@Drazen No it isn’t. There will be many more, I just felt that was enough examples.
As for the difference between Communists and Socialists; that is quite easy. Most people confuse them for the same thing, but Communism is a Political Movement that states the Government shall control all businesses. Socialism is a Social Movement that says the Government should provide equal footing for everyone.
@Madwolf023 I would probably fall in line with “most people”, then, on this matter. Controlling all business, and only semi-controlling them (which is effectively the consequence of trying to provide “equal” footing), has always struck me as a quantitative difference, rather than a qualitative one; Not to mention that political movements typically entail social ones, and vice versa.
Anyhow, I’m just pettifogging.
@Drazen I agree with you on that point. They often blend together. But in terms of actually beliefs, they have two seperate ideologies that just happen to mix together quite well.
@Madwolf023
How much power over greater events will we have as players over the setting as a whole? Will there be a distinct, inevitable flow of history which will will have to adapt to as individuals, or will I be able to drive foreign devils like @Drazen and @Turtler out of my homeland, against the tide of westernisation?
@Madwolf023 I overall agree with both you and Drazen about the similarities between Socialism and Communism. If I had to guess, the latter is more like the former stripped of any moderation. Considering the latter was borne out of Marx, and while the former didn’t *start* with him it has (shamefully) bled over and sort of dominated the others (like the Utopians), it’s definitely not a coincidence.
Likewise, will I be able to obliterate backwards barbarians like @Cataphrak and the grip they have over the people of the Dragon confronting Russia Expy and toppling the Tsar so that wiser, more humane, more enlightened hands can guide them paternally towards civilization in a new golden age of Westernization?
@Cataphrak Somethings are set. For example, one of the most important events in the game will always happen (Not saying what it is, due to spoilers) But if you play as a Politician or General in the Longe Empire (China) you can try to stem the tide of Westernisation. If you succeed or not depends on your choices.
But the Longe Empire is already suspicious of foreign devils. Especially Drazen and Turtler.
And I am already suspicious of the Longe Empire. Especially if it goes to far. Ah well. If you can’t do this diplomatically… *BOOM.*
Also, something else I forgot: how will economics factor in? Historically, Imperialism was a really expensive business, especially in things like The Great Game, and the pressure of keeping the Cost-Benefit analysis palatable was particularly strong in Britain, and caused both sides to focus a lot on the economic side of things.
I’m a bit surprised that we’re seeing so many ideologies in play this “early.” The little pedantic debate we had about Socialism/Communism also reminds me of the “Late Great Game” between the Soviets and British from the Revolution until even after Indian independence. Any ideas what role “early” radical ideologies like Communism, Fascism, etc will play?
@Madwolf023 I don’t blame them.
Here’s an idea: What do you make of players being able to come from one Empire, yet work for another? In a Chinese Gordon sort of way. Not that I wish to, mind. I’d rather be securing civilisation against the Yellow Peril, by looting the Summer Palace.
Economics only become important as Politicians, Generals, or Merchants. Politicians set policies, Generals spend money on armies, and Merchant prices are affected by the economy as a whole. However everyone is effected by economic status overall.
As for Radical ideologies: They appear in different stages. I’m just outlining what will appear in the game. And this barely will scratch the surface.
@Drazen. I’ll look into it. But I don’t want to make things overally complicated.
I do blame them. It shows massive bias and unfair persecution, and gives me another tool to pry concessions from them.
Or alternatively, an arch-traitor. The interesting thing about the example you use was that Chinese Gordon wasn’t actually fighting against his own side, but in a Chinese Civil War (the hellish Taiping Rebellion) on the side of the government the Western powers supported against the rebels, before going back into British service. Which of course raises questions about other crises and conflicts that don’t necessarily break down as “West vs. Central vs. East”.
Still, tsk tsk! The only way to secure civilization is to convince the Longe and “other “Yellow” people” (gak…) about its’ benefits.
@Madwolf023 THanks for the clarification, and I can understand keeping things manageable.
That said, you’ve answered Cataphrak’s question, but what about things from the Western POV, like I asked.
Still, this is shaping up nicely. Looks interesting, so keep it up!
@Madwolf023 …And since one of Dean Inge’s essays is still fresh in my mind, are you going to cover any issues of race, eugenics, and immigration? A somewhat more serious issue, I know, but Physical Anthropology does colour social perspective, somewhat.
Considering how dark things already were in history, and how we have the confirmed presence of lovely totalitarian things like Absolutism, Fascism, and Communism present in the game…
The differences (real, perceived, and imagined) would be dang important in any game or setting like this one, so I know it’ll have to be dealt with in some way. It’s just that I’m not sure about how that would be handled. It could certainly end up a lot darker than just about anybody might want it to be.
