LGBTQ and Feminism Issues

[KJM]

Oh my, have things spiralled.

@Laguz

why do you assume that people are not allowed to be open about their sexualities in Pride?

Perhaps I should’ve prefixed my message better, I forgot I’m not that known here. I didn’t assume so. On the contrary, I think they should be free to be open, each to their own level of openness, to be so. If one’s not hurting anybody, their preferences or kinks are theirs to follow. On the same basis I’d defend, if cis people wanted to have a parade. Either we all can celebrate at our leisure, or we keep on playing with priviledges. I’m a fan of the former.
The definition I brought up is how marriage is understood traditionaly, and least in my culture. I was simply answering what might be brought up on straight parades, because many people still believe that definition to be up to date, and those people will not dissapear for anyone’s convenience. Now if anybody wants my take on it, I’ll give it.

@Laguz

There are real neo-nazi marches and demonstrations happening, you know.

I do realize that, but my example wasn’t that. It was a wrongful and hurtful accusations hurled at people who lost their families to the very ideologicaly-motivated people they were compared to… for simply celebrating who they are. For celebrating that they are alive.

@Laguz

Christianity threw us under the bus for generations, and continues to.

I agree, many followers of this religion commited atrocious things in the name of it, as many other for other beliefs. But it doesn’t make it okay - especially for people advocating freedom and equality, for us - to attack feelings of everyone, including regular decent folks who were pained to see their sacred rituals and symbols degraded. It hurts them, and it hurts the pride movement to do such stunts.

@Laguz

Cishets: marriage is between man and woman, and trans and gay people are disgusting, and we will kill you

Perhaps we shouldn’t be painting all cishets (as I understand, “a person who identifies as the gender they were born as and experiences attraction to the opposite sex”?) as murderous radicals.
I always advocate for tolerance - people may find each other disgusting, but that’s it. Keep on living and talking to each other, no matter the differences, because alternative is abysmal.

@poison_mara

Tell me the Feminist quarter in Ferrol has been attacked with painting Nazi symbols and LESBIANS HAS GO TO HELL

Why would I, this is abhorrent and shouldn’t have happened. I have no love for totalitarians, nor assholes.

@Johann

Straight people don’t need to fight for anything

But they do, for example aforementioned “marriage”. I don’t think most of them has truly anything against anyone forming such union. What’s problematic is using this particular word, with all it’s historical meaning and purpose. The same rights marriages have could have - and were for some time now - be given under other term and many conflicts would’ve been avoided. Point being, some people will keep on fighting to preserve what the word means to them.

@Johann

Let’s not pick-and-choose

You’re right, we should all be talking about resolving differences to make our lives easier, not picking things and frowing at each other just in spite.

Also, I’m sorry to see my previous post has been flagged. All I want is to help breach gaps for benefit of us all, no matter gender or sexuality.

[sviyagin]

@KJM

But they do, for example aforementioned “marriage”. I don’t think most of them has truly anything against anyone forming such union. What’s problematic is using this particular word, with all it’s historical meaning and purpose. The same rights marriages have could have - and were for some time now - be given under other term and many conflicts would’ve been avoided. Point being, some people will keep on fighting to preserve what the word means to them.

My family is extremely homophobic, and while they may claim that they believe LGBT+ folks should be able to have “civil unions,” I’ve no doubt that this is just a political message that makes their homophobia more palatable to less extreme folks.

Marriage is a civil right, one denied to most enslaved Africans before the abolition of slavery. To say that it is okay to give LGBT+ folks “civil unions” rather than marriages evokes a past of “separate but equal,” and “separate” can never be “equal.” Even if civil unions guaranteed all the same rights and privileges of marriage, the necessity to call such an arrangement between two LGBT+ folks a civil union rather than a marriage would be a state admission of our homophobia.

Finally, it seems to me that this is all a moot point anyway. There’s no such thing as “traditional marriage.” Jacob took multiple wives, something that Christians today would consider sinful. The church has also come to accept divorce, even if there is still some stigma in some communities, it’s nothing like what the LGBT+ community faces. Our ideas of what traditional marriage is are very new and cultural, and they have very little to do with christianity. And this is the important part: denying LGBT+ folks access to marriage is actively harmful to them; calling the legal relationship between two LGBT+ folks a marriage is not actively harmful to a Christian.

Edit: I see that the post has been flagged but not removed so I’m not sure if I should delete this response or not?

