abysmal. You were that easy to pick out and could get picked off easily.

Also, you might be interested to know on the subject of Medved that the greatest Russian poet- Pushkin- was actually Afro-Russian, and the son of a Black Russian General (who got picked up from Muslim troops during one of the periodic wars there).

That said, I do think you are overplaying them and their prominance in the region a fair bit. If this were something about Africa or a fantasy equivalent of that it would make a lot more sense. However, it’s really, really hard to understate how far the distances were and comparatively few they were. The differences between being Punjabi or Iranian (who are apparently “Tan”) were probably a lot more prominent than those between being Black or… not black for this subject matter.

Granted, you might be adapting the situation differently so that there is a (Far) higher proportion of Blacks are in the region, and that would change things. But I’m just going by ear now.

I also think you might also be overplaying the “Llwen hates Blacks” card a bit much. Yes, I expect there to be a loooot of racial intolerance hanging around. However, as Drazen and Cataphrak both noted Britain was also *the* mother of Abolition (not just abolishing its’ own trade, but downright waging war against the entire Middle East, Portugal, Spain, and Brazil in order to force them to abandon theirs). Which means that we’ve already seen a major shift in values that slavery is an (/the) inhuman atrocity (that it was).

Ya, familiarity breeds contempt but I’d also say it (paradoxically) breeds acceptance, and I’d probably rather take my chances as a Black in Victorian (Liberal, Democratic, Capitalist) Britain than I would in Longe or Russia.

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@Drazen I’m trying not to. In fact, at this point I’d say I have it so that the Blacks are actually well disliked more for their skin. I guess I might fall into some traps like that, but the Medvedian are not at all benevolent. Nor the Longe happy that they have to have the Blacks. But I’m getting ahead of myself. What I’m trying to say is that what I say here is just the surface. There is a whole world of political intrigue that contradicts itself, because that is what politics do. I guess I’m trying to say that for now, nothing is truly as it seems.
Except the fact that the three nations are pretty much on edge with eachother.

@Turtler. I’m sorry, I missed your question the first time.
No I haven’t that book. And I’m glad you understood my little jest about Afghanistan unconquerability. My thoughts were more like it was intentionally left a no man zone because it bordered both Medved and Longe. The terrain makes it the perfect buffer. No one could move an army through there without the other side knowing. But Afghanistan is imensely conquerable. I even have the map of Alexander’s conquests in my room to prove it. But another thing is that Afghanistan isn’t worth a war, as you pointed out. That’s why the British didn’t fully conquer it.

@Cataphrak They were. And I’m merely trying to create a source of tension in the game. There is a whole other world underneath what I’m going into now. I don’t want to ruin the story, but yes there will be the whole clusterf**k of politics in general. Though I’m not going to have one more complex then any of the others, they will each present unique challenges.

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@Cataphrak The largest anti-slavery force in human history, - the Royal Navy.

@Madwolf023 “That’s why the British didn’t fully conquer it.” I thought that had more to do with the arid desert, coupled with meddling Russians, and some frankly atrocious tribes.

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@Drazen I’m sure that had something to do with it. But you have to remember the British Armed Forces at that time would be ranked around what America is today. They far outclassed every other nation in war techniques. The two problems were that they didn’t have the population to fund a war effort to try and conquer the world and that they lacked the desire to do so. Britain and the Netherlands were unique in colonizing in that their only goals were to make money. They didn’t care how it happened, they just wanted it. The Spanish and French, however, were more about Christenizing the foreigners and (especially in terms of the French) trying to keep up with the British.

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@Madwolf023 I think the abolition of the slaves, the treatment of conquered peoples, such as the Boers, and the general development of the colonies, somewhat opposes that point. If greed and exploitation was their modus operandi, they wouldn’t have held India with only 65k men (most of whom were Indian).

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@Drazen In fairness, the Royal Navy was probably also the largest or one of the largest slaving forces in human history. Since they were at war with the major maritime nations they got control of the colonies and the sea lanes, and they thus got dominance over the (massive and nightmarish) Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade. Which was part of the reason why they became so powerful in breaking it up after the policies changed.

