Lol I love this. I, on the other hand, love putting Winter in their place (but also romancing them), haha!
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Hahaha! Normally I would, I do play sarcastic/blunt types (I don’t know if saying this matters, but I often play villainy bad girls), but yandere is my absolute favorite, generally I’m searching for yandere love interests, and I was serious in what I said, I don’t think I’ve ever played as a yandere, other than gimmick parody-like games (that goes full blown “Yandere Simulator”, with the knife twirling and kidnapping, cliché), so when I saw that I could just confess my love and devote myself to someone I’ve literally known for, like, a day, I knew I was in for a fun ride. Like, I’m asexual, and really be swerving these LIs when they get too bold too fast, yet somehow Winter had me in the storeroom??? 
Yeah, I’m a hopeless romantic (soulmate romances are the best), and I like toxic trainwreck LIs, so being crazy was just calling to me.
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I know that this is the forum for the third book but… It seems that by the start of Sordwin, I always have my amount of gold deducted into 20 ( I’ve got 30 gold in the end of Evertree Inn). Does this always happen? I mean, I feel like losing 10 gold is a huge waste especially when gold becomes more important in this book and the upcoming one. Sorry for this 
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This could be a glitch. If you can give more details in a message, I’ll look into it!
Thanks
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Isn’t this due to rent on the house you’re staying in?
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Rent varies on the house and street. Marble Hill has the most expensive rent while Dockland has the cheapest rent
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I put up a poll because of the update on my theory, I might add more to my theory. You are free to vote on my first poll I made
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@ThomB Yo, I made Valentine cards for my favorite changeling, and - knowing how hopelessly romantic they are - I’ve come up with not one, not two, but three heartfelt ideas to express my all-consuming, unparalleled, eternal love and devotion! 
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All perfect, but I think the tongue rock is the winner 
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That one’s my favorite, too! 
Edit:
Since I can’t and don’t want to look into the code:
Can anyone confirm if choosing the “you’re too much for me” option in the torture chamber not only ends the scene, but the entire relationship with Winter? Like, I don’t know what it’s called in choice script, but are they getting “unflagged” as your RO? Because when I chose it for science and out of curiosity after I had run out of other options, I recall the game mentioning later something along the lines of me not having found love yet or someone special. I don’t know the exact wording anymore, but it heavily implied Winter was off the table for good this time (I don’t remember what the stats said). And the way the game comments on your decision right after making it, gives those vibes off, too.
This would make this encounter even more twisted than it already is (and what happens if you ask them to be gentle is already a 100/10 on the twisted scale… it’s so much more fucked up than anything they’ve done before imo) if your own preferences and boundaries don’t align exactly with theirs (Of course, one should mayyyybe ask themself if Winter’s even the right RO for them, then). It would also mean you can dodge a giant bullet - at least for the moment - in that case by simply deciding not to go check in on Imperion / Lady Anya that day.
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I’ve just had a look at the code, and yes - if you choose that option, it’ll change the ‘lover’ variable from ‘Hayden’ to ‘none’.
Looking at it from a gameplay perspective rather than a characterisation one, though, it does make sense to add an option that breaks things off entirely, at points when a reader might feel like they’re getting out of their comfort zone.
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What happens? 
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Hoooo boy… So it IS a trap you can’t get out of… Holy shit… Okay…
Thank you for looking into it! I absolutely agree with you in general, I just find the wording ambiguous, and the way it’s presented is breaking the so far established Hayden-Rules ™
(Oh btw, I’m replying to you, but feel free to ignore me if this doesn’t interest you , I just have decided to resign to babbling to myself in public at this point, because I can’t keep discussing Winter only with myself in word documents - I’ve been doing this for weeks… and I wish I was kidding - and haters in the “(Almost) everyone hates Winter”-thread. This thread right here is my one true home, and I won’t give up hope it’ll come back to life! 
)
If I’m not mistaken, the possible Winter sex scenes (tavern and ship) in Sordwin basically work like this (I’m not counting the threesome with Dandy here) and I’m just going by their behavior, not whatever the code does in the background, 'cause I don’t know:
- You agree → hanky-panky
- You play along and THEN reject them → mad to REALLY mad Hayden, who will end the conversation with you
- You reject them right away as soon as you can → un-mad Hayden, who will still stop being interested in you, conversation will end here, too
I know it’s possible to set them as your RO in Sordwin while missing ONE of the sex scenes, and it doesn’t matter which one it is. You can even nope out by using the option that pisses them off. So, the conclusion I drew from that was “noping out only makes them lose interest in you for the moment”. When I chose the “too much for me” option in the torture chamber, I expected the same result. Yes, the way it is worded is actually more on the “this is really it” side, but I don’t think it’s perfectly clear / clear enough, because you could just be referring to the manacles and trust that things will work just as they did in Sordwin. And: I really didn’t believe the game had the guts to follow through with this, because honestly? Winter seems tamer and more docile than in Sordwin up until this point.
If making this choice and breaking things up as an accidental result had been part of my usual, canonical first playthrough, I would’ve been pretty irritated, because I would’ve had to start over.
Now…
What I expected even less was the result of the aforementioned “be gentle” option.
