ROs Gender and Sexual Orientation

[Nemureru_Mori]

A lot of people here seem to like how Fallen Hero handles things the best. I’m not going to agree nor disagree because I haven’t finished reading Retribution yet, but I want to talk about a couple of moments in FH that I didn’t like.

1. The lap-sitting example I mentioned here earlier is actually from FH. In the scene with male Mortum, female puppet sits on his lap, while male puppet pulls Mortum onto his lap instead. Why does the game assume PC’s preferences based on their gender?

2. Ortega (again, male in my playthrough) never dated men before MC (if male). I actually really like this, it makes me proud that my MC was his bi-awakening. Later in the story, when the puppet and Ortega were talking about Ortega only dating women before MC, puppet says the following: “Hope you’re not expecting me to wear a dress for you.” What does that mean? Does the game assume my character doesn’t wear dresses just because he’s a man? Or it’s non-literal: “I won’t act like a woman because I’m a man.” But it’s also questionable, what does “acting like a woman” even mean?

My point is: if you want to make the story more detailed and introduce some variations to the scenes so it would be more interesting for readers to explore, please, don’t do this at the expense of diversity and uniqueness of the MC. If Ortega never dated men before and it’s a new experience for him, it’s fine! But don’t assume that the novelty is only because male MC act in a more “masculine” fashion compared to women. He may as well be “feminine” himself, which doesn’t make him less of a man, therefore Ortega’s new experience is still valid. If Mortum wants to sit on male MC’s lap, but not on woman’s, it’s also fine, it’s his preference! But don’t assume male and female MCs want the same thing: some men want to sit on their lover’s lap, while some women want their lover to sit on their lap (even some straight women, believe it or not).

Don’t automatically assume MC’s preferences because you want RO’s preferences to vary.

By the way, I don’t dislike FH, I enjoyed Rebirth very much, and enjoying Retribution so far. It’s just that the game had a couple of moments that irked me so I decided to talk about it here because other people have already brought up FH in the discussion. I simply used scenes from FH to explain my point, other games also suffer from this problem, for example another fan-favourite TWC does this a lot.

I’ll add that I didn’t talk about nb MCs here, but enbies also suffer from the assumption that they’re some sort of “vague androgynous beings”, rather than a diverse group of people.

[nulCat]

“What are your thoughts on set RO sexuality?”
Speaking personally, I like having ROs with set genders/sexualities mainly because I see so little gay romance It makes me ridiculously happy when I see a dude that is specifically gay.

“Do you dislike it when an RO can only be pursued by a certain gender?”
Yes. Because I’m a hypocrite that wants to hoard all the husbandos for myself
But seriously, I don’t mind, as long as I have other options.

“Do you prefer ROs with an already set gender, or would you rather chose their gender to accommodate your preferences?”
I don’t mind but I’d prefer to choose. If a game has multiple LIs that I wanna pursue I like making the others female while the one i wanna pursue is male. Easier to focus on one then getting distracted by them all lol.

[cup_half_empty]

@Nemureru_Mori

Ortega (again, male in my playthrough) never dated men before MC (if male). I actually really like this, it makes me proud that my MC was his bi-awakening.

Oh I didn’t know FH had that! In my game Ortega was a woman (my MC a man). I’ll play again with male Ortega.

This is exactly what I thought would be an interesting dynamic.

[Hancock]

@Nemureru_Mori

Ortega (again, male in my playthrough) never dated men before MC (if male). I actually really like this, it makes me proud that my MC was his bi-awakening. Later in the story, when the puppet and Ortega were talking about Ortega only dating women before MC, puppet says the following: “Hope you’re not expecting me to wear a dress for you.” What does that mean? Does the game assume my character doesn’t wear dresses just because he’s a man? Or it’s non-literal: “I won’t act like a woman because I’m a man.” But it’s also questionable, what does “acting like a woman” even mean?

