Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!

In-game, given that Hector is just about the person my mc loathes most It really wouldn’t matter what offers Hector would or would not consider as my mc has a rather personal plan in mind to make Hector suffer should he let himself be captured alive. Hector is not somebody my mc would even allow the dignity of serving as a model example for the new justice system .
If my mc brings some of the Keriatou to formal justice it would be Calea and her father, Hector would simply “disappear”.

My mc would view that as “taking Hector’s bait, going off half-cocked and playing into his hands”. If we let Hector and his merry band of murderers make us lose our cool and provoke us into taking rash actions they win. So my mc takes his revenge on their wealth. I mean do that enough and Hector won’t be able to afford the Veneurs anymore, all without us ever having to face them down in open combat.
That being said if my mc had had a better network of infiltrators and informants then having a series of nasty, painful and humiliating “accidents” and poisonings happen to the Veneurs wouldn’t have been a bad option either. Sadly it is one that isn’t even available to Mara, let alone anybody else.

Actually if that means he could bring them before a tribunal my mc might. If played well those tribunals putting major figures of the old regime to justice could provide a big boost to the legitimacy of the new one.
You’re right that my mc wouldn’t be doing it out of the kindness of his heart though.

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Oh, that’s right. I strongly dislike or may be hate Hector. That’s why I tried to ambush his hunting party.

And my Quote of “Parley thing as a option with Hector” was not meant for me parleying with him. Rather it was meant as a support for my previous post…(Now I have placed the logic in the right post)
That, even @Havenstone had something in his mind, as he gave a option for Parley. That we might try to find/make some ally in between the enemies.
(Whether you try parleying or try killing or try sabotaging his wealth, that’s only a personal choice).

I disagree. We ourselves were preparing for the ambush, with several weeks of practice and planning.
It was our bait to ambush Hector, not his.
He was completely unprepared for any possible ambush. He was so sure that even after you tell him that it was our bait for him, he doesn’t believe our words.

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Linking from the thread of my longtime forum friend Samuel Young, who’s grappling with a wide range of reviews for his recent game The Magician’s Burden: from “best thing ever” to “SJW garbage.” I hoped he might take some encouragement in sharing my experience from XoR, but I didn’t want to talk all about my game on his thread. So here you go, Sam, this one’s for you.

Google Play is a fickle mistress. Choice of Rebels spent most of the year at 4.4 there, close to 4.3 (and my Apple Store ratings were at 4.1 or 4.2 for a good while). Those have ticked up to a good enough for me 4.5 as the “y u not FREE?” reviews have got fewer with time.

But I still get plenty of unimpressed readers, and a slight uptick in those could take me back down any time. For recent examples of 1-3 star reviews:

Summary

“If you take a “wrong turn” it can become a micromanagement game, therefore extremely tedious.” “The different terminology just made following the story very difficult”

and my favorite so far:
“There was just way too much… The character you were playing as knew things that you didn’t, and you had to make decisions about things you knew nothing about, which made it impossible to feel immersed–if all the uncommon and unpronounceable (Xthonos? Seriously?) words and poorly explained concepts didn’t ruin that already. There’s a reason high fantasy stories tend to feature sheltered or amnesiac characters–they’re unfamiliar with the worldbuilding, just like the reader, so the complexity of the world is revealed slowly to them, and the writer doesn’t treat them like they already know everything. Here’s a tip: if you have a glossary of terms you made up, you made a mistake. If that glossary is more than one page, you messed up your story. And if someone needs to look at the glossary at the beginning of the story just to get through the prologue, instead of just being used if you need a refresher after leaving, you made a bad story. I really am interested in this world but I feel like I’d need to take a college course to get all the concepts into my head. There was so little effort put into making a good beginning, this game just doesn’t seem like it’s going to be worth the chore it is to make sense of it.”

Now, everything those reviewers disliked was something I did on purpose. I can’t blame them for disliking it; all I can say is that the game they wanted isn’t the one I wanted to write. I haven’t had the hateful anti-SJW spam reviews you’ve had, Sam, but if I had, I’d say all the more vehemently that the game they wanted wasn’t the one I wanted to write. Those reviews kind of roll off me, because I’m ready to stand by my creative choices.

And that’s why the appstore numbers don’t upset me too much. My Google Play rating inevitably reflects the shape of the market, and the market includes all those people for whom I wasn’t writing. That’s why I don’t expect my numbers to ever get all that close to 5. Quality issues aside, my game is one that makes certain creative choices that are bound to alienate some people…and I’m happy with that, even though it costs me some ranking points and some sales.