Also, if it were just the arid desert, meddling Russians, and brutally effective tribes the British Empire would probably have planted the boot down on it hard. Ditto the Russians if they got their first (switching out “Meddling Russians” for “Meddling British.”). But it really was just viewed as being so wildly disproportionate between the costs it would take to keep and govern and the benefits.

Also, I think you might be overstating it in general. Of course Greed and Exploitation were modus operandis of the British Empire, like I’d say they were of plenty of other Empires, as Madwolf has said. I just think- like you’re saying- they weren’t the *only* MOs of the British. By a long shot.

@Madwolf023 I understand. Thanks for the clarification regarding the ethnic issues. I’m just glad you’re trying to avoid falling into traps like it, because I think that’s probably most of the struggle. Have faith, keep it up, and you’ll make it work!

Anyway, the reason I mentioned the book was because I think it might give you food for thought. It covers a Russian embassy in Persia trying to squeeze war reparations out of the Persians following a military victory, and dealing with inter personal problems on the staff, Persian politics, and rivalry with the British embassy. It’s actually a good read on its’ own merits, so you might like it.

Now that is fascinating. I hadn’t heard of a map of Alexander’s conquest of Afghanistan. It’s usually treated as sort of a footnote at best. Do you remember where you got it? I’d be really interested in checking it out.

Also, I am not sure at all that the British were only geared towards making money. If that were the case, I’m not sure half of the Napoleonic Wars or things like WWI, the Crimean War, or a lot of the modern colonization they did would have “fit.” Part of the reason India was the Jewel in the Crown was because it was one of the few that actually broke even and helped pay for the other money sinks. So we’d probably have-in game, like in reality- various differences between the lobbies between those who believe they have the “Great Civilizing Duty”, the pragmatists who want to turn a profit, and the like.

Beyond that though, I do think you’ve pegged Britain’s military and technological strengths very well, as well as those for a lot of the others.

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I got Alexanders map from a History teacher of mine. So I have no idea where you could find it. As for the British gearing towards money, perhaps I worded that incorrectly. Colonization was for the economy (i.e. money) rather then converting the Natives, or land/
First, why else build the railroad system throughout their empire? It made organization of the economy so much easier.
Second, the British Army was made of Indian soldiers in India: the reason was because they were cheaper then transporting British troops
Third, the British Policy of first Trade with their colonies. Britian required nations to provide resources to them first.
Fourth, the wars they participated in were to maintain balance of power. As an ally of everyone, but friend of none, that allowed them to openly trade with every nation.
Fifth, and what I believe is the most important one, the East Indian Trading Company. The real first International business. The reason they were so powerful was the fact that Britain needed them to be. They facilitated trade (and thus the economy) for Britain.
Sixth, the location of Britains colonies. They were all at sea ports. Most people don’t realize that Britain might have claimed 25% of the Earth’s landmass as their own, but they kept on the coasts and rivers. This was because the trade revenue brought in.

(Except Austrailia. Because Australia was a prison colony)

But all this is kinda why I’m focusing on an alternative universe. Because truthfully: You ask ten historians the reasons for half of the actions different people have taken, and depending on what it is you get five different answers. In an alternative universe I can smooth over the fact that the British (Llewn) had slavery much later then they did in the real world. Or why the nations are focused in different ways. Or, most importantly, the motivations of different people. Though I do intend on making events subjective. The same event occurring, depending on your background or what nation you are in, that all is seen through different eyes.

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@madwolf023

“I got Alexanders map from a History teacher of mine. So I have no idea where you could find it.”

I hear. Thanks anyway for that.

“As for the British gearing towards money, perhaps I worded that incorrectly. Colonization was for the economy (i.e. money) rather then converting the Natives, or land”

Agreed with that overall. Probably a combination of that and some ideological pressures, but moreso (especially in the early years) the former.

