ROs Gender and Sexual Orientation

Game Development Writing and Content
41

What AnneWest said is that some people don’t want to date bi/pan people and devs would (and should) cater to that crowd and aim for playersexuality for wider appeal. If that’s not it, they’re welcome to correct me :slight_smile:

Very few authors want to have sexualities in their games. Representation is scarce, so people will claw at what they can get. It can get intense, so I sympathize.
There’s no shortage of bi rep in FH but there were no prominent gay characters. It was more over that.

Wouldn’t mind that, though it could illicit jealousy and pitchforks :rofl: a good way to establish it is through having a chat about their exes. Or as it was already suggested, ambient storytelling: though not everyone would keep merch around the house so it depends if it’s in character for the RO to have pins and flags.

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42

I prefer for then to be at least a few gender selectable characters cause im not attracted to men.

but a large amount of the IF fandom/writers are so it can definitely feel like at times nonbinary ro’s and female ro’s (sometimes even NB!MC or F!MC)

get scraps or looked over in comparison to how male characters are written and handled

Edit: to answer the sexuality part in only annoyed if they only have one lesbian character but then auto lock them to evil

the amount of games I tried in the past that defaulted there F/F ros to being evil annoys the fuck out of me to this day lol

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43

To me playersexual characters feels flat, empty, boring… They are catering to me instead of being their own character which makes them less exciting to me… Unless… I do believe it is possible to make the you-choose-the-gender-you-choose-their-sexuality characters great as seen in Fallen Hero… They’re not just suddenly gay, but it is actually commented on that the opposite gender is usually the target of their love but this time it’s different.

Honestly all the choice stories I’ve read is terrible at this, and only fallen hero is succesful doing this.

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44

It is stupid, but it is how people are/can be. There are still people who don’t accept differences, no matter what it is. If you don’t provide a means for them to learn better, they’ll never take those steps toward acceptance. Hard coding them out of something that may make them curious enough to try a storyline that shows them there’s nothing to be so leery about does not seem like the best way to handle the issue, just as hard coding bi or pan or poly people out (which is not what playersexual coding does) doesn’t/isn’t.

And the people who don’t know that or aren’t yet willing to accept that, don’t realise that. If they never see in any of the media that they consume that what they fear isn’t the case, how do they learn?

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45

No, I’m sorry but this makes no sense. People are -phobic so in order to change their minds we should… just never write any queers characters? Just blank slates people can project sexuality onto? So they’ll become curious and “make it gay themselves”? What will, pray tell, make them curious to play it differently when they are getting the same storyline anyway?
No, that’s never going to work. Positive representation is what changes minds, not convincing people to write queer characters out of stories.
Besides not everyone’s here to do activism and change hearts, queer people sometimes want to play games with queer characters and such games aren’t lacking “wider appeal” as FH proves.

Of course, not every story is a story where these things have to matter - I play Wayhaven, I enjoy Wayhaven - do I want every IF to be like Wayhaven? Hell no.

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46

OK?? I am providing them with an means to learn better - by writing a bi/pan RO that they’ll (hopefully) like? And if the RO just being bi is such a deal breaker (and if the RO was player-sexual everything would be wonderful, actually :upside_down_face:), then I don’t really want to accommodate bigotry/biphobia, thank you very much.
And leary? I’m sorry, but that’s kinda disgusting to talk like this, not even about a specific character (when that character’s established as ‘casanova’ or whatever), but just the idea of a bi character. Het people can be easily if not more leary - unless, of course you mean that a RO should only ever be player-sexual to avoid this, which… Just no, sorry.

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47

I’m torn.

On the one hand, I like player-sexual RO’s that allow me to investigate all of the options and end up with the person that I feel is the best match. Making all of the RO’s player-sexual and allowing me to set their gender gives me the widest field to play without any discomfort, which feels good.

On the other, I don’t believe that a romance is the ultimate ideal to be shooting for in player/npc relationships, it’s wonderful to find one, but what about meeting a really cool platonic best friend? What about helping them find the loving relationship that’s best for them?

That’s before considering the implications as far as gender roles and sexuality and how these things fit into the context of the setting and story.

The real world is pretty unforgiving about these things, and so it’s wonderful to be able to step into an alternate world that thinks not fitting neatly into certain boxes isn’t worth killing you over and stuff. But sometimes the stresses of going against the grain of a societal model are worth exploring and make for a richer and more fulfilling experience too. Sometimes you might want to step into unfamiliar shoes and try an authentic experience from another perspective, and you can’t very well do that if you are simply able to make everyone comfortable with whatever gender expression and orientation you exhibit. What if I want a dangerous love affair that society will frown on, not because they’re a commoner and I’m royalty, but because we are both men or women or whatever?