[Laguz]

Just remembered this for all my fellows. Very funny!

[Camille622]

I…I guess we start by identifying our selves. I’m a bisexual, cis-gendered, woman. I have to say I found the first article about the “straight-pride parade,” deeply offensive. Mocking straight people for (false, unfair, and cruel) stereotypes is no less wrong than mocking LGBT people about (false, unfair, cruel) stereotypes about them.

The guy from Boston who filed to have the straight pride parade sounds like a bigoted a***ole, and the parade he seems to want sounds more like it’s anti- LGBT than it is proud of anything. I hope it fails spectacularly.

That article though, was not about condemning hate it was just about hating a different group. I understand that the target of that article is the larger, more powerful group, but that’s a group of people. Straight people are people, and there’s no way a person can read something like that, aimed at them, and not be hurt by it. Hurting people has never been the way to end hate. All it does is reinforce hatred and division.

So the person who wrote that article and the a***ole from Boston who inspired it should get together and have their own parade. Obviously they’re on the same side.

The rest of us, gay, straight, or bi, cis, trans or nb let’s throw one together where we can just stop fighting and accept each other.

[LanaRose]

@KJM

On the same basis I’d defend, if cis people wanted to have a parade. Either we all can celebrate at our leisure, or we keep on playing with priviledges. I’m a fan of the former.

Straight people having a pride parade only serves to put down LGBT+ people, though. There’s nothing to celebrate, they never had to fight for their rights. People don’t come out as straight and risk losing their family and friends. They don’t have to hide who they are against abusive countries, families, and businesses.

The LGBT+ pride parade was originally a riot, and is now in part a celebration of how far we’ve been able to get since then. On the other part, it’s a way of seeing who and what is on our side. Laws still don’t exactly favor LGBT+ people, we’re still so utterly unequal in the eyes of the US (and many state) governments. Unfortunately, the US is also a fairly progressive state compared to all the nations where our rights are even more restricted.

@KJM

But it doesn’t make it okay - especially for people advocating freedom and equality, for us - to attack feelings of everyone , including regular decent folks who were pained to see their sacred rituals and symbols degraded. It hurts them, and it hurts the pride movement to do such stunts.

But who is being attacked? One group, the Christians, have powerful positions in every level of government and have made active attempts to oppress LGBT people. The other group, the LGBT community, can do nothing that compares to the active restriction of our rights. One group gets feelings hurt, the other group gets to suffer from paramedics or doctors legally refusing to treat them.

@KJM

But they do, for example aforementioned “marriage”. I don’t think most of them has truly anything against anyone forming such union. What’s problematic is using this particular word, with all it’s historical meaning and purpose. The same rights marriages have could have - and were for some time now - be given under other term and many conflicts would’ve been avoided. Point being, some people will keep on fighting to preserve what the word means to them.

1
Opposite sex marriage is not something that’s been fought for over the years.
2.
The definition of marriage has tremendously changed over the years. To argue that the definition is sacred is asinine, because the sacred definition of marriage in the Bible involves things like rape victims being required to marry their rapist.
3.
Using a different term for it opens it up to discrimination. Last time we opted for ‘separate but equal’ the ‘separate’ group was given the worst possible treatment.

[poison_mara]

As lawyer the concept of marriage being religious is stupid. Except they are pagan Hellenistic because the concept of legal marriage is Roman. Pagan classic Rome. and was a political concept and economic.
Negate lgtb use of term Marriage is offensive as is put them in place of slaves that can’t marriage and had civil unions put by their owners to breed.
Marriage is a civil concept religions steal from civil government in dark ages .

Now at least in democracy have a civil system and that makes that state should allow ALL citizens from age Marry always there is consent. And don’t enter in the gender or lack off is terribly offensive enter in that is like when in spain during Dictatorship you had to ask Church permission to marry a not Catholic and the not Catholic had to promise maintain Catholic religion in home.

WTF LET PEOPLE IN PEACE AND MARRY

[Gower]

@sviyagin

Edit: I see that the post has been flagged but not removed so I’m not sure if I should delete this response or not?

If a post has been flagged but not removed, it means that one or more users have flagged the post for review, and a moderator has looked at the post and a) decided to either leave it as is, or b) contacted the poster privately and recommended they edit their post, such that the post you see up is the revised version. Nine times out of ten it is choice A. If a post is flagged and I do remove it, it will usually just disappear.

My goal in moderating this thread is to err on the side of letting things stand unless posts address people angrily rather than address ideas. This does mean that some maddening things are not removed, but I’m fine with that as part of a civil exchange of ideas, and anyway, I don’t really want to be the final arbiter of what is too maddening and what isn’t unless I absolutely have to.

In short, no, you don’t have to delete your comment. If anyone ever wants to check on whether you ought to delete something because you aren’t sure if it violates rules or anything, feel free to run it by me.

[TSSL]

First, on the topic of excluding cisgender heterosexual people from pride, I don’t think it’s likely to be productive or helpful. There’s simply no way to tell who’s who. If you try too hard to gatekeep, you’re going to turn away some people who have every reason to be there… bi people in opposite-gender relationships, for example. Also people in the closet, or just questioning, who may be interested in going to the event, but not ready to be out yet. And, well, having supportive people around is nice too.

Also, I am firmly of the opinion that ace people belong among the LGBT community. They’re not heterosexual, and they’re affected by heteronormativity. The discrimination is related to homophobia, albeit distinct in many ways.

Maybe I should start saying ALGBT just to highlight that I’m being ace-inclusive

@KJM

Perhaps we shouldn’t be painting all cishets (as I understand, “a person who identifies as the gender they were born as and experiences attraction to the opposite sex”?) as murderous radicals.

I don’t really understand why posts like that one always seem to be read as if “all” were prefixed before “cishets.” They didn’t say that That example was written as if dialogue, and all it is is plural, showing that multiple cishet people are like that, do and say those sorts of things. Mainly the post was just pointing out a false equivalency.

@KJM

But they do, for example aforementioned “marriage”. I don’t think most of them has truly anything against anyone forming such union. What’s problematic is using this particular word, with all it’s historical meaning and purpose. The same rights marriages have could have - and were for some time now - be given under other term and many conflicts would’ve been avoided. Point being, some people will keep on fighting to preserve what the word means to them.

Civil unions or domestic partnerships or whatever other arrangements, even if supposedly granted the same legal benefits as marriage, never play out as equivalent in practice. They will not be treated as equivalent, and social things that are specified as being for married couples will often end up at individual discretion as to whether they count or not. It also becomes much murkier when crossing borders.

And it creates a second class category. It sends a message to everyone listening that “this is like a marriage, but not quite.” That you don’t get to have marriage. The word for this is discrimination, plain and simple.

With social institutions, like marriage, we as a society, we as people, get to decide what the word means. In making these choices, we should opt for whatever will be the fairest and most beneficial. Language is arbitrary; people are not.

[EditorAvila]

LGBTQ+ pride parade serves it’s purpose by expressing individuals hidden by dogma, dogma may be oppressive in nature against those in the LGBTQ+ community, but those in the community are only truly oppressed if they so choose to be meaning how much are they willing to allow that oppression enter within in them through fear or doubt, when the world bears down upon me, only I can choose to give up or carry on.

[Laguz]

@EditorAvila

are only truly oppressed if they so choose to be meaning how much are they willing to allow that oppression enter within in them through fear or doubt,

Yes, when someone tries to carve out my eyes with a knife for being a “faggot he-she”, I am only allowing that to get to me.

[MockTurtle]

Sorry but that is not true, I don’t want to be mean to you because I think you are coming from a good place… but your comment suggests some damaging implications. It’s a little bit like saying that kids who suffer bullying should just toughen up or that women should protect themselves better against rapists, while ignoring the actual root and culprits of those problems.

A lot of times opression can manifest itself as forms of physical violence, and in those cases you don’t really have much choice. But I would even argue that you don’t have it either in cases in which said oppression is more psychological… the effects that psychological abuse can have on a person are often mistaken as a sign of weakness in the receiving end, when it’s actually a sign of how damaging and horrible that behaviour can be.

Not to mention how often oppression is not an behaviour that manifest in an individual level, but an actual systematic problem that can get institutionalized, and then change the law and society in order to make the lives of those who are oppressed a lot more difficult.

Now, I don’t want to be unfair… because I know that you probably meant to say that internal repression and external oppression are linked… and seeing how one can lead to the other, it’s an actual act of defiance and resistance to don’t let that oppression affect you… but my point remains that a lot of people don’t have the choice to resist oppression, while everybody has the choice to be kind to others, and those who choose to spread hate and damage through their actions are the ones that should be blamed.

