You can’t apply in our world scientific method to something doesn’t exist here. You could grab aerhwr blood and measure it in your home? Not… You can’t So you can’t use ACTUAL Science in a FANTASY world . It is kinda insult scientific method that was created to NOT use fantastic non sense in real work.
IN fantasy character you could try to use in lore science… But that’s never REAL science and will never working like that. Trying to use our scientific method in a world with mutants flying people and blood that works like a energy… Is kinda no point. As we can’t measure that
The scientific method is roughly: you make a hypothesis, you test it, you observe the results, and you amend your hypothesis based on the results. That is exactly what MCs that choose to experiment with blood magic will be doing. Such experimenting is also presumably what the first Thaumatarch did. If some MCs have no desire to actually understand something and are willing to settle for ignorance, well that is their choice.
That’s logical consistency not science. You can’t measure or proof any hypothetical fantasy stuff. So by not means is not science. It could be scientific IN LORE but it will be based of in lore science that is NOT our science at all. Different maths different in light different in physics chemistry etc… So assume light will be EXACTLY as ours same planets or speed of light is well fantasy as YOU can’t proof it .
As I said real world One science. Fantasy world other total different fuel by imagination
Well… I can test ideas actually. It just requires asking poor @Havenstone what will happen if I do such and such. Then he gets to apply logical consistency to answer.
You aren’t testing lol. You are PRAYING to the good or Oracle old Havie to have a divine response… That’s by all means all contrary to scientific method.
I am just tired of people using Science to explain Jedi powers and Harry potter powers… It is just tiresome…
Interesting. I get tired of people assuming that if magic exists in a story, then that must mean science has completely stopped working or stopped being useful. I have never seen what I would consider to be a reason why magic could not be studied as rigorously as a non-magic world would be.
I get the impression from the XOR lore I have read that Theurges know from experience (trial and error) that some things will work and certain other things will not work. But I do not get the impression that they actually understand WHY some things work while other things do not. My MC and I just want to UNDERSTAND! (This may explain why so few people ask my MC to dance… that and my MC FINALLY yelling at Breden.)
I don’t consider science should stop working. Harry potter universe has a very great mathematics of magic and great scientific IN LORE rules. Same for Star wars or Elder Scrolls.
Logical consistence with that On lore rules is key to any world building.
However what many people does is trying hard to use our real scientific theories in high fantasy and that’s in many cases ridiculous. And miss the point of real lore.
I like the theories than use magical maths in harry potter and the in lore science. I want to understand that too.
However using String theories to explain why alohomora opens doors… is well Boring and without sense… for me.
Magic worlds exist to use magic science rules not to use our boring science. lol
Scientific curiosity and the scientific method of experimentation still works and I believe Havenstone already said the top minds in the Hegemony at least know and actively use the scientific method. It’s just that in this world it seems to result in a high degree of divergent tech with steampunk and magitech flavours. “Real” technology as we know it is likely possible too, the fundamental physics do not seem to diverge to the degree they do in the Elder Scrolls universe, for example. It has merely been established that the aether stuff that really fuels magic let’s people break the ordinary laws of physics and probability. Which is why I said by the time we can, hypothetically, advance tech far enough to easily establish a space program that makes harvesting of pure aether possible one of its most intriguing uses would be as FTL fuel.
On the other hand “steampunk” and “magi-tech” are real in universe and criminally underused in the provinces, particularly when it comes to actually improving quality of life for ordinary people. And steam and water seem, at least to some extent viable, if less efficient replacement power sources for some things currently running on “magic” power.
That depends on if the setting’s rules of magic are internally consistent, even if the mages practicing it, much like our scientists today, still have an incomplete and imperfect understanding of its underlying fundamentals and rules. If that is true then the scientific method and experimentation and documentation of said experiments (this is likely where the Hegemony’s blood mages are weak even compared to early modern scientists, which might stifle and frustrate development and adoption of breakthroughs to some extent) are still useful for advancing the understanding of even, divergent, fictional universes.
But we’re going in circles here. Wish we’d get some new material for our baseless speculation thoughtful well-considered and intelligent debates. This text will be blurred
Well, the light-emitting eyes is something that the MC sees in Telos-vision. So either it’s a fact of the gameworld or Telos-vision is fallible. Take your pick.
If I recall correctly, to be precise, the MC also says that the MC does not understand most of the things the MC “sees” with Telos-vision. So perhaps Telos-vision is filtered through the MC’s understanding of things which might partially explain the need for education to be able to use Telos-vision properly.
Hmmm. Really either option has interesting implications.
