Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!

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#2024

If I recall correctly, to be precise, the MC also says that the MC does not understand most of the things the MC “sees” with Telos-vision. So perhaps Telos-vision is filtered through the MC’s understanding of things which might partially explain the need for education to be able to use Telos-vision properly.

Hmmm. Really either option has interesting implications. :thinking:

@Havenstone I guess technically, there really would be light coming out of the eyes even in the real world. Of course, in the real world that light is reflected. If a MC tries to redirect the outgoing light and just happens to redirect the incoming light as well, that could easily blind someone which would be a third possibility. Maybe the MC never thought to check if there was more incoming light than outgoing light. A case of not searching for more once the MC found what the MC expected to find.

One way to test this would be to look at someone’s eyes using Telos-vision in a completely dark room (have to make sure there is only one possible source of light) and check if there is any outgoing light. That is a falsifiable hypothesis.


#2025

I think it was @cascat07 who pointed out long ago that Theurgy seemed in tension with the scientific method – not because it was anti-intellectual or anti-technological (it’s been the basis for a rich intellectual and practical tradition), but because it seems to rely much more on direct intuition of the Truth rather than the steady accretion of knowledge through falsification of hypotheses.

He’s got a point.


#2026

Flawed interpretations of observational data can happen in real world science. It is harder to isolate variables and only test one thing at a time when Telos-vision gives a huge amount of information of which Theurges only understand a small fraction. When a Theurge might be changing multiple variables at once without even realizing some of those variables exist, that could certainly complicate things.


#2027

Or telos vision itself is an illusory interpretation of what is happening generated by your monkey brain when it’s aether is being consumed. I doubt we would attribute much empirical strength to the insights gleaned while under the influence of LSD. We know for certain that Yebbin’s telos vison is significantly different than the MC’s for example.


#2028

We know that Yebben’s Telos-vision starts significantly different. Whether the MC and Yebben will end up with the same Telos-vision when they are both more experienced will be interesting to learn. After all, we know from lore that more experienced Theurges that are not blind could detect the potential in aetherial blood just like Yebben. We’ll also have to find out how Abhumans and the Unquiet Dead view things.


#2029

Unquiet Dead should be mindless zombies, i don’t think they could think or view things logically :wink:

@KuriosIasoun perhaps they could be Tomb Kings of warhammer, i don’t think they are vampires :slight_smile:


#2030

They aren’t “mindless zombies” and personally I’m pleased that Havenstone has made his undead more intelligent and unique than “mindless zombies”.

@Havenstone In G4 when we start gaining control over major areas, could the MC’s frontline troops or at the very least, their Theurges and cavalry not be former helots (For MCs who are planning to force them back into servitude, a trained army made up of them might not be a good idea) and instead have the urban and rural poor as the rank and file(This is what I assume the Hegemony does right now) and nobles as officers? Or will we not have the resources to field any army that is not primarily made up of helots? Also, are there many nobles in the merchant class?


#2031

My character concern about theurges is more How kill them all in a way that looks like Mara is choosen one and destroy absolutely all the knowledge of blood magic.

@Havenstone Could be destroying all knowledge of theurges a valid goal? Because is not only kill Mages Mara objective is destroying that knowledge that created Wards and all the killing loop in the Empire too starting after the Big famine a social system more fair and more manageable with no need to sacrifice half of population


#2032

I’ve been reading accidental superpower, and it has got me thinking about the importance of geography and technology on the destiny of a nation state. I just can’t see a way out of the Therugy trap unless the MC’s post-hegemony empire can grow so powerful as to technologically dominate all its competitors. Therugy is just too accessible. It’s like if you could make nukes in your basement.


#2033

I wouldn’t say that, given how rare 2 INT is, let alone anything above that. If you’re a helot, it’s implied you are the first ever helot Theurge. My MC’s solution to Theurgy is to create an all-noble Theurge’s Guild, which any noble who has the skill to be a Theurge can become one(currently only nobles who’s families are fanatically loyal to the Hegemony can become Theurges, which severely limits the Hegemony’s recruitment pool). The army will follow Hegemonic doctrines with regards to tactics.

@Havenstone If we are not a particularly skilled combatant, will we have the option to commission a Theurge-forged sword (and armour if it exists) for ourselves to “even the odds”?


#2034

If you kill absolutely all people that can make theurge the society is done. Only very few can do theurge and the knowledge is hidden and protected in few places. This reminds me The Asimov foundation saga. How an empire of thousands of years and stars that contains all knowledgeable universe could collapse and degrade in so few years. But that happened in real history.

A social group could pretend be stronger but smallest issues and economic problems neglected by The hegemony makes it a giant with muddy legs. Based in a economic system unsustainable. MORE AND MORE AND MORE blood is needed just to maintaining the current population and for that you need more and more and more slaves to fuel the same farms to feed them. And growth is needed for Hegemonic system maintaining the problems and political turmoil out of capital. Leaders need more and more conquest to control more big army to control the more big population. All growth in arhyming no system can’t cover in a long run.

They are in a total collapse situation even without player revolution. The corruption the silent turmoil and all that is in the society and in the Helot caste that have to bleeding and maintaining and structure that has been giving a size far beyond any sense of stability.

It all smells that Babylon is about falling. Now It woul see if Pc could direct the pieces of it one way or another.


#2035

Quite the opposite and @Havenstone has indicated that other emergent theurges from the lower classes have been either killed or brought into the fold in the past.