What about meeting a person and having their gender identity and sexuality be part of the composite that makes up their life experiences and has made them the person they are today, and compromising that so that I can find them more attractive or compatible with my sexuality would dilute the character a great deal. Perhaps a woman is passing as a man in a military setting where that is a gender role exclusive to men in the setting, and the complexities of their personal story would be completely deflated if I made them a man to mold them into my desired RO.

The X of Infinity series is an interesting one where gender roles play a significant part in things, and opt to tell the story of a man in that world, with RO’s with specific genders and orientations that help tell the story of that world. It would be interesting if the player could explore that world from other perspectives, such as that of a trans or female character, with complex RO’s worthy of those paths, but the reality is that an author is only capable of doing so much with a given work. Expanding the scope of a project to authentically represent every possible gender and orientation and pairing with RO’s thereof is a daunting ask on top of all of the other considerations going into such a story, I don’t think it should be a requirement we put on authors by any means. Leave it to the authors who are interested in telling those stories and leaning into those complexities. For the rest, it is incredibly accepting and welcomed to be able to simply say “I want to play a character with x gender and orientation, and to have every possible romance option available to them with the gender and orientation that fits my desires.” It is less work (though not NO work), and quite a reasonable compromise if you ask me.

All in all, I feel like this is a medium that should be welcoming and celebrate people of all genders and orientations and I think that different works can choose to engage with those things differently and that is fine.

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48

I did not say “write them out.” My comments are specific to the ROs. Not a single game here consists only of ROs, even as the only characters you can interact with. Don’t assume and fly off the handle; if you feel I’ve been unclear, ask me what I meant.

If they never play because the idea alone scares them, how will they ever see it modeled positively? Just like anything else, if they never experience it at all, the paranoia will only get worse and more entrenched. I am, as I stated before, only referencing ROs and not other characters in the story. I actually agree with you that there needs to be more bi/pan representation, I’m just saying that the ROs being only bi/pan may not be a better idea than the ROs being playersexual.

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49

My comments are also specific to ROs. This is not some kind of compromise to make side characters queer - in most IFs, the most prominent characters are also ROs.
In fact, there’s no compromise here at all, I thought I was pretty clear I’m not against genderselectable and playersexual ROs - it’s just not something that should be hailed as a standard. All other cited reasons aside, It’s much harder to make than people realize.

This is not a reform school for bigots :rofl: This is not our job.
Bigots rarely read IFs, there’s already too much LGBT content in mainline CoG and the most popular HGs and it’s impossible to avoid it. IFs are by design not for people scared of bisexuals.

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50

My opinion on the bi/pan vs playersexual issue is kinda weird I guess. I don’t automatically assume that a character is bi/pan if they will romance the player regardless of gender, the only thing I assume is that, in the iteration of the story I’m reading, the only thing you know as fact is that they’re attracted to the gender your MC is.

Many people only play a single character who is usually the same gender. Say that gender is male. And reading the story, even through multiple playthroughs, they know X (male) always romancable. From that perspective, if the character doesn’t mention sexuality in game, it could be reasonable for them to assume that X is gay, bi, pan or anything else that is attracted to males even if they would also be attracted to a female MC.

I think of it along the lines of, is every character that can’t be romanced, isn’t in a relationship, and doesn’t display interest toward anyone over the course of the story, by default considered asexual? Their sexuality can be anything, you only know who specifically they are and are not attracted to on a particular playthrough.

I also (again unless explicitly stated by the author) consider character sexuality to be on par with character gender for gender flippable characters. If characters can change gender depending on the playthrough, why not sexuality?

Idk its just my perspective, on one playthrough with certain MC and RO genders I’ve read a RO as gay, while on others I’ve seen the same RO as bi or pan.

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51

Oh, so the sentiment is ‘Uh, okay, guess you can be queer if ya wanna, but don’t affect me with it all. You can be queer in the background somewhere I guess :upside_down_face:’, right? That sounds awful (maybe I’m biased because I know wayy too many people like that lmao) and not much better. It’s not enough of an acceptable, if I’m being honest - it’s just biphobic with a filter of ‘I’m a good person, see? I’m not mad at them for existing, ain’t I a good person? :innocent:’

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52

Tbh, that’s what I would assume as well - that that particular RO is player-sexual, especially if it changes with MC’s gender and is never brought up in text. Then I look into code and see if MC changes anything about the RO, maybe see if the author said anything on the topic at all, in a QnA or anything (although they could pull a JK so idk, I tend to trust explicit text/code more…)

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53

No, what I’m trying to say is more along the lines of “don’t try to hide the vegetables in brownies if the kids won’t eat them and don’t refuse to let them leave until they eat it; let them know the broccoli is always there if they want to try it.” Does that clarify what I’m trying to get across at all? Don’t hide it, but don’t try to force it. Neither of those approaches works.

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54

I feel like I’m probably in the minority on here, but I feel like, for many people, their sexuality and gender are important parts of who they are as a person. So I think it makes sense for a character to have their sexuality and gender be important (fixed) parts of who they are.

One of the problems with just swapping their gender and sexuality, is that these things often change how they interact with others, and how others interact with them. It would be great to have the same plot accomadate what, 4 (or more) versions of the same character, but it’s either a huge amount of work manuvering the plot around the new reality of a changed character, or it’s likely going to come off as being shallow, or worse, out of character.

That being said, I also don’t believe in preventing the character from doing what they want to do, that is, if they want to pursue a relationship that isn’t going to work out, personally, I think that can be interesting too, although it might be a good idea to let them know. Also, I think it would be interesting to explore gender preference through difficulty rather than exclusion (harder thresholds for cumulative success) - if you are up to writing at least two different versions of the interactions in question.

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55

May I recommend this large thread which contains many aspects of the conversation here? It may provide useful context: Sexuality and NPCs
And this: Limited Romance Options in Choice of Games

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56

I prefer characters that are their own person. That generally includes them not gender flippable or all bi, etc., but rather have their own wants and personality on top of being a set gender and sexuality. That’s not to say they should be necessarily binary, but I much prefer characters who can be referred to simply by name and not letter, things like that.

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57

I see some of people suggesting ways to show a RO being bi/pan instead of playersexual.

In practice, it can actually be really hard to do well.

You can have the RO mention it, or there be a discussion about sexualities, but unless the main-plot or romance-plot is actually about it, somehow, it can very easily feel tagged on and weird.

Then, you could have the RO mention an ex, or show attraction to people of multiple genders.
BUT, as has been shown in past discussions on this very forum, a lot of people considers that an absolute dealbreaker. Some almost seem to consider it akin to cheating, or that it somehow means the RO don’t actually care about their MC.
Personally, I am way too polyamorous to understand such thinking, but a lot of people were very passionate about it, so it’s an important consideration to have, if authors care about not alienating potential readers.

Because of these difficulties (as well as just, writing more details takes time and effort), usually, the only textual difference between a RO being bi/pan or playersexual, is whether they have a sexuality stated in their character description.

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58

Think this bit is a misunderstanding. When AnneWest wrote

that doesn’t mean anyone’s leering at anyone, casanova-style. Leery here means wary or suspicious. Both meanings come from leer as sidelong glance, but the meanings have diverged into “wink wink nudge nudge” and “side-eye.”

Given the stereotype of bi people as promiscuous, there’s an understandable sensitivity here. But Anne wasn’t echoing that stereotype, just talking about ways to reduce the wariness of biphobic readers. (I’m dubious on that front, but don’t want to pile on.)

I’ve written a few places about gender-flipping characters (here as well as on the threads Gower linked) and much of what I’d say on orientation-flipping characters is the same. I agree with everyone who’s said that there’s not just one way to do it (as an author writing both playersexual and fixed-orientation ROs in my own game).

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59

Im neutrall. What is important is how good author can execute it. As a transman who’s mostly into men\masc-enbys and very rarely into women - of course it’s a bummer when there is RO who you like and they not into you and you there is no other options for you. So its not like if you suddenly flip gender of other RO’s i automatically like them and if sexuality of RO’s is set and dont match with mine i just accept and respect that, not gonna make main character of other gender just to romace them or cry about it. :person_shrugging:
For me now best example of how good gender-choseble characters supposed to work is Ortega\Mortum from FHR. FHR also good with exploration of RO’s sexuallity and Steel’s restricted preference. So it doesn’t feels like just bland player-sexual experience.

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60

I want to add my two cents as a reader here. Personally, I agree with @cup_half_empty on that there is no one-size-fit-all solution for this in interactive fictions. It doesn’t matter which style an author goes for, as long as it is well-executed and the characters well developed, it is good for me.

Personally, I don’t mind if the ROs are gender-selectable or have fixed gender, or whether or not they are pansexual or player-sexual, or have specific sexual orientations which may limit their availability to players of certain genders. I think this is kinda like real-life: you don’t always get to have your love reciprocated by your crush, just like we don’t always get what we desire in life.

I’m the kind of man who will only think about starting a romance with someone if I’ve developed a very strong connection or close relationship with them, regardless of their gender. This is something that I think has been done well in the Fallen Hero series. (Although to be frank, I still haven’t romanced anyone in that series. :point_right: :point_left: )

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