Also in addition to Indian troops being cheaper, it also was viewed as a convenient way to A: assimilate them, B: Get people who knew the terrain and potential enemies better, and C: divide and conquer. Better to take units from one area of India and stick them somewhere they’re not going to relate to locals (like how the Bengal army was primarily Northern Indians assigned as an army of occupation to what’s now Indian Bengal and Bangladesh).

At this time they did openly trade with most nations, but that was because it was in a lull during the major wars. They certainly made sure to shut dedicated enemies out from trade (like France before, and Germany and Russia later). So it was a mite bit more complicated than that, but that’s a good understanding of it overall.

As for them all having sea ports, that isn’t really the case even other than Australia. I agree it was certainly emblematic of the earliest colonies they founded, but that was similar to just about everybody and they spent huge amounts of blood and effort carving inland (like they did to seize North America in the French-Indian War, to bring Northern India under their control, and to carve the Cape-to-Cairo railroad through and over the Boers, Zulu, Madhists, and Germans). Ports tended to be more where they started the process rather than the complete end of their ambitions.

“But all this is kinda why I’m focusing on an alternative universe. Because truthfully: You ask ten historians the reasons for half of the actions different people have taken, and depending on what it is you get five different answers.”

Lol. So true! I can sympathize with you (and somewhat envious that you’re only getting five answers out of the ten), and I figure that is probably the best policy. Ultimately, this is your baby. So you get the final cut to decide, and I think you should generally go with whatever you judge to be best.

Drazen, Cataphrak, myself, and the others are just here to try and help you along with that. Don’t forget that, ok?

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“Drazen, Cataphrak, myself, and the others are just here to try and help you along with that. Don’t forget that, ok?”

Or else…

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I mean look at us. From what I’ve heard I can tell that you two are well versed in history. And I hope you think the same of me. But we still have our differences of opinion. Especially when it comes to British Colonization. And part of it is our upbringing, part of it might be just how we view the world. So that’s what drives me in this project. Because I don’t want to create a world with one view. I want people like you to look at it and insert your own opinions. There is going to be a path where I will sugar coat a lot of these things. But on different paths you’ll see some harsh truths. Some paths will contradict each other. And I want the player to go through the world and piece together the history. And @turtler I totally agree with you on that your trying to help. And you are. By adding these different viewpoints through arguing debating asking questions I can create a world that be seen through the eyes of different people and start to form the project into what I want it to be. An interactive experience where there is no two paths one must take. Instead there are dozens/hundreds of paths, some similar some radically different.

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One little mistake in military philosophy and suddenly, everyone’s underestimating the French. A couple of points I want to bring up:

First of all, how much effort are you putting into crafting the world? Historically, England developed the way they did because they are isolated in an island and didn’t really have all that fertile land that the other Great Powers had, prompting them toward policies that encourage trade for their wealth. Lower agricultural output also meant a lower overall population, making their choice of quality over quantity a no brainer. And of course, we musn’t forget about the great abundance of easily-accessible coal in England, which played no small part in jump starting the industrial revolution. Is this what happened to the western empire in your world? Also, the establishment of global empires in our world was hampered for millenia by a lack of technological progress in communication and transportation. What is the technological progress in your world? How long has this level of technology been around? This will certainly have a big impact on how well-integrated the empires are.

A second major point I would like to make is a suggestion for not setting your game too broad. What kind of a story are hoping to tell? Why is it important for you to tell this story? Unless this is an open-world game in vein of gta or minecraft, keeping your story-telling focused makes the player care more about your story and keeps them more engaged.

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@hahaha01357
Four mistakes in military philosophy, actually (Using the Mitrailleuse as field artillery, Believing elan could substitute for firepower, the well-known “Leave a giant 'kick me sign” in between our fixed fortifications and our army" of May 1940), and designing armour solely as infantry support, just off the top of my head.

@Madwolf023
hahaha01537 kinda has a point regarding how broad you want to make your game. You might want to consider making this into a series, or separate games for each path.