And that is a tough one, because it DOES trick players, and that one got me so cold I felt like I had been punched in the guts. The argument of giving readers a chance to protect themselves (paraphrasing deliberately, because that’s what it comes down to) flies out of the window here, because what feels like it would lead to Winter getting mad at you at most (once again going by Sordwin rules where they let you go even if they had you pinned down onto the table already) or laughing at you for even asking, leads to non-con sex, because you explicitly do NOT agree to rough sex, that would’ve been the other option, and that makes the form of sex that does takes place non-con. Not “only” non-con sex, but sex while manacled that leaves you with bite marks and bruises.
It’s not even Hayden who breaks your trust here, because why would anyone still trust them, it’s the game that pulls the rug from under you and mixes things up.
It’s an escalation I can understand in the end, but it still leaves me with very mixed feelings with the way it’s handled. I can respect it, because you have to change the rules to keep Winter unpredictable, and while I love looking for patterns and analyzing the shit out of everything they do and say, I don’t truly want to figure them out. On the other hand, I can sooooo see this being really triggering for some players who thought they were safe as long as they wouldn’t choose “don’t go easy on me”.
I mean, imagine being that poor soul who REALLY just wanted to go check in on Lady Anya… XD
@ThomB It’s possible that this thread will die soon despite my best efforts, so I feel like I have to take what may be my last opportunity to voice a small request. 
Or let’s say, just something I need to get off my chest. The narrator comments what feels like all the time on “my changeling fantasies” and how great it is to be in bed with a shapeshifter. I … am a bit worried there’s a misunderstanding that will only deepen going forward, to the point where I won’t feel “seen” or understood anymore by the game, breaking the immersion. While the sex is all good and well, that’s not the reason I’m romancing Hayden. I’m actually one of those idiots who have fallen in love with them. They can start farting and hanging around on my couch in sweat pants, while in their clay form for all I care. I’m cool with them breaking my heart, I expect no less. I’m just not sure with how things are going, if the game actually understands how I’m feeling and that I’m hoping - no matter how idiotic it is - for more than sex.
@Kirlett Winter lures you into a torture chamber and wants you to get into manacles for them and let them “have their wicked way” with you. At this point what you can do comes down to three options: a) be into it and say “don’t go easy on me”, b) agree to be manacled but explicitly ask them to be gentle and c) break things off entirely and leave. If you choose b), Winter will simply ignore your request and still put you into manacles and have very rough sex with you that results in you getting bitten and bruised.
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Ok, so here’s the thing:
- there’s a shapeshifter on the loose who’s very keen on separating me from my guts; they’ve survived Sordwin, because getting fed to the Lanterns doesn’t kill people, and I’ve fixed what the Lanterns DID do. Hayden even gets namedropped in LuxCoS just to make sure I don’t forget they exist, though not in relation to L’s path.
- L hasn’t been in the city for YEARS, and yet there’s this conveniently placed dude who she doesn’t remember but TOTALLY REMEMBER THEM, YOU GUYS, I SWEAR WE WAS BESTIES! The game even mentions you find this sus as hell. He’s also super accommodating, which, in the context of the Evertree Saga, is ALSO sus as hell, because since the start of Evertree Inn literally everybody’s hiding something.
- He keeps drawing L into… something that we don’t learn about.
- I have a VAGUE recollection that in at least one of the meetings there are details that don’t make sense, though it’s been so long that I’ll be damned if I can remember what.
- We save him from the terrible terrible mob, who, as a message over super-duper debt, only rough him up a bit, making them the nicest mob ever. I mean, if you’re not even going to break one of the bugger’s legs, is it really a message from the mob?
This, shocker of shockers, is, I just know it, going to lead into the MC having to go into an infiltration job into very dangerous territory, where even a small thing going wrong (like, say, and I’m just spitballing here, your fellow infiltrator turning out to be a shapeshifter who actually wants to shank you dead) will result in things going VERY POORLY*.
Or maybe I’m just a REALLY suspicious bastard. 
*“very poorly”, in this context, means “very poorly for everybody else”, because I finish LuxCoS with over 90% magic, which means I can not only level Winter, but also the building and about half the city without putting much effort into it, and I have no qualms about doing so when people come for my stable girl
EDIT:
Aaaaand we’ve crossed the line into rape territory.
EDIT: spoilered, my bad for missing it for the first time.
Yeah, I understood that, it’s just that this “not to the particular nature of the sex” automatically invalidates this: “You do agree to having sex”. Like, you didn’t agree to THAT sex, and therefore it’s rape.
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Would you please put my quote in spoilers, too?
While I’m reading this I notice that I remember even less about the L path in Lux than I thought, but it’s an interesting theory and I know which path I’m gonna replay tonight!
I have one major issue with it though, and that has nothing to do with your theory itself. Okay, let’s address the elephant in the room: I obviously don’t want Winter to die or be able to be killed, that goes without saying. But my opinion on this has nothing to do with that and to give myself some credibility, I’ll now confess something I’m not proud of: During my first playthrough of Sordwin, when I was fully invested in the L romance, I didn’t like Winter.
