Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!

[cascat07]

@KuriosIasoun

I wouldn’t say that, given how rare 2 INT is, let alone anything above that. If you’re a helot, it’s implied you are the first ever helot Theurge.

Quite the opposite and @Havenstone has indicated that other emergent theurges from the lower classes have been either killed or brought into the fold in the past.

Think about our merry little band. Nearly all escaped slaves, in the wilderness, starving, and some MCs have managed to self-train at least two on the way to more. No matter how hard the Taliban or ISIS want a nuke they will never be able to get one much less build two themselves based on what is essentially reading a paragraph and thinking about it weally hard.

As if that weren’t enough the only resources you need to build said nuke are in your own veins!

[poison_mara]

That’s reason Hegemony hidden so much knowledge. If people really know how easy is their control would be broken. They liveinto a illusory control. If people just notice that their magic could be replicated they will lost control. However if everyone knows that well society is done forever all will broken in small war lords situation where blood wars will be incessant to fuel the ambitious leaders theurges

[X09fg4]

@cascat07

unless the MC’s post-hegemony empire can grow so powerful as to technologically dominate

And that still wouldn’t work in the long run because that advantage levels off fast. Japan went from medieval levels of technology to modern nation super power in less than 20 years. Now that’s a limit case but you see my point.

@cascat07

Therugy is just too accessible.

I think the accessibility of theurgy is more a factor in the maintenance of internal order then in the balance of power between nations. In the second case the blood economy is a much bigger determinant.

But yes, opting out of theurgy completely is a decision that will come with a suicidally high price tag. Quite the cruel little world @Havenstone has created.

[poison_mara]

I called the price the big famine. And my guess Is About 60% percent of total Hegemony empire population will die for it. And absolutely all the capital province. Evil Gandhi’s goal is save shayard and most possible of the others provinces culture and population The empire centre however will be looted and left to rotten. Loot will be sent to buy supplies Food will be distributed fairly to maintain all possible famine away during the transition to a sustainable economy with a sane population growth and a land capable of sustain it. But yeah… This will be similar to the black death plague that killed half European population in few decades

[KuriosIasoun]

@poison_mara

Loot will be sent to buy supplies

But will the drachem hold it’s value in the chaos wide-spread famine would bring? And for that matter, where will the supplies be coming from? All the money in the world cannot buy food when there is no food to buy.

@poison_mara

Food will be distributed fairly to maintain all possible famine away

And how will you maintain order in all of Shayard(which is as big as Greenland) without Theurgy?

@poison_mara

And absolutely all the capital province.

Don’t forget that even if you brutally sack Aekos and all the other cities, there will still be rogue Theurges about, and without Theurgy of your own, you cannot hope to best them. And when they make an offer to your new subjects, telling them that they can end the famine if they accept them as overlords, how do you think your people will reply?

[idonotlikeusernames]

@KuriosIasoun

My MC’s solution to Theurgy is to create an all-noble Theurge’s Guild, which any noble who has the skill to be a Theurge can become one(currently only nobles who’s families are fanatically loyal to the Hegemony can become Theurges

Limiting it to “nobles” still means you won’t tap your full potential. I mean Yebben and the helot theurge mc are both non-nobles, to put it mildly, from the same backwards, backwoods podunk village. So how many more potentials like that are they missing because of the moronic caste system?

@poison_mara

MORE AND MORE AND MORE blood is needed just to maintaining the current population and for that you need more and more and more slaves to fuel the same farms to feed them. And growth is needed for Hegemonic system maintaining the problems and political turmoil out of capital.

Only in the current system, if there is no other way out of the “theurgy trap”…well our big bad neighbours do offer an alternative model that works well enough for them. Of course it means tapping the more potent stuff from babies, but at least they won’t have a moderately long life of constant suffering to really look forward to, like most helots in the Hegemony do at present.

@cascat07

As if that weren’t enough the only resources you need to build said nuke are in your own veins!