Now let’s come to my quality issues. You know what stings? The criticisms from people who love the game, who’ve played it enough to really know its flaws. They’re the ones who I think really see the limits of my writing and worldbuilding skills.

For example, one dear friend (@Laguz) wrote me to point out that my terrifying, arcane Plektoi appear to have been designed by fucking morons:

Overheard: the Plektoi design team

“a lot of money and time goes into the creation of a plektos” (immediately fucks them up so they have useless energy-draining additions and excel at nothing, can’t breed, and require more energy consumption than they’ll spend time exerting on the hunt in order to live)

“yep this is fine lads absolutely look, we’ve created a one-use missile with an obvious weak point, eyes, that any sufficiently trained archer can get, despite the fact that had we known absolutely anything about dogs, we could have made them have no eyes at all and still be just as useful”

“we’re going to make them fast on the ground” “good” “so we’re going to give them a prehensile tail, almost always found in tree-dwelling animals, which it’ll have to constantly and consciously carry out of the way” “what” “what, it sounds perfect”

“we’re going to make them big and tanky” “that’s great” “but despite the massive energy consumption required to keep up that body mass, they won’t eat vegetation” “oh” “also we’re going to make the body shape overgrown and armoured, so that it gets stuck on absolutely everything, can’t lift itself out of pitfalls, can’t use its tail for balance, and falls over easily”

“so what does a plektos do” “it costs us money”

“how about we take a sighthound, a breed of dog whose characteristic speed is only possible through its small size and fragility and make it… big and tanky”

“georgios you goddamn genius. here are my keys. go to my house and fuck my wife.”

Or even worse, pointing out that my characters aren’t nearly as multidimensional as they could and should be:

Why would I want to have sex with any of these people, again?

I just met you like, two weeks ago, and you haven’t told me anything about yourself except your political views, and in Kalt/Kala’s case a backstory. How can anyone smang that. I don’t know you.

On the same level I can’t learn heck all about Suzane on account of every time I so much as breathe in her direction it’s ‘I’M CHASTE’

Me: hey Suzane what u want for lunch? we got grain, shit grain, rabbit, deer foot-
Suzane: GOTTA WAIT TIL MARRIAGE

Breden: rebellion? rebellion? rebellion. poison. helots. helots? helots. no children. i’m charming. please sleep with me.
Kalt: kill? kill? can I? smang? hello? i’m sad. want some smang? we’ll die.
Suzane: i’m being insensitive. helots? i guess? no smang. no smang. sword. i suppose, poachers. chaste. i’m so chaste. please don’t touch me.

Elery: tactics, tactics, tactics. zvad. breden. be nice to breden or no tactics.

Radmar: angery >:( angry. breden bad. angry. poric. poric. mushrooms. dont talk to me i hate everyone

Who are you people? Do you people have opinions on other things? Like is mayonnaise acceptable? Or what art is? Can anyone here sing? Hello, maybe I just want in on those shrooms. If just to deal with you people sometimes.

I literally cry laughing every time I read those. And my ego dies a little, too. :slight_smile: Because my friend has helpfully pointed out areas where my writing or worldbuilding genuinely does need to improve. Those things, I didn’t do on purpose. Those things I’ll try to do differently (or, in the case of the Plektoi, hurriedly retcon or justify) in future games. Fail again, fail better…and enjoy it, because it is good enough.

We’re all on a journey as writers, mon frere. We’re hopefully better than we were yesterday, and we’re probably not as good as we’re going to be tomorrow. I know what a gut punch it can be to get a harsh review, especially when it touches on an area where we (a) are pretty sure we have improved or (b) had the feeling that we still need to improve. Or both at the same time. But hang in there, keep writing, keep growing your skills and your audience. We’re all here with you.

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Your friend has really a great insight about characters… The Suzane Simon I AM CHASTE is nail in the coffin. I will go more for I AM A NUNNNN . But you really accept very well criticism. Like you didn’t kick me in the ass about my really demolishing critics to the first demo. And you listen carefully think most authors don’t do.

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@Havenstone I miss @Laguz’s insights in this game.

Here are my thoughts on the Plektoi.

Plektos%20cover%20picture%2001
I did love the cover art. I am curious as to why the eyes appear to be on fire but I suppose something had to be done to make the creature look different than a normal wolf. I can’t complain though because I know exactly who was the idiot who first suggested putting a Plektos on the cover.

Well, a real-world animal that also appears in this game is bred for its utility despite being unable to reproduce, mules. So it is not implausible.

I always pictured the tail as more scorpion-like.
scorpion%20picture
I’ve never read of primates injuring each other with their tails. A scorpion-like tail on the other hand would be quite dangerous and also explain the need for eyes.