But not in the same way you don’t like them. I mean, you hate them. To me, they were simply … meh. I remember meeting them in the tavern and I think I even sat next to them for a few seconds, but as soon as the arm came, I was gone and thought “what a sleazy piece of shit”, and that was it. Then, when they showed up during the investigation at the shipping office, I thought “Blegh, it’s them again” and barely talked to them.
I definitely missed the scene on the Mighty.
The next time they showed up, it was the attack in the tailer shop. And… it just didn’t work for me, if I’m being honest. It felt very random, like such a big moment for a character I had barely talked to and already forgotten about again. Of course I was mad at them when they threatend L. But mostly I was just soooo annoyed. The chase scene was very intense, but then they got their face stolen and as soon as that had happened, I had already forgotten about them yet again. Yes, they had held a blade to L’s neck, but that’s what villains do, it comes with the territory, and no lasting harm was done, so whatever.
For me, in that particular route, Winter didn’t work as an impressive antagonist, as much as it pains me to admit this.
Now imagine being a player who never goes into the tavern, the ship, and doesn’t even talk further to Winter during the investigation of the theft (it’s very unlikely but it IS possible). The only time you see them then if I’m not mistaken is when O talks to them for a brief blink-and-you-miss-it moment and introduces them to you.
And the next time, they’re the cutlass swinging mannequin.
A repetition of the mannequin scene, to which a twist like that would come down to, would work exceptionally well for you who is fully invested in hating Winter and seeing them as an ongoing threat.
To the hypothetical player and my past self, it would have felt like:
You do agree to having sex and being in manacles, but not to the particular nature of the sex.
I’m not denying that, I just wanted to make it as clear as possible what actually happens.
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I’m going to have replay the game after reading this. I don’t remember my choice making me feel like I was unwilling with Winter.
If I was willing to get shackled it would seem weird to ask to be gentle because how is being in shackles gentle? if I recall correctly the ship sex was rough. He seems to be into that and your MC likes it.
I don’t think we know enough about Winter to known if he truly cares for you or not. He seems to want the MC as long as he’s challenged. And he likes the rough sex. Could there be more to him? I sure hope so, but what I love about him is how he does whatever he wants in his life. He makes his own rules. There’s a sense of freedom in that.
Sorry the ramble but I just woke up.
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Same, because my canonical, first choice was “don’t go easy on me”. I jumped at it as soon as I could and had a great time. Like I said before, if their kinks and yours align, you don’t even notice anything’s wrong. This isn’t about changing Winter, maybe you got that impression, I’m not criticizing their characterization or their kinks.
Here’s where I disagree with you. Those are all totally different kinks. One does not necessitate the other. They often go hand in hand, but they don’t have to. And it’s possible to play a character who doesn’t like all of it. The ship sex scene is rough, here I agree with you, but what actually happens is mostly left to your imagination. And you can imagine it being just as rough as you prefer. Their bites are descibed as playful, not something that will last for a week, like with the torture chamber scene. The ship scene also has a great amount of foreplay / tension and even some “afterglow” time after the actual act.
The torture chamber scene takes things further, because there is no erotic build up like in the tavern or in the cabin and the aftermath isn’t just you having weak knees this time. It’s Hayden putting a gun to your head, forcing you to have sex with them or else it’s over between the two of you. And when you try to find a compromise (after already trying to worm your way out by saying “maybe another time”) and ask them to be gentle, they ignore it and just take what they want from you. The entire scene is a trap they built for you, one that starts as what seems like an almost cute prank, and as soon as you have taken a step into Imperion’s mansion, you are doomed to be faced with those final three choices.
And you have to keep in mind there are many ways to play out this relationship. You can try to be the “partners in crime”-duo, where one is just as bad as the other, with matching kinks. But you can also play as someone who falls for them, but is not completely comfortable with everything, but goes along with it in order not to lose them, like a classic abusive relationship. Hayden might not be the wisest RO choice in that case, but it ultimately doesn’t matter, because it’s possible to play this way, as an option just as valid as the others. For those players, the possible light that is the “be gentle” option at the end of the tunnel, could turn out to be the incoming train.
Agreed. 
No, keep rambling, please! 
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I must have chosen don’t be gentle because I didn’t get any of that abusive vibe. I would have been I’m out of here. The ship part he throws your clothes at you like he’s done with you but prior there’s challenging flirting. If there’s no challenge as to who’s in control it would be over for me.
I would like to think Winter likes to be challenged to gain his respect (hope that’s possible lol) or to get you just so he can dump you. I never even considered him a true RO because you go in knowing he’s a selfish bastard.
While I don’t believe him being rough is acceptable without explicit permission by the MC I don’t think he cares enough about the MC. He’s not a good guy. He lures you in there under false pretenses.
I won’t say why since I can’t figure out how to put spoilers on here but I trust Winter more than Orion.
Hayden_Winter if you feel free to DM and I would love to have more discussions about this any time. Unless it’s okay to keep talking about this on here. I wonder if Thom is like man they overthink everything or happy we are lol.
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INFORMATION TIME!!! 
To spoiler a text, select that text, then click the little gear on top of the text entry box, and pick “blur spoiler.”
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