Thats means a joke. There is not a single you not acting\looking like ‘your gender’ implications from RO’s. Your MC literaly can chose femenine\masculine\androginus style of clothing you prefer at this moment, and after choosing something that does not fit the norm you might be asked why. But it’s not an assumption it’s qustion to make sure of what you feel.

@Nemureru_Mori

The lap-sitting example I mentioned here earlier is actually from FH. In the scene with male Mortum, female puppet sits on his lap, while male puppet pulls Mortum onto his lap instead. Why does the game assume PC’s preferences based on their gender?

Dont forget that puppet supposed to be a mask\role for MC (and also have their own individuality and visceral reaction to some things) and that MC is an escapee from Farm - where they were trained on how to behave, play roles and gender norms expected from them in society. And society in this universe has the same flaws as ours, there is no magical acceptance of everyone.
FHR have so much gender variations and gender\sexuality questions and what mc feels about all that. Ortega with same gender as Sidestep talking about how and why they struggled with fact that they are not straight and how it chaged for them now. m!Sidestep struggles a bit with f!Ortega pulling him in her lap because it contradicts to what he was taught on the farm(and same in reverse). Transgender expirience of Dr.Mortum and trans\nb -MC is priceless. You’ll not gonna find anything like this in other games, at least for now.
And of course you just cant expect author to fit absolutely all possible variations thats gonna please you, it’s already quite complex game.

[Barroth_the_Mage]

Uhm, guys, I think it might be better to keep further discussion about the Fallen Hero series in it’s own discussion thread.

[Nemureru_Mori]

If there are external factors in the story that could potentially limit the MC in any way (such as gender roles), I want the ability to choose how MC reacts to such restrictions, and possibility to act outside of these norms. In my examples the fact, that my character made a strange comment about dresses and that he automatically took on a specific role during intimate interaction, was immersion breaking for the way I wanted to play him. This is what I dislike: it’s okay to set external factors, but anything internal about MC shouldn’t be assumed without player’s input.

I apologise, I didn’t want to derail the discussion.

[Hancock]

As i said it was supossed to be a joke to ease the tension…You take it very literally.
And you can choose the role you want in this interactions. You can lead or let them lead regardless of gender.
I also apologise.

[feurio]

I generally don’t mind ROs not being player-sexual. But I also don’t mind ROs being player-sexual. It all depends on the implementation.

I hated the fact that Solas could only be pursued by female elves in Dragon Age: Inquisition because the “It’s because he’s straight!11” argument seemed weak af here considering the specific story ~circumstances here. I disliked that my female Inquisitor could flirt with Cassandra only to be shot down because, apparently, it’s considered progressive when butch-looking women aren’t queer. Because, apparently, we’re already drowning in masses of queer butch rep. Who knew?

I also dislike when player-sexual characters’ canon queerness is neutered during a straight playthrough like when you romance Anders with a female Hawke and never get him to tell you about his relationship with Karl. It’s okay, for example, if an IF author establishes a RO’s romantic/sexual backstory depending on the player’s chosen gender for their MC, but don’t censor characters like that in order to keep them more palatable.

What I like about a set sexuality: It gives ROs an identity, particularly the queer ones. I deeply enjoyed Sera and Dorian as gay characters in their own right, for example. And, more recently, Javi as an ace RO in Royal Affairs.

What I dislike about a set sexuality: It can feel rigid and heavily limits the wish fulfillment aspect. Obviously, I don’t need every character to be queer (though it wouldn’t hurt), but it’s still a nice fantasy that your MC could offer an impulse for a previously straight-identified RO to question their sexuality. That said, it’s a very specific fantasy that should be approached with nuance, empathy, and respect for the RO in question. Don’t just make them an easy template for wish fulfillment.

What I like about player-sexuality: It gives me a lot of freedom to headcanon the RO and the nature of their relationship with my MC.

What I dislike about player-sexuality: If everything’s the same for everybody, it can lack uniqueness. It doesn’t always bother me if a game doesn’t directly acknowledge my MC’s or the RO’s gender or their gender dynamic but there are times when I definitely wish distinct stuff like that would matter. For example, when you’re playing a game and you definitely notice how the MC-RO dynamic is heteronormatively coded even though it is not a heterosexual F/M relationship.