Actually Race, yes. The Llewn Empire used to enslave people who was ‘Black’ as I currently have the place holder as. Recently though they abolished slavery. Still Black’s (Africans) are mostly discriminated against in Llewn. In Medved they are tolerated, mostly because of how they escaped there when they were slaves. As for Longe, there Blacks are most accepted because it was a sign of how Llewn was evil. That being said Longe hates all other foreigners.
I don’t touch Eugenics or Immigration. At least not right now.
@Turtler Could do, certainly. Or, it could manifest itself lightheartedly as a thematic curiosity; the sort of attitudes one expects from warring nations. Hell, even today, I know a Chinaman who wont shut up about the Bell-Curve…
@Madwofl023
I’m guessing Llewn = Britain/West, Medved = Russia/East, and Longe = China/“Center”?
“As for Longe, there Blacks are most accepted because it was a sign of how Llewn was evil.”
Sorry for asking, but can you clarify what you mean by that? It seems a bit jumbled.
Also, this brought up something else i’d like to mention: what is the lay of the land/geography like between the three and the other areas?
That said, in this case I’d almost say that “Blacks” would be a very, very small minority when it comes to Racial/Ethnic policies here, because there were so few of them in the territory being contested in this issue and so so so so many others. It strikes me as something relatively unimportant considering the setting.
Especially since each nation we’re deaing with historically had different “pet peeve” racisms and slaveries with only the British really adopting Black slavery overall. The fact that the British engaged in massacres and over the top reprisals at times and the Chinese and Russians had engaged in some of the first genocides in modern history in the region (against the resisting khanates of Central Asia and the Dzunghars and Jinchuan respectively) means I’d say the focus is incredibly odd.
Also, you might want to rethink immigration at the very least, especially if we are dealing with minority characters like “Blacks” as PCs. The first Indian Restaurant in Britain opened in 1815, and all sides tried to assimilate the local elite at least- and even beyond that usually- into their system. So it seems like immigration or assimilation might be important.
@Drazen At best, I’d say that it’s the sort of lighthearted humor that would still be a bit of Black Comedy. And considering the fact that absolutely no faction involved had its’ hands clean, and a few (especially two of the three and several minor powers) actually engaged in outright genocide on the basis of those lighthearted thematic curiosities?
I’m not sure it’s the sort of thing you would handle so lightheartedly. Especially since you could get killed if you were identified at the wrong time (like a few spies in Central Asia found out).
Actually Longe is East, and Russia is Central.
But anyway: Longe does not accept foreigners. They distrust foreigners as trying to destroy their way of life. However the former slave population of Llewn is an exception because it shows the corruptness of the Llewn Empire. How ‘evil’ the Llewn empire is since the Llewn had slaves.
Now that you mentioned it, I will be convering those issues. I just didn’t think about it at the time.
Lastly the names have hidden meanings. Just look at the language of origins.
Thanks for the correction!
Yes, I noticed the names and their meanings. Clever little note.
That said, Longe being so open to Africans is certainly eyebrow raising, even factoring in the Alt Universe thing. That’s what made me ask about what idea you had for the physical and human geography of the place, since it’d be pretty important for how things played out.
To the best of my knowledge, the Chinese actually viewed Blacks as being about as otherworldly as the “Crazy White Devils.” The Chinese had longstanding engagements with the Pacific and the Muslim world, so they at least had contacts with Western Indo-European cultures and people (some of whom actually looked “White”, like Iranians and some Afghans). Blacks weren’t even as “reliably different” as that, and weren’t anywhere near as easy to encounter prior to Western exploration.
If you want a good example of the culture shock, just take a look at the Japanese paintings of the Black sailors and marines Perry brought ashore in Japan. Or for an even less benign example, how North Korea and to a lesser extent China use them in its’ propaganda (which really is eerily similar to things the Nazis and Fascist Italians dropped during the war).
Of course, things can always be different and even given what you’re proposing I doubt it would be a seamless acceptance. But it did catch my eye.
@Turtler Not comedy, no. Simply a curious feature; something indicated as a descriptive feature of the world, but which does not impact, or scarcely impacts, the PC directly in the plot. Given the Victorian bent of a Steampunk world, it is not improbable that sciences such as Phrenology would appear, if only in passing. But, when they do: You’ve got issues of race being addressed, and possibly references to eugenics by extension. That strikes me as more lighthearted than solemn, but I would not treat lighthearted as being synonymous with comedic.
Immigration, I would place in terms of the economy, trade relations, industrialisation, etc., however discussions from immigration always seem to reference discussions of race, and, especially in this period, of racial competition.