[Mutantbeth]

Anyone is allowed in Pride.

[poison_mara]

I understand the feeling as @MockTurtle has said is often used the toughening up with both bullying and rape and xenophobic attacks. When a lgtbq or a woman is raped or attacked violently due whatever reason the assholes miserable said. IT IS NOT VICTIMS FAULT NEVER…

A rape victim no provokes the assholes because the clothing xhe wears A homosexual couple is not provoking shit either or a trans for using the bathrooms of their real gender or a nb for demanding a visibility public.

This irks me because when i was teen in the support group for victims many of us share the same how people tried to justify the unjustifiable. That we were assaulted. It makes you feel denied and hatred for the rest of society and provoke many suicides each day.

Is easy say Toughen up or don’t dress like that … But that doesn’t fix shit. The problem is the bigotry people not the victims. The one that have to change are the perpetrators.

[Laguz]

An article: https://gritpost.com/armed-neo-nazis-crash-detroit-pride-police-escorting/

Cops protecting literal Nazis over us, all while having that gall to wear Pride badges.

@KJM

60 thousand people have been branded as neo-nazis for proudly embracing their own nationality in a form of a march, after entire nation has been put under systematic destruction by totalitarians (nazis and communists) just 80 years ago.

This is the difference between us. This is the reason that we are not the same, that your equivalencies fall flat. If the police would rather defend a demonstration by Nazis over Pride, something is inherently wrong with the system and no amount of “tolerance” will change that.

We can’t afford to be too tolerant.

[KJM]

@Laguz

This is the difference between us.

I think the difference lies in what I’m communicating and what you’re taking from it. I honestly do not understand your approach nor the reason for it. I just replied to you - quoting so it’s not missed - that either by carelessly taking wide swings or out of malice a mass of people have been falsely branded as (neo)nazis, after they celebrated not being erased from the planet by.them.

Why you’re now taking that quote as relevant to actual nazis’ anti-march is beyond me, and implication of it quite frankly offensive. I rejected the slander then, and I reject it now.

Now because it’s LGBTQ and Feminism Issues topic, I only used it as one example to serve the point, that historical struggle is not a qualifier for holding a celebratory march for things people value - so in a perfect world where all sexualities are equal, nobody would need justifications for gay parade, cis parade or tree-huggers parade. - and we can either try to build this, or keep bouncing from one oppression to another for all eternity.

Also I won’t comment on the incident, as to not lead to further derailing the topic. I don’t know what are police procedures for affording police escort in US, nor in Detroit. It does beg the question tho, alas it can be taken rhetorically.:

@Laguz

We can’t afford to be too tolerant.

What are you proposing?

[Laguz]

@KJM

What are you proposing?

[CharaDreemurr]

Yo! Happy pride month everyone, I have just recently came out as enby possibly? This topic seems very interesting!

[Laguz]

I love you, fellow enby. If I can help with anything, or you have any questions, feel free to ask. We enbies… we are so powerful.

[Uniqueth]

Again, no one has any reason to question anyone for being there ON THE GROUNDS OF THEIR QUEER IDENTITY, sounds like he was being transphobic/a dickhead, so on that grounds i’d have told him to shut his face. Queer people can be homophobic, biphobic, transphobic, sexist, racist etc. too

[Laguz]

@Uniqueth

so on that grounds i’d have told him to shut his face.

I don’t think people understand the sheer emotional labour that comes with being LGBT, especially trans. You have to know tons about the human body, genetics and history just to justify your own existence to dumbass people on a daily basis.

Arguing with stupid or ignorant cishet people is one thing, but on top of that, having to argue with other LGBT people is just a total waste of my time and energy.

I came here to have fun, you just aren’t worth it, causing a scene. Besides, in-fighting, for any reason, just makes us look bad in the general public’s eyes. I would have socked him, but someone would have had to pay me.

I can’t stand fucking… trying to be polite and calm and debating reasonably all my life all the time or else being considered immediately “invalid”. Sometimes I just either ignore them, or I get the brick. Sometimes people just aren’t worth the time and effort to re-educate. I’m not a robot. I don’t have unlimited energy. I’m not cis people’s education robot, especially.

He deserved to be there as I did. I’m not going to be the one that exhausts myself trying to bring people around to my side, or gets “cancelled” for lashing out. I’m just so fucking tired of… all of you. Everything. Pay me.