Not really, to reach “nuke” levels of power you need to find the secret to tapping other people’s veins, which is where the previous rebels all failed, likely because the Hegemony was not in the current state of collapse back then and no one in the know was willing to let that secret slip…now though.
And, again, later on, we could switch to alternative methods, even if the only viable alternative turns out to be that of Hallassur, though both my mc and I hope that’s not going to be the case.

@cascat07

emergent theurges from the lower classes have been either killed or brought into the fold in the past.

My money is more on the former and the latter, particularly for helots who like the mage mc “dared to think of rising above their divinely ordained caste”.

[KuriosIasoun]

@idonotlikeusernames

well our big bad neighbours do offer an alternative model that works well enough for them.

My MC wants to do something incredibly expensive with Theurgy as soon as he takes Aekos, so he will end up doing this as well as Harrowing to fund it.

@idonotlikeusernames

So how many more potentials like that are they missing because of the moronic caste system?

No doubt many. But “The helots magnify Him by their toil and by their blood.” My MC believes this, so he doesn’t want helots learning Theurgy when they’re going to end up Harrowed anyway.

Also @Havenstone is a Theurge of the Fourth Kyklos an Ennearch or something else?

[poison_mara]

Religion. mara is a religious leadership will all the religious power to indoctrinate people So the theurge hunts and hatred to them will maintain the order clean also with destroying of the theurge structure and knowledge and the fuel they won’t be able to do really much. A religious force is very illogical by nature aand a Famine BROUGHT UPON US AS a way to clean the Theurge sins and leave only the purest survive In the angels name … It is a real life way of considering events. For instance The Noe flood is something that was related by lot of Sumerian cultures the Fall of certain empires etc etc etc…

In many cases the famine and the misery, with a charismatic and or prophets ,were factors that increased the irrational fervour and fanaticism. That and the hatred against the scapegoat that religion puts for them to hate.

An example Black death instead of destroying the entire system people went against the scapegoats supposed witches… Wenches… Jews and Muslims… Basically everyone except their terrible rulers and Church.

Another fictional yet clearly really possible if you look certain real life regimes. 1984 were famine is real. Slavery is real and people is totally subjugated because their minds are slaved by themselves to believe a charismatic image. That probably is not real anymore or was never real to begin with.

My concern is that when my Pc dies there will be a similar split of what happened in Muslims . I hope Famine will be sorted back then . And remember Shayard more or less can maintain itself . And Mara will trying to save culture and certain people from other provinces few people with significance but well the rest will be screwed. As I said Big Famine not happy famine lol. without mages and without any infrastructure left to do harrowings… they are done. I will destroy with my inquisition ALL infrastructure ALL means and ALL knowledge beforehand the famine It will be Mara main goal and main indoctrinate religious chat and make people firmly believe they are diabolical and has to be purged asap.

[KuriosIasoun]

@poison_mara

Wenches… Jews and Muslims…

All of which had little power at the time.

@poison_mara

Basically everyone except their terrible rulers and Church.

The Theurges are the rulers, and they control the current church.

@poison_mara

I will destroy with my inquisition ALL infrastructure ALL means and ALL knowledge beforehand the famine

Once you purged the Theurges that won you the war(@Havenstone has stated that you have to have some Theurges if you want to win) what will stop Sarcifer (or any other disaffected Theurge) coming down upon you with power your Inquisition cannot hope to match?

[poison_mara]

If I need a theurge to win I won’t win at all as Mara WILL NEVER ally with a theurge . With that moment comes I will choosing go away or suicide myself as I have already said multiple times to @Havenstone However the key point is I WON’T WINA A WAR there’s no war in Gandhi . I will have to create a character if THEURGE LOVE is forced to everyone. That is like force Jesus to accept Demon help when the demon tented him. And only make One solution posible and limited role playing to a very limited narrow path. No pacifist no real Shayardene path etc… also inactive anything not bloody and anything not including anarchy and murders.

So basically negates ABSOLUTELY ALL FIRST GAME for me as ZERO anarchy zero violence

[Havenstone]

@Norilinde

One way to test this would be to look at someone’s eyes using Telos-vision in a completely dark room (have to make sure there is only one possible source of light) and check if there is any outgoing light.

