i’m gonna be honest, the relationship progression we have with Asiel is better and more fulfilling emotionally than many actual characters designed specifically for romance in a lot of other WIP’s i’ve read.
i think it’s because Asiel has such a clear, powerful, and respectable motivation, and the story makes it clear that Asiel only starts noticing you/befriending you once they can tell that you are different from all the other minor deities.
just, wow. i can’t stop thinking about this (to be clear yes i know Asiel isn’t anything close to an RO, i’m saying that it’s incredible how the author has made such an impactful character without even having to designate them as an RO. this is honestly much better in my opinion than characters designed to be RO’s but just fall so flat)
Thanks! Honestly I’m very much a “plot first, characters last” type of writer, since I just prefer thinking about abstract concepts and interesting ideas rather than personal emotions. I’d probably be better at short stories instead of long/epic novels, since short stories tend to focus more on ideas and longer stories on characters. Still, it’s not a bad feeling if I managed to (almost accidentally) create a character arc that can make readers emotional. Maybe I will consider a more character-focused approach at some point in the future, even though it’s certainly not my main interest/strength… I’ve especially never written romance!
It’s true about it being debatable but he’s the closest to actual caring about the inhabitants of this people and while the oldest was ready to recycle this world to get stronger. Ultimately it down whether or not it’s worth sacrificing worlds to gain power. I stayed away from that traitor since he was shady most of the game. I wanted to team up with the military god without being a slave but he keeps dying for some reason
Subicim was initially planned to have a bigger role (that’s partially why the highly confident tone in chapter 2), but it would have ultimately been too complicated and overlapped with Quanom’s role (in pursuing forceful domination of the world without caring much about its people). Subicim is slightly better than Quanom in that sense, but would have still clashed against Asiel similarly and sided with the idea of gaining power to crush the Nether more easily. However, unlike Quanom, Subicim would have likely “wasted” divinity on saving some of the souls from the world’s destruction, since Subicim is more about straightforward militarism and loyalty (and not “power at any cost” like Quanom or Memmon).
Since Subicim’s role against Asiel overlapped with Quanom, though, and Subicim was considerably weaker than Quanom, the end result is that Quanom always erases Subicim sooner or later (around the time Memmon is either defeated or launches the Nether Invasion) (unless you defeat Subicim first). This is mainly to simplify the final chapter to a manageable state rather than because Subicim is useless (although Subicim’s Domain’s low faith is actually a major weakness that causes an eventual easy loss against Quanom).
When I picked all the Asiel dialogue options that were opposed to their goals, it was in a run where I started out with a positive attitude towards the Originator. I don’t know how I could have further differed from Asiel’s stance by that point in the game, and yet the dialogue still said that we had a lot of common goals. I was hoping in that case for something like “I’m sorry but I don’t see us being able to work together given the conflict between your goals and mine, but should you re-evaluate your stance, perhaps I would be open to an alliance in the future.” A bit like what Quanom says if we tell them we’re not loyal to the Originator.
In my attempts, I managed to figure out how to have all the minor deities’ relationship levels be at friendly at the same time
Now that I think about it, this feels like it could be an achievement too. Although it didn’t help me get the Savior ending, it was fun working out how to get all the minor deities to like me.
How I did it
>Be me, Geno
>Gladly accept my divine mission from the Originator
>Realise that sucking up to the Originator doesn't give me a divinity bonus
>Silently vow to bring the Originator to its metaphorical knees
>Be nice to my followers
>Give them the tools (Templars) to be ruthless to anyone who isn't nice to them
>Allow the deceased devotees to join the ranks of the living Templars
>Go to the meet at the Divine Mountains
>Greet my fellow minor deities politely and neutrally
>Tell Subicim I will conquer Fiel's domain
>Tell Fiel I will grant their followers free passage through my domain
>Do not demand the same treatment from Fiel
>Give Memmon my followers (Memmon likes those more than divinium)
>Accept Davalon's gift graciously
>Tell Asiel that my followers are valuable helpers, Memmon is a threat to be eliminated, and the Originator is a jerk
>Get ally 1 of 6
>Tell Quanom I love the Originator and all their plans
>Help Fiel with their Shadow problem
>Tell my believers to recognise the other deities as deities
>Craft a divine sword (though I suspect any divine artefact works here)
>Investigate the situation with the other deities' followers closely
>Expel, ignore, or welcome Asiel's followers
>Welcome Quanom, Memmon, and Davalon's followers
>Get allies 2, 3, and 4 of 6
>Ask Fiel to take care of the situation with their own followers (they owe me one for the Shadows' attack)
>Go back to the Divine Mountains
>Take Fiel's side in their argument with Subicim
>Get ally 5 of 6
>Begin fight with Nether Lord
>leeroyjenkins.ogg
>Kick Nether Lord's backside
>Enter 7-way showdown
>Have enough Templars to make Subicim begrudgingly respect me
>Get ally 6 of 6
>Be Geno, the god that everyone loves
@Robjection I have now modified the Asiel dialogue part in chapter 2. It should no longer be possible to go against Asiel’s main goals (opposing the Originator and valuing the believers) and still get a friendly attitude from Asiel in response. If you have a good save slot etc., maybe you can test how well it works now…?
As for the diplomacy “achievement”, great work I didn’t even realize it was possible to get to “Friendly” with all of them at the same time! Actually the diplomacy side of the game was, unfortunately, somewhat downgraded (mainly only meaningful for the initial actions of Fiel/Subicim in the final phase and some flavor etc.) since due to the quickly accelerating conflict (especially after Memmon’s betrayal/defeat) earlier relationships matter less and less compared to the raw power you can offer. For example, even if you disappointed Asiel in chapter 2, Asiel will still accept your help against Quanom in chapter 3 in order to have a chance to save the world, and Quanom will still accept your surrender even if your loyalty to the Originator’s cause is uncertain (mainly due to the fact that it would waste so many resources to defeat you otherwise). Subicim, Fiel and Memmon will also always be defeated, one way or another, whereas Davalon will always maintain a diplomatic/semi-friendly attitude (simply for increased chances of survival), so diplomacy in chapter 2 plays a more limited role than planned, although it’s not completely meaningless especially regarding Fiel/Subicim.
@Christopher_Bull In the common/default/Creator route, at least, you usually have the chance to subjugate Subicim (becoming a Lesser Deity to serve your cause), which is a much better fate than being erased by Quanom, although subjugated deities play no meaningful role in the story. In the Savior route, Subicim will most likely be erased though. I haven’t tested if it’s even possible to defeat all of Subicim + Fiel + Memmon before cycle 15… Probably not!
@Robjection I have now modified the Asiel dialogue part in chapter 2. It should no longer be possible to go against Asiel’s main goals (opposing the Originator and valuing the believers) and still get a friendly attitude from Asiel in response. If you have a good save slot etc., maybe you can test how well it works now…?
I just tested this and, while Asiel’s attitude in the stat screen remains neutral, the dialogue still sounds like they think we have a lot of common goals.
Finally I found the problem. Indeed, it looks like it was impossible to get Asiel’s non-friendly response in chapter 2 due to a simple code/math bug. It should work as intended now!
By the way, looking at the polls, it looks like the portion of players considering the game difficult and/or ending up Erased increased quite a lot after I made Subicim more aggressive (toward a militarily weaker Domain). Is the final phase perhaps a bit too difficult at the moment? Opinions are welcome!
I think you’re right. After the forced cycle of non-aggression at the beginning and 4 cycles of invading and subjugating Fiel, you have just 9 cycles where you can act before Memmon reveals their plan. It’s possible to conquer Memmon’s domain in 4 cycles and it’s possible to subjugate Subicim in 5 cycles, but it looks like it’s not possible to do both in the same run. From what I’ve found, the former requires so many Templars you have to pick the Guardian Spirits afterlife option, while the latter requires a level of Faith that’s impossible to reach unless you pick Reincarnation.
Also I can confirm that Asiel’s dialogue works correctly now.
Thanks for testing! It was actually intended that you can’t defeat both Subicim and Fiel (at least without really optimizing your strategy etc.) when going for the Savior ending, since it would sort of defeat the point of having to choose to “rush to Memmon” if you can just do everything (Fiel + Subicim + Memmon) anyway, especially if it’s easy to do. Some parts of the story also wouldn’t make a lot of sense if Subicim was defeated by you during the Asiel route.