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Alexandros conquered Afganistan and a greek realm was instaled at least 200 years . There is a myth in Afganistan about the cursed gold of Alexandros each time a xtranger touch the gold they are defeated. In spanish that realm was called Batracia ? i have to reread Alexandros history again. no idea english there are rest of them in afganistan museum but i dont start yet , my greek subjects yet so i could not be totally acurate.

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@hahaha01537 and @Cataphrak you both might be right about making too large of a world. I might have gotten a tiny bit ahead of myself.
Also the French have many more: The Battle of Aigincourt where they charged heavy Calvary on muddy roads directly at longbow men. The Battle of Trafalgar (Though really this covers most of the French naval tactics over the years.) Their ships were too heavy. They had focused on landing the armies, not destroying a fleet. Their ships were not made to stand against the British fleet that was faster/smaller. The importance of the smaller ships was where the damage was being done. The French ships damaged the masts, an important part of the ship, but by no means a fatal blow. The British damaged the hull of the ship just above the waterline. This meant the French ships sank. Of course France never did learn from that. In fact these were the same tactics used by the Spanish Armada (which many people dont realize was a combined Spanish and French effort). Sure the French had fancier guns, but their tactic was still the same: boarding enemy ships. So its less of a military tactical failure, and more of Why havent they updated a strategy that clearly failed 300 years ago and hasnt been proven to work since? Oh, and if we’re talking about disasters, The French in Indo-China (Vietnam). Yeah that didn’t end well.

Now, away from the French to the actually game itself. @haha01537, you are absolutely correct about what you say. However, I guess if you were to ask me the major point in history where the game diverges from that world to my world, it is the 100 year war. Instead of a French victory, I envision that the English king who was to take the throne of France successfully did so instead of having the French Nobility stop him. United, this allows the Empire of Llewn to jump start a technological bid. Soon afterwards the Llewn make huge technological breakthroughs after breakthroughs in terms of Military Might (particularly gunpowder). This brings the rest of the Western Europe to its knees. However the Kingdom of Medved manages to hold out. So the Llewn move Westward. There they find the “new” world, and boom, manage to subjecated it within twenty years. This happens within a hundred year period. I then decided that the abundance of coal allowed them to study the effects of coal, and in doing so, jump started the steam power era. Also the discovery of electricity let them place down telegraph lines down, connecting their empire. This occurs about fifty years after the conquest of the Americas. In the mean time the Llewn empire has been securing allies in Africa and the Middle East. The Subsaharan African Empire of the Zulu (name to be changed) became their largest allies and trade partners.

Go over to the Longe Empire. Instead of the Constant civil wars, the Han Dynasty has ruledChina for over a thousand years. They slowly defeat their neighbors and manage to gain the allegiance of the Mongols who became the base of their armies, and the Japanese who expanded their naval base. This allowed them to sweep threw South and Southeast Asia uncontested. Over time they conquer the pacific islands, though their expansion was halted at Hawaii where the natives managed to defeat two fleets before being conquered. Then they look westward. The rest of it becomes the major war which I’m not going into because of the spoilers. But the important thing was how the world ended up. The Zulu were destroyed by the Longe, but they would be pushed back by the superior armies of the Llewn. The Medved becomes the inbetween empire, gaining the Middle East, and establishing itself as the third major power. After the war, just before the game started, a joint team of scientists from all three nations discover radio.

Hope that answers any questions you have. I kinda covered the basics.

As for making this into a series, I don’t want to, but I might. The first part of the game is based in Amani College, so depending on how large that becomes, I might have to split it up into distinctive parts. However if I do, I’m going to have to do a huge amount of exploration into the choicescript. Like how to import games.

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@Madwolf023 “the 100 year war. Instead of a French victory”

I’m sorry, but I can’t help myself: A French victory? What was it, 126 years of France being torn apart by civil infighting, with the Angevin Empire fighting to restore itself, and England growing rich off the plunder of French luxury, - until the French finally bribed the English into going away?

Sounds like the Black Death was a human victory, too!