I do admit I was puzzled why the Plektasts would not include a feline ability to survive falls (puzzled but relieved :wink:). Or perhaps the Hegemony tried and cat temperaments just were not suited to the job. :rofl:

It also seems plausible that the Plektoi might just be fed dead humans. There would be no shortage of human corpses after Harrowings and the Hegemony could always seize a few. Plektoi developing a taste for humans would explain part of why Plektoi are so difficult to control near humans.

As far as ROs go, well my MC will have to wait until book 3 to finally romance Yebben so that is plenty of time to get to know him even better. The last thing my noble MC would want anyway is for a former helot RO to feel pressured into a romance so a slow burn is perhaps better if immensely frustrating :zipper_mouth_face:.

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This may be considered retcon by the dear readers who feel the characters are too one dimensional, but I think some consideration has to be made to the fact that the MC is their leader. People are generally very careful in the facade they present to those they consider to be a social superior, and as a result the MC should feel as if their followers are a bit standoffish with them. “It’s lonely at the top” is a common expression for a reason.

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I in fact HATE so much when games lauch like a biblic curse info dump i don’t care about npcs i care less. Like i love ponies and sugar cane, blah blah… blah… :roll_eyes: I ONLY WANT A COFFEE NOT YOUR LIFE STORY … I find perfect how npcs are portrait here, as my character consider far superior the commoners so she will never chat with them about mayonnaise.

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I just assumed that Plektoi design was the Hegemony’s equivalent of this: and started with “so like I think our tracking unit should also be big, scary and able to fight against serious resistance” :rofl:.

I suppose that this is where being a forum regular spoils for many games as I know both the author and often the characters far better than someone who simply plays through the game once or maybe twice.

It’s going to take some doing for my poor helot mc to actually realize that, not to mention fully comprehend the implications, as he wasn’t exactly raised an aristo. :worried:

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@Havenstone You are a wonderful author. I also love the way you poytrayed your characters. I think it suits the narrative story-wise, like… the game is mostly narrated from the mc’s point of view ( I get the impression that the story we read is his/her autobiography, or dictated autobiography in case she’s still illiterate, written after the rebellion is over), and she, like any good writer, chooses to write only what’s important. A good rebel leader may knows who in the band likes mayonnaise and who doesn’t, but she doesn’t need to narrate that, in the same way that she doesn’t need to narrate what she eats for a breakfast each day.

About Plektoi, I think the ability to create a dreadful beast like that could be seen as a “show-off” to other empires, showing them the Hegemony is affuent (in blood) and theurgically advanced enough for this, similar to how they make their palace float though there is no practical need for it (or there is… but it’s not yet revealed?)

I also like how you create the world that’s really complex. Extensive etymology helps make that world seems real. Someone said she need to take a university course to understand your world. Of course I disagree, but if my university has a course (or better, courses) about Hegemony and Xthonos, I would enroll.

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I honestly don’t think there is anything wrong with a chaste RO in Suzanne/Simon… this just display a diversity of potential RO that a game can create, for all i know many people also like a potential villain as RO ingame ( me for one ) , what’s wrong to include an ultimate good chaste RO ingame?

Personally i love Suzanne here because she capture the imagination of a text book Arthurian character who is a potential RO, and there aren’t many of those in CoG/HG sadly… so Suzanne or Simon was a breath of fresh air here, some may not like them…that doesn’t mean they don’t have their fans…

For me, that scene where MC attempting to court Suzzane nail it for me , smart ploy on romance attempt not based on kiss alone and her reasoning was gorgeous…

Suzanne wanted a propper courting proposal , where she hinted she will accept… that is the standard she set and i admire that, i seriously think that was an innovative romance scene where most stories are lacking… the only similar romance scene i can think of was Romancing Maria in Tin Star, where she won’t openly any romance attempt easily…

I was patiently waiting for that proper engagement proposal to Suzanne in future book, assuming that was your plan all along… please don’t abandon the idea of a chaste Suzanne or Simon, they are certainly not nun if reader actually read the scene carefully … while some may not like them, but suzanne and simon should remain an authentic choice of romance not purposely created based on popular appeal :slight_smile:

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@Havenstone and @Samuel_H_Young -

As a dedicated game tester for more than a decade I can authoritatively state that you are not alone in experiencing feedback of all natures and qualities. Even the best, most well thought out and comprehensive world-building and immersive storytelling will have something less than perfect to it. I believe this is part of our shared humanity, to be unable to build anything perfect.

I can also tell you both that it is a very special person that can take feedback, no matter its acerbic nature or its seemingly irrelevance, and break it down into something actionable and usable.