[E_RedMark]

@feurio

we’re already drowning in masses of queer butch rep. Who knew?

I know right?

Would you say that DA2 did it right? I mean, it didn’t take away from the characters. Anders was still a whino lol

[Antza]

@feurio

dislike when player-sexual characters’ canon queerness is neutered

Sorry, but unless I’m misunderstanding something, a player-sexual character is, by definition, not queer in any way? They’re not ‘straight’ either. That’s the point, they don’t have preferences and they can’t have any history/identity tied in with it; that would make them Bi/pan/het or anything *not concrete.

@feurio

For example, when you’re playing a game and you definitely notice how the MC-RO dynamic is heteronormatively coded even though it is not a heterosexual F/M relationship.

I mean it could be fixed in coding easy, but a lot of authors don’t care enough, just enough to advertise it as a selling point/change pronouns

[Able_Wolffe]

I personally don’t like when I’m limited, whether it be by RO sexuality or anything else. It’s kind of why I don’t like stat-building games as much as pure narrative ones. ROs being playersexual just makes things simpler, as does being able to choose their gender.

Ultimately though, it’s up to the author to do what they think is best. As is demonstrated by this thread–you can’t please everyone, so write the story you’d like to read and others will read it as well.

[Ananasjuicebrik]

I have a question that I wanted to ask, though I didn’t want to make a separate topic about it. As it’s about the gender of a character, I thought it might be passable as fit for this thread.

Do people have opinions on what gender, if the MC has any, a sibling should have? Do you not care if the MC has a brother or a sister? Or should it be a choice as much as it is a choice with most RO? Or do you just not care enough about the MC having a sibling to be concerned about their gender?

[EvilChani]

@feurio

For example, when you’re playing a game and you definitely notice how the MC-RO dynamic is heteronormatively coded even though it is not a heterosexual F/M relationship.

Can you please explain this to me? This is one reason I hesitate to write non-het anything, because it would probably piss people off because I figure a relationship is a relationship, no matter who is involved. Yes, there are different relationship dynamics depending on the parties involved and the way they relate to each other, but I don’t get how the “heteronormal” thing comes into play. Unless non-het romances are such a different beast and all other human rules don’t apply?

[E_RedMark]

Depend on the sibling. If they are annoying, or butthurt…don’t care.

But giving a choice for their gender is always a +1.

[Antza]

Heteronormativity is basically stereotyping, but it’s expected/conditioned? In a het relationship there’s (traditionally) strict gender roles- men pay for dates, women are all uwu all the time; men take initiative, women are passive.
Kinda related to sexism, but not quite…? Like I’d know which one’s which but I couldn’t describe it, sorry (but for example Wayhaven has a lot of it). I mean I’m shit w definitions, but for example in idk, RomComs, Male and Female shyness is portrayed differently.
Edit. On queer relationships, though, yes it’s still a relationship, with everything a het relationship encompasses. But it has different history, different expectations and idk, it feels weird putting a “=” between them? (Unless you’re writing fantasy, then ig you can null everything and don’t aknowledge it)

[jay-walker]

A good example of heteronormativity is Nemureru’s example with Sidestep sitting on Mortum’s lap.

@Nemureru_Mori

The lap-sitting example I mentioned here earlier is actually from FH. In the scene with male Mortum, female puppet sits on his lap, while male puppet pulls Mortum onto his lap instead.

A man can sit on woman’s lap (not always comfortably), and it’s heterosexual but it’s not heteronormative. A woman proposing to man, a woman taking a dominant role in bed with a man, a woman pursuing a man, a man whose a stay-at-home parent in heterosexual marriage - everything you won’t see represented by Hallmark movies, dating advice columns and by manosphere bloggers/podcasts. It doesn’t have to be “taking the man’s role”, it can be an absence of roles.