Think about our merry little band. Nearly all escaped slaves, in the wilderness, starving, and some MCs have managed to self-train at least two on the way to more. No matter how hard the Taliban or ISIS want a nuke they will never be able to get one much less build two themselves based on what is essentially reading a paragraph and thinking about it weally hard.

As if that weren’t enough the only resources you need to build said nuke are in your own veins!


#2036

That’s reason Hegemony hidden so much knowledge. If people really know how easy is their control would be broken. They liveinto a illusory control. If people just notice that their magic could be replicated they will lost control. However if everyone knows that well society is done forever all will broken in small war lords situation where blood wars will be incessant to fuel the ambitious leaders theurges


#2037

And that still wouldn’t work in the long run because that advantage levels off fast. Japan went from medieval levels of technology to modern nation super power in less than 20 years. Now that’s a limit case but you see my point.

I think the accessibility of theurgy is more a factor in the maintenance of internal order then in the balance of power between nations. In the second case the blood economy is a much bigger determinant.

But yes, opting out of theurgy completely is a decision that will come with a suicidally high price tag. Quite the cruel little world @Havenstone has created.


#2038

I called the price the big famine. And my guess Is About 60% percent of total Hegemony empire population will die for it. And absolutely all the capital province. Evil Gandhi’s goal is save shayard and most possible of the others provinces culture and population The empire centre however will be looted and left to rotten. Loot will be sent to buy supplies Food will be distributed fairly to maintain all possible famine away during the transition to a sustainable economy with a sane population growth and a land capable of sustain it. But yeah… This will be similar to the black death plague that killed half European population in few decades


#2039

But will the drachem hold it’s value in the chaos wide-spread famine would bring? And for that matter, where will the supplies be coming from? All the money in the world cannot buy food when there is no food to buy.

And how will you maintain order in all of Shayard(which is as big as Greenland) without Theurgy?

Don’t forget that even if you brutally sack Aekos and all the other cities, there will still be rogue Theurges about, and without Theurgy of your own, you cannot hope to best them. And when they make an offer to your new subjects, telling them that they can end the famine if they accept them as overlords, how do you think your people will reply?


#2040

Limiting it to “nobles” still means you won’t tap your full potential. I mean Yebben and the helot theurge mc are both non-nobles, to put it mildly, from the same backwards, backwoods podunk village. So how many more potentials like that are they missing because of the moronic caste system?

Only in the current system, if there is no other way out of the “theurgy trap”…well our big bad neighbours do offer an alternative model that works well enough for them. Of course it means tapping the more potent stuff from babies, but at least they won’t have a moderately long life of constant suffering to really look forward to, like most helots in the Hegemony do at present.

Not really, to reach “nuke” levels of power you need to find the secret to tapping other people’s veins, which is where the previous rebels all failed, likely because the Hegemony was not in the current state of collapse back then and no one in the know was willing to let that secret slip…now though.
And, again, later on, we could switch to alternative methods, even if the only viable alternative turns out to be that of Hallassur, though both my mc and I hope that’s not going to be the case.

My money is more on the former and the latter, particularly for helots who like the mage mc “dared to think of rising above their divinely ordained caste”. :unamused:


#2041

My MC wants to do something incredibly expensive with Theurgy as soon as he takes Aekos, so he will end up doing this as well as Harrowing to fund it.

No doubt many. But “The helots magnify Him by their toil and by their blood.” My MC believes this, so he doesn’t want helots learning Theurgy when they’re going to end up Harrowed anyway.

Also @Havenstone is a Theurge of the Fourth Kyklos an Ennearch or something else?


#2042

Religion. mara is a religious leadership will all the religious power to indoctrinate people So the theurge hunts and hatred to them will maintain the order clean also with destroying of the theurge structure and knowledge and the fuel they won’t be able to do really much. A religious force is very illogical by nature aand a Famine BROUGHT UPON US AS a way to clean the Theurge sins and leave only the purest survive In the angels name … It is a real life way of considering events. For instance The Noe flood is something that was related by lot of Sumerian cultures the Fall of certain empires etc etc etc…

In many cases the famine and the misery, with a charismatic and or prophets ,were factors that increased the irrational fervour and fanaticism. That and the hatred against the scapegoat that religion puts for them to hate.

An example Black death instead of destroying the entire system people went against the scapegoats supposed witches… Wenches… Jews and Muslims… Basically everyone except their terrible rulers and Church.

Another fictional yet clearly really possible if you look certain real life regimes. 1984 were famine is real. Slavery is real and people is totally subjugated because their minds are slaved by themselves to believe a charismatic image. That probably is not real anymore or was never real to begin with.

My concern is that when my Pc dies there will be a similar split of what happened in Muslims . I hope Famine will be sorted back then . And remember Shayard more or less can maintain itself . And Mara will trying to save culture and certain people from other provinces few people with significance but well the rest will be screwed. As I said Big Famine not happy famine lol. without mages and without any infrastructure left to do harrowings… they are done. I will destroy with my inquisition ALL infrastructure ALL means and ALL knowledge beforehand the famine It will be Mara main goal and main indoctrinate religious chat and make people firmly believe they are diabolical and has to be purged asap.


#2043

All of which had little power at the time.

The Theurges are the rulers, and they control the current church.

Once you purged the Theurges that won you the war(@Havenstone has stated that you have to have some Theurges if you want to win) what will stop Sarcifer (or any other disaffected Theurge) coming down upon you with power your Inquisition cannot hope to match?