Yeah, I figured you weren’t supposed to be able to beat all three of them in time, but I thought it was worth seeing whether or not there was a way, even if you had to pick the one right option for literally every choice in the game.
Also, while I was testing that, I found out a bit more about how some deities act when they’re hostile towards you. Davalon attacking me while Subicim (whose domain sits between ours) is still actively fighting would be frustrating if Davalon’s attacks weren’t hilariously weak. I don’t know yet if they get stronger after you defeat Subicim or if having a hostile relationship status makes them send more Templars during the Quanom fight. If not, then maybe Davalon is an optimistic diplomat at heart and can’t bring themselves to crush another deity with overwhelming force, or maybe their Templars are just that weak and Davalon was lying about only using a fraction of their power in the Quanom fight.
That’s a great discovery! I had completely forgotten that you can even become Hostile with Davalon before starting the fight against Quanom, so the code for handling Davalon’s attacks didn’t really make any sense in that case. It just basically checked that if you’re Hostile with Davalon, a minor attack (basically a token effort) will hit you every cycle. I thought that would work if you only become Hostile by opposing Quanom. But now that doesn’t make any sense especially if Subicim is still in the way… I’ve changed the logic so that Davalon will send that small attack if you’re currently Hostile and Subicim is defeated. I also added a positive boost to your relationship with Davalon if you accept the suggestion to cooperate against the Nether invasion. This way there will be a (minor) penalty if you’re Hostile with Davalon by receiving a few small attacks after defeating Subicim, but there will be no attacks while fighting on the same side. Davalon is actually one of the weakest Minor Deities (except the ability to block attacks temporarily), but this attack is still only about 30% of the maximum potential, since Davalon prefers not to waste Templars or create heavy grudges through total war…
As a sidenote, neither Fiel (prefers to act in a passively aggressive manner) nor Subicim (distracted by Davalon) will attack you with their full strength either. Memmon will only do that if you refuse to cooperate with Quanom against Memmon. That leaves Quanom as the only “serious” opponent, although by the time you fight Quanom, your Domain will also likely be much stronger already.
Yeah Fiel just attacks your faith is why I put her down even if I accepted her decision. I say she’s second weakest. Maybe I would of spared her if she accepted the decision to send settlers both ways instead of just hers coming over
This is actually easily my longest game so far. An average playthrough should be around 30k words or something like that, whereas my earlier games were around 10-20k words. It also took me almost a year to finish this time… although a big part was simply because of other stuff delaying my writing. I’m also unsure if I’ll even break even financially after the art costs etc. etc. Honestly I think the word count / size expectations have probably been greatly inflated by many authors having huge Patreon followings (or just writing a lot as a long-term passion/hobby project) that allow the creation of really huge stories more or less full-time writing. That’s certainly good for the readers, but perhaps not possible for me, since this project already took all the effort I could afford despite not being all that big (relatively)! I don’t really believe I could get a game much bigger ever finished.
(to be clear yes i know Asiel isn’t anything close to an RO, i’m saying that it’s incredible how the author has made such an impactful character without even having to designate them as an RO. this is honestly much better in my opinion than characters designed to be RO’s but just fall so flat)
I didn’t even realize it was possible to get to “Friendly” with all of them at the same time! Actually the diplomacy side of the game was, unfortunately, somewhat downgraded (mainly only meaningful for the initial actions of Fiel/Subicim in the final phase and some flavor etc.) since due to the quickly accelerating conflict (especially after Memmon’s betrayal/defeat) earlier relationships matter less and less compared to the raw power you can offer. For example, even if you disappointed Asiel in chapter 2, Asiel will still accept your help against Quanom in chapter 3 in order to have a chance to save the world, and Quanom will still accept your surrender even if your loyalty to the Originator’s cause is uncertain (mainly due to the fact that it would waste so many resources to defeat you otherwise). Subicim, Fiel and Memmon will also always be defeated, one way or another, whereas Davalon will always maintain a diplomatic/semi-friendly attitude (simply for increased chances of survival), so diplomacy in chapter 2 plays a more limited role than planned, although it’s not completely meaningless especially regarding Fiel/Subicim.