A note regarding the real world: If emission theory could be disproved by the experience of lightless rooms, it wouldn’t have been espoused by many of the brightest minds of an epoch. In general, I’d be careful about slipping into any history of ideas that implies pre-scientific thinkers were idiots.

Emission theory was an application of the broader epistemological principle of “like is known by like,” which wasn’t nonsense (though also not as broadly true in our world as many premodern thinkers believed). If the minute amounts of light emitted by the eyes did not encounter the light emitted by more significant sources like fires or the sun, there would be nothing to “know”/see. A dark room, on this theory, was missing one of the necessary components for sight.

To return to the gameworld, a Theurge in trance in a completely dark room would “see” light emerging from other people’s eyes. Perhaps that means that physics in the gameworld really is Aristotelian, or perhaps Telos-vision is interpretation as much as perception, strongly influenced by what you believe/expect to see.

@KuriosIasoun

the urban and rural poor as the rank and file(This is what I assume the Hegemony does right now) and nobles as officers?

This will definitely be an option. Of course, if you don’t bring the helots into your army, you’re inviting other rebels to bring them into theirs.

There is in practice a fuzzy line between the noble and merchant classes, as desperate nobles lose their land and resort to trade, while the most successful merchants marry into lower noble Houses. But the great majority of nobles are not merchants, and vice versa.

@poison_mara

Could be destroying all knowledge of theurges a valid goal?

Rejecting Theurgy and starting an anti-Theurgic inquisition will be a chooseable path. I can’t imagine it will lead to you being one of the major contending factions in Book 5 – unlike an inquisition with Theurgy – but you could end up as a faction based out of a patch of Shayard, and either come to some accommodation with the other Theurgy-using factions or live as a perpetual rebel and foe to them.

@KuriosIasoun

is a Theurge of the Fourth Kyklos an Ennearch or something else?

I’m traveling away from my notes – will check when I get back.

@KuriosIasoun

@Havenstone has stated that you have to have some Theurges if you want to win

Let me qualify that statement. If you want to be the leader of one of the major continent-spanning factions by Game 5, on a par with the biggest internal and external actors, you need to have Theurges. But that’s not going to be the only way to “win”.

You may choose to be one of the smaller factions, and consider victory to be surviving and establishing stable relations of one kind or another with the other successor states. You may choose to not consolidate your rebellion in any one bit of territory, but remain a permanent rebel challenging the status quo, either violently or non-violently.

I’ve realized that the “choice of rebels” shouldn’t be limited to creating a new empire or major nation, with all the compromises that that would inevitably entail. A purist rebel will have other choices.

[poison_mara]

Oh… I am so happy Evil Gandhi could survive and haven’t to kill her in second book. It has lot of sense as a setting. Even if for my character implies all her actions are futile and doomed due Her objectives are destroying wards and all theurge system.
Still as player I found the situation very interesting and able to study a supposedly failed path for most of people.

However @Havenstone as friend and sincere tester havie I should warning you that probably won’t be commercial as most players will never playing it as those paths will be consider as bad endings compared with more powered fantasy paths. So efficiently will probably skip that and just let more popular paths that would make you release games sooner and less working without probably not loosing many revenue.

However as a work of art It would be richer and deeper. Choose what you choose I will be here to cheer you and give honest feedback

[idonotlikeusernames]

@Havenstone

I’ve realized that the “choice of rebels” shouldn’t be limited to creating a new empire or major nation, with all the compromises that that would inevitably entail.

On the other hand for rebels, like my mc, whose vague notions are already leaning in that direction the possibility will be there, I hope. He’s not doing those literacy lessons and conspiring with bureaucrats like Bleys solely out of the kindness of his hard, as it is very much the goal to build a somewhat capable and reasonably loyal cadre of educated people who are far less tainted by Hegemony corruption than the present elites.

[Eric_knight]

I hope we won’t end up like Spartacus

[Ramidel]

@poison_mara

Even if for my character implies all her actions are futile and doomed due Her objectives are destroying wards and all theurge system.