@Havenstone I guess technically, there really would be light coming out of the eyes even in the real world. Of course, in the real world that light is reflected. If a MC tries to redirect the outgoing light and just happens to redirect the incoming light as well, that could easily blind someone which would be a third possibility. Maybe the MC never thought to check if there was more incoming light than outgoing light. A case of not searching for more once the MC found what the MC expected to find.
One way to test this would be to look at someone’s eyes using Telos-vision in a completely dark room (have to make sure there is only one possible source of light) and check if there is any outgoing light. That is a falsifiable hypothesis.
I think it was @cascat07 who pointed out long ago that Theurgy seemed in tension with the scientific method – not because it was anti-intellectual or anti-technological (it’s been the basis for a rich intellectual and practical tradition), but because it seems to rely much more on direct intuition of the Truth rather than the steady accretion of knowledge through falsification of hypotheses.
Flawed interpretations of observational data can happen in real world science. It is harder to isolate variables and only test one thing at a time when Telos-vision gives a huge amount of information of which Theurges only understand a small fraction. When a Theurge might be changing multiple variables at once without even realizing some of those variables exist, that could certainly complicate things.
Or telos vision itself is an illusory interpretation of what is happening generated by your monkey brain when it’s aether is being consumed. I doubt we would attribute much empirical strength to the insights gleaned while under the influence of LSD. We know for certain that Yebbin’s telos vison is significantly different than the MC’s for example.
We know that Yebben’s Telos-vision starts significantly different. Whether the MC and Yebben will end up with the same Telos-vision when they are both more experienced will be interesting to learn. After all, we know from lore that more experienced Theurges that are not blind could detect the potential in aetherial blood just like Yebben. We’ll also have to find out how Abhumans and the Unquiet Dead view things.
They aren’t “mindless zombies” and personally I’m pleased that Havenstone has made his undead more intelligent and unique than “mindless zombies”.
@Havenstone In G4 when we start gaining control over major areas, could the MC’s frontline troops or at the very least, their Theurges and cavalry not be former helots (For MCs who are planning to force them back into servitude, a trained army made up of them might not be a good idea) and instead have the urban and rural poor as the rank and file(This is what I assume the Hegemony does right now) and nobles as officers? Or will we not have the resources to field any army that is not primarily made up of helots? Also, are there many nobles in the merchant class?
My character concern about theurges is more How kill them all in a way that looks like Mara is choosen one and destroy absolutely all the knowledge of blood magic.
@Havenstone Could be destroying all knowledge of theurges a valid goal? Because is not only kill Mages Mara objective is destroying that knowledge that created Wards and all the killing loop in the Empire too starting after the Big famine a social system more fair and more manageable with no need to sacrifice half of population
I’ve been reading accidental superpower, and it has got me thinking about the importance of geography and technology on the destiny of a nation state. I just can’t see a way out of the Therugy trap unless the MC’s post-hegemony empire can grow so powerful as to technologically dominate all its competitors. Therugy is just too accessible. It’s like if you could make nukes in your basement.
I wouldn’t say that, given how rare 2 INT is, let alone anything above that. If you’re a helot, it’s implied you are the first ever helot Theurge. My MC’s solution to Theurgy is to create an all-noble Theurge’s Guild, which any noble who has the skill to be a Theurge can become one(currently only nobles who’s families are fanatically loyal to the Hegemony can become Theurges, which severely limits the Hegemony’s recruitment pool). The army will follow Hegemonic doctrines with regards to tactics.
@Havenstone If we are not a particularly skilled combatant, will we have the option to commission a Theurge-forged sword (and armour if it exists) for ourselves to “even the odds”?
If you kill absolutely all people that can make theurge the society is done. Only very few can do theurge and the knowledge is hidden and protected in few places. This reminds me The Asimov foundation saga. How an empire of thousands of years and stars that contains all knowledgeable universe could collapse and degrade in so few years. But that happened in real history.
A social group could pretend be stronger but smallest issues and economic problems neglected by The hegemony makes it a giant with muddy legs. Based in a economic system unsustainable. MORE AND MORE AND MORE blood is needed just to maintaining the current population and for that you need more and more and more slaves to fuel the same farms to feed them. And growth is needed for Hegemonic system maintaining the problems and political turmoil out of capital. Leaders need more and more conquest to control more big army to control the more big population. All growth in arhyming no system can’t cover in a long run.
They are in a total collapse situation even without player revolution. The corruption the silent turmoil and all that is in the society and in the Helot caste that have to bleeding and maintaining and structure that has been giving a size far beyond any sense of stability.
It all smells that Babylon is about falling. Now It woul see if Pc could direct the pieces of it one way or another.