Both of you have done something here that many of us, myself included has not (yet) and that is put forth a published creation of art - something that no two people reading will get the exact same thing out of. Because a work of art is subjective to one degree or another, people’s reactions are going to be diverse and often conflicting.

Also, as an artist, you will make decisions with regard to your design execution and production of your game. If you truly believe in your decisions, it is ok to stand by them later after receiving criticism. Sometimes, even valid criticism is something that you can put aside due to creative prerogatives taken during writing and development.

Sam - I know you just went through a vulnerable time shortly after your latest work went live and while that should not be used as an excuse, any sort of criticism during such a vulnerable time will hit harder than it should.

I do urge you to go back, once you have healed and grown stronger, to some of those reviews and take a second or third look to see if there is anything actionable you can glean from them. Sometimes a specific turned phrase or slightly different perspective can give you an insight to use for the future.

Havie - You alluded to the market-place not being a particularly fine tuned sounding board for your product. I concur, however I do urge you to look for meta data that can help you gain a grasp on general trends. Especially for releases that are 4+ years in the making.

An example from my testing career: MMO’s have had open-world online sandbox type of environments for decades. Over the years, the various game designers and developers have been looking for ways to incorporate these elements into every other game genre and as they become successful they are hailed to be visionaries and ground breaking and all that crap.

The fact is, they just steal elements from each other and package them into their niche-market.

Writing seems no different. In my short time of trying to become a true writer of fiction, Ive noticed that this same phenomenon is happening in modern fiction - since IF is a fringe niche, we are often the last place to have these transfers happen.

Nevertheless, I truly believe you should be looking for these desires and opportunities now, as you develop the second game and try to get ahead of the curve, so to speak. I believe this is your greatest potential for growth.

All the other elements you point out as needing further improvement are valid but to ensure market success in your niche, 5 years from now, you need to be able to see where the innovators are trying to take things now.

Right now, I am exhausting myself, trying to educate and learn things I should have years ago in order to catch myself up to both of your levels of writing - so looking back at older guides and learning tools, I see these same needs, just presented in a different way.

You both know how to reach me if you guys need me.

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@Havenstone …hey i would like to dedicate this music to your Choice of Rebels if you don’t mind, the title is " Building Courage " by Neilcross

the theme is not badass , but as the title suggest Building Courage … , since the build up of my MC is CHA2 INT1 , most of the time i am running and avoiding direct confrontation until the end battle, where i lead the hunters/archers in a guerrilla warfare … hence it was a slow burn about building up my own courage for such massive confrontation in the end , Well i can imagine my MC is a cultivated and bookish rebel leader who rely heavily on charisma and calculated strategy … to lead a battle where human lives are burden on me need some building up of courage :wink:

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Keen insights as always from our friend @Laguz

I think it’s also fair to point out the Plektoi need a less-than-perfect design or else they’d kill all of us instead of just most of us.

I dislike how Radmar’s dial appears to be stuck on “asshole”. I also dislike how Poric has no identity except that he’s Radmar’s boyfriend. It would’ve been interesting to talk to him, or pantomime with him or something (maybe he learns to write) and we can ask him “what exactly do you see in this fucking meathead?”

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Maybe Poric saw through Radmar’s hotheaded nature and recognized his softer side.
There’s not much characterization on Poric which is why I like the suggestion to getting to know him maybe bit better in future books?

On the other note Breden character gets more interesting every time I try new playthrough to find more clues on the traitor…

Like I noticed if you meet Horion and Linos in the passage and in the end let them go, Breden has possibility to mention it would be better to kill them since she doesn’t trust their story, they have no complete idea who they are (I didn’t have Kalt or Simon telling me the truth cause I took Simon hostage), and asking ransom for them would only send more men after them.
And instead if you decide to go to new camp and let Breden go and meet them, she returns tears in her eyes and says she killed them in momentary panic, thinking they were Theurge…and the way she acts and repeats it as “accident” after my mc comforts her makes me feel like she’s trying to convince herself.
Wonder if Breden actually did kill them on the second option because they might be someone untrustworthy and not by accident…
Point for Breden.

Also if you have Simon, Horion, and Linos as hostages and decide to kill Simon after Hector’s attack, Breden rushes up to you and tells killing Horion and Linos would be much stronger message as Simon more or less is thought to be traitor. And it’'s mentioned there is unusually cold look in her eyes.
Whatever happened to your “we can’t kill them Archon will send more men after us, Breden dear?”