In queer relationship you don’t tend to stick to roles and rituals like in heterosexual relationships (though queer people are not immune to “it’s a woman’s job”, “you’re a man in this relationship” etc). Of course, there are positions and preferences in bed, but that’s different and they don’t correspond with more ‘feminine’ or more ‘masculine’ personalities.

The key to writing good queer relationships is understanding the norm first and how it’s enforced and why you as a heterosexual person find certain things attractive and why not, and then what it would be like to be outside of the norm (because in a courtship between two women someone will have to do the pursuing, two men also talk about their feelings and “who we are” etc that doesn’t make one person “the woman” or “the man”).

[Antza]

@jay-walker

because in a courtship between two women someone will have to do the pursuing

I mean, good luck with that, but yeah
(One day I hope to grow up and be eloquent as this, sigh )

[rosies]

for me it’s a pick your poison type of situation, either have gender flippable characters or player sexual ones. pick both and you have a shallow character, in my opinion. I strongly dislike locked romance, so I don’t mind it at all when my MC can date anyone. is it unrealistic? maybe, but so are dragons and superheroes.

[Nemureru_Mori]

@jay-walker

understanding the norm first and how it’s enforced

I want to add, that this is relevant not only for queer relationships, but for heterosexual ones as well.

There are plenty of straight people who like role reversal, yet they are almost never represented because of enforced gender norms. People like this may be in the minority, but it’s not like the core value of COG/HG brand is “cater to the majority”. That’s why I always say that variations of any interactions should be available to all MCs regardless of gender and sexuality.

[Caronte]

As a reader:

@SleepDealer

What are your thoughts on set RO sexuality?

I don’t mind it at all, and as I’ve mentioned somewhere in this thread, I personally prefer “bisexual” to “playersexual.”

@SleepDealer

Do you dislike it when an RO can only be pursued by a certain gender?

I can’t say I do (I can live with the inevitable disappointment that I would feel from time to time,) and I love to see canonically gay and lesbian characters, because I’m always hungry for representation.

That said, even though I don’t mind it in theory, I wouldn’t play a “hetero-locked” game. For me it’s important to be able to play as (canonically) same-sex attracted characters, so while I would respect the author’s decision, it wouldn’t be for me.

@SleepDealer

Do you prefer ROs with an already set gender, or would you rather chose their gender to accommodate your preferences?

I’m perfectly fine with either. I do find it slightly immersion breaking to have to pick a gender for a character, but I can ignore that, it isn’t as if it bothers me per se. There are pros and cons regarding both approaches. I have a slight preference for set genders, but I suspect that it has to do with the way I, myself, work when I come up with characters.

As a writer:

@SleepDealer

What are your thoughts on set RO sexuality?

Do you dislike it when an RO can only be pursued by a certain gender?

The majority of the ROs I write are bisexual, because I want the player to have more freedom. I imagine that some of them could be seen as playersexual from an outside perspective, but the sexuality of several characters come up in the text (for example, one character’s bisexuality is an important part of him for story-reasons, others will come up by mentioning, for example, their romantic history, or just some comment in the passing, and one character’s bisexuality will perhaps only be discussed with genders other than his own if they romance him.)

I have two characters that are gay and lesbian respectively, though. I didn’t mean for them to be ROs at first, but then I decided that I wanted them to be, and changing their sexualities just feels… wrong to me. I simply don’t want to erase it.

@SleepDealer

Do you prefer ROs with an already set gender, or would you rather chose their gender to accommodate your preferences?

As I mentioned, I see pros and cons with both, but I could’t write gender-flippable characters without feeling disingenuous in one way or the other; when I come up with a character, I always see them as a certain gender (or lack thereof,) so making these people flippable would… work, probably, because I’m not one for gender stereotypes, nor do I mind writing or reading about gender-nonconforming characters if it would come to that, but it would feel wrong to me, like I wasn’t exactly honest since there would be a canon “right” and “wrong” in my head.