The main problem she’s going to suffer (aside from trying to destroy theurges without using violence) is that it’s going to be extremely difficult for a rebellion without theurges to compete with a faction with theurges, for the same reason that it’s hard for an army without artillery to fight an army with artillery. But it’s nice to see that Havenstone will let us try other methodologies.

[KuriosIasoun]

@Havenstone

Of course, if you don’t bring the helots into your army, you’re inviting other rebels to bring them into theirs.

And will we get an option to put an end to these other rebels?(if possible). Also, post-Siege of Aekos will we be able to rule over a realm that controls the entirety of Shayard, South Karagon and Aekos, and parts of Erezza?
@Havenstone

[poison_mara]

i am not a meta player. My concept is not win or beat a game. My concept is live a character journey in base certain character characteristics. There is no real beat a game. So for me is really more satisfying see a Portrait of a rebellious that is morally consistent even against practical tactical values and a study of religion fanaticism and compromised your views or not for defeat the opponents.

[Havenstone]

@poison_mara

However as a work of art It would be richer and deeper.

Thanks, Mara. I choose richer and deeper.

@idonotlikeusernames

to build a somewhat capable and reasonably loyal cadre of educated people who are far less tainted by Hegemony corruption than the present elites.

This is possible–I didn’t include those options just for people to demonstrate the kindness of their hearts. That said, kicking out the entire current elite will make it hard to administer/ defend a territory of significant scale; literacy is well and good, but the more complex a managerial task becomes, the more you need people with experience. It’s a good thing you’re willing to hang on to Bleys.

@Ramidel

it’s hard for an army without artillery to fight an army with artillery

This is of course highly dependent on the victory conditions for the fight in question. Afghanistan offers successive examples of how hard it can be for an army with artillery (and helicopter gunships, armor, etc.) to beat one without. An MC who’s determined to deny themselves the gameworld equivalents of advanced weaponry should be looking for hard-to-hold terrain and a strong ideological base.

@KuriosIasoun

will we get an option to put an end to these other rebels?

You’ll certainly have the option to try.

@KuriosIasoun

will we be able to rule over a realm that controls the entirety of Shayard, South Karagon and Aekos, and parts of Erezza?

You can definitely aim for “Shayard Redeemed,” bringing back all the areas that were historically part of Shayard. (That includes Steswick, currently part of Whendery, as well as the Veldrine Hills in Karagon and Aveche in Errets.) I’m not yet sure whether Aekos will be worth including in your proto-empire. It does, after all, have a mountain floating over the middle of it, the rest will be badly affected by the events of Game 4, and whatever of it survives will be the natural home base of one of the post-Hegemonic factions. But we’ll see.

[poison_mara]

Still I will try to be pragmatic to give a practical perspective because you can’t branche for eternity. Lol @Havenstone this is a balance gymnast exercise.

Still I will understand if more pacifist or bad state are less developed. Focus in money and what your fans want. I think fighting and theurge are far more popular and certainly you should may focuses on that just my opinion. Is your game.

[KuriosIasoun]

@Havenstone

Aveche in Errets.)

Is Aveche smaller, or larger than Grand Shayard? And by the end of the game if the MC is one of the major players, would a two(or three) province empire be a reasonable goal?

@Havenstone

hard-to-hold terrain

Depending on the Theurgic power of Mara’s enemies, they could probably use Theurgy to flatten it(if it’s mountainous), burn it(if it’s forest), or simply drop a mountain range on it, if Mara’s anti-Theurgic Inquisition is dangerous enough to merit that.

@Havenstone

and whatever of it survives will be the natural home base of one of the post-Hegemonic factions.

So, I’m guessing they’ll be like the current Ghiscari after the destruction of Old Ghis. Speaking of which, is Aekos a trade or industrial centre, or something else?

Also, will we have an option to (after Game 4) dedicate our forces to partisan-hunting and wiping out insurgents? Speaking of which, will post-Hegemonic Shayard be at Afghanistan levels of insurgents and terrorism? As well as that, will there be any factions who have major Theurgic power? Sorry about the amount of questions, btw.