Also…
If Breden tells you the Kryptast code and mc accuses her of being Kryptast, the mc demands to know what happened to her masters, and Breden’s face is filled with such loss that mc just shuts up as she says they were killed, butbut Breden thought it would be best to keep their dreams alive.
It could be she was chosen to be spy or start uprisings cause her extraordinary charisma and she did for survival, but then her old masters died after she denounced (am I using that word correctly?) them cause that was her job and she didn’t want to die which could have been catalyst for her to start dreaming of real rebellion.
Honestly I don’t think she ever meant to become leader in rebellion because her possible former connections to Hegemony?
So she starts coaxing mc become more outspoken because she recognizes the qualities in them to become leader, which is also why she endures haughty aristo’s constant assertions of superiority.
Which leads to the point she starts meeting in the same place with mc and her small group so they end up meeting at some point and both have no option expect to join the discussions. And even if, especially haughty aristo mc, refuses they can’t tell anyone for the fear of being accused being traitor.

And finally if Breden is the one who revealed their seditious talks location it could be so that mc would be forced to take action. her words later if you allow her to be killed and she pleads for help from you, thinking you could save her, could be very well be true. Of course in the case of haughty aristo who refused to join her discussions and disrespects her in every word, Breden most likely asked their help just to denounce them out of spite.

Hm I also noticed on other playthrough where I exiled Breden and allowed Radmar to join our delightful “who is the traitor” discussions he’s really adamant that Breden was the only traitor and his mood gets pretty bleak when you tell him you guys gotta make sure.
Even more suspicious after testing it again by letting Elery join the discussions and she just focuses on telling Zvad the details and trying to keep her terror from that day at bay…
…point for Radmar…

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Perfect immobility, how perfectly boring…

I’m so not a fan of leaning on the same sort of doctrine the Thaumaturgy has leaned on. Then again this would make it relatively easy for believers to accept the changes I want to bring about as its inline with currently accepted belief.

So as a “flawed” emanation Xaos is basically a fallen angel then. Are there other fallen angels? Or is Xaos all alone in his blasphemy?

Pity.

Do animals have souls? If so, are they made of Aether too? And how exactly is aether defined? What is its source?

Elysia sounds a little dull…

I say they’re all dreamers… :wink:

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Hmm…given the snippets of Xthonic doctrine @Havenstone gave us, I wonder if it would be possible to create a less Manicheaen version of the religion by exalting Xthonos and Xaos as deities that embody the dual components of a balanced world: Order and Change. Too much of one and you either end up with a tyrannical, corrupt regime (Xthonos) or a lawless wasteland (Xaos). Both forces need to be kept in balance. This dualistic system could serve as a justification for the rebellion: we are the change needed for the lands of the Hegemony. Of course this is all terribly blasphemous, but who says you can’t try to introduce radical elements to the Xthonic religion.:wink:

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Radmar might be a bit of a dick, but he’s fairly effective. He takes your rebellion seriously as an actual rebellion, rather than a bunch of starving Helots trying to survive the winter. He also doesn’t trust Breden, which is potentially a massively useful quality to have. :stuck_out_tongue:

If you are a Helot trying to overthrow the Hegemony and get rid of Aristo dominance over the lower castes, he’s the guy I would trust the most to stick to the ideals of the rebellion (maybe with a bit of a Robespierre twist). Breden is too fishy, Zvad is too… pragmatic.

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Radmar is the most annoying rodent i have to endure. Due it has no damn sense In Mara play through. Havie seriously, He started to eat poison drugs mushrooms and go high around puking over me. And something about his guy I don’t know he was and how i am x or Y and how he much hate me…

I HAVEN’T TALK TO YOU FIVE LINES AT ALL. I DON’T KNOW WHO YOUR BOYFRIEND IS. I DIDN’T CONSPIRE WITH YOU AT ALL LAST YEAR…
Mara in character assume that is the drug… lol. She is like Wtf you hate me? I don’t fight , you are fat lazy in your tend as you never have work as I do all the charisma and charisma is all we do… I just wanted to kill him … But Mara gives a shit as she is all in band maybe I could put him another Bf? Maybe he wants bang Hector?

One of the few things I’d planned for Ch 4 (with a ‘to write’ placeholder for ages) that I dropped in the end because I’d run out of time was a pre-battle scene with Poric (if poric > 0) where you talked with him about stuff and got to know him a little better. A moment of connection where he to some extent stands in for all the voiceless followers the game gives you (on-the-nose, I know). I do wish I’d made time to write that.

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Poric is dead in all my new plays and Radmar say is my fault? WHY I DON’T LOST anyone where poric died? I prefer the old wedding scene to the puke drugs over poor Mara :sob: