Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!



If I need a theurge to win I won’t win at all as Mara WILL NEVER ally with a theurge . With that moment comes I will choosing go away or suicide myself as I have already said multiple times to @Havenstone However the key point is I WON’T WINA A WAR there’s no war in Gandhi . I will have to create a character if THEURGE LOVE is forced to everyone. That is like force Jesus to accept Demon help when the demon tented him. And only make One solution posible and limited role playing to a very limited narrow path. No pacifist no real Shayardene path etc… also inactive anything not bloody and anything not including anarchy and murders.

So basically negates ABSOLUTELY ALL FIRST GAME for me as ZERO anarchy zero violence


A note regarding the real world: If emission theory could be disproved by the experience of lightless rooms, it wouldn’t have been espoused by many of the brightest minds of an epoch. In general, I’d be careful about slipping into any history of ideas that implies pre-scientific thinkers were idiots. :slight_smile:

Emission theory was an application of the broader epistemological principle of “like is known by like,” which wasn’t nonsense (though also not as broadly true in our world as many premodern thinkers believed). If the minute amounts of light emitted by the eyes did not encounter the light emitted by more significant sources like fires or the sun, there would be nothing to “know”/see. A dark room, on this theory, was missing one of the necessary components for sight.

To return to the gameworld, a Theurge in trance in a completely dark room would “see” light emerging from other people’s eyes. Perhaps that means that physics in the gameworld really is Aristotelian, or perhaps Telos-vision is interpretation as much as perception, strongly influenced by what you believe/expect to see.

This will definitely be an option. Of course, if you don’t bring the helots into your army, you’re inviting other rebels to bring them into theirs.

There is in practice a fuzzy line between the noble and merchant classes, as desperate nobles lose their land and resort to trade, while the most successful merchants marry into lower noble Houses. But the great majority of nobles are not merchants, and vice versa.

Rejecting Theurgy and starting an anti-Theurgic inquisition will be a chooseable path. I can’t imagine it will lead to you being one of the major contending factions in Book 5 – unlike an inquisition with Theurgy – but you could end up as a faction based out of a patch of Shayard, and either come to some accommodation with the other Theurgy-using factions or live as a perpetual rebel and foe to them.

I’m traveling away from my notes – will check when I get back.

Let me qualify that statement. If you want to be the leader of one of the major continent-spanning factions by Game 5, on a par with the biggest internal and external actors, you need to have Theurges. But that’s not going to be the only way to “win”.

You may choose to be one of the smaller factions, and consider victory to be surviving and establishing stable relations of one kind or another with the other successor states. You may choose to not consolidate your rebellion in any one bit of territory, but remain a permanent rebel challenging the status quo, either violently or non-violently.

I’ve realized that the “choice of rebels” shouldn’t be limited to creating a new empire or major nation, with all the compromises that that would inevitably entail. A purist rebel will have other choices.


Oh… I am so happy Evil Gandhi could survive and haven’t to kill her in second book. It has lot of sense as a setting. Even if for my character implies all her actions are futile and doomed due Her objectives are destroying wards and all theurge system.
Still as player I found the situation very interesting and able to study a supposedly failed path for most of people.

However @Havenstone as friend and sincere tester havie I should warning you that probably won’t be commercial as most players will never playing it as those paths will be consider as bad endings compared with more powered fantasy paths. So efficiently will probably skip that and just let more popular paths that would make you release games sooner and less working without probably not loosing many revenue.

However as a work of art It would be richer and deeper. Choose what you choose I will be here to cheer you and give honest feedback


On the other hand for rebels, like my mc, whose vague notions are already leaning in that direction the possibility will be there, I hope. He’s not doing those literacy lessons and conspiring with bureaucrats like Bleys solely out of the kindness of his hard, as it is very much the goal to build a somewhat capable and reasonably loyal cadre of educated people who are far less tainted by Hegemony corruption than the present elites.


I hope we won’t end up like Spartacus :wink:


The main problem she’s going to suffer (aside from trying to destroy theurges without using violence) is that it’s going to be extremely difficult for a rebellion without theurges to compete with a faction with theurges, for the same reason that it’s hard for an army without artillery to fight an army with artillery. But it’s nice to see that Havenstone will let us try other methodologies.


And will we get an option to put an end to these other rebels?(if possible). Also, post-Siege of Aekos will we be able to rule over a realm that controls the entirety of Shayard, South Karagon and Aekos, and parts of Erezza?


i am not a meta player. My concept is not win or beat a game. My concept is live a character journey in base certain character characteristics. There is no real beat a game. So for me is really more satisfying see a Portrait of a rebellious that is morally consistent even against practical tactical values and a study of religion fanaticism and compromised your views or not for defeat the opponents.


Thanks, Mara. I choose richer and deeper. :slight_smile:

This is possible–I didn’t include those options just for people to demonstrate the kindness of their hearts. :slight_smile: That said, kicking out the entire current elite will make it hard to administer/ defend a territory of significant scale; literacy is well and good, but the more complex a managerial task becomes, the more you need people with experience. It’s a good thing you’re willing to hang on to Bleys.

This is of course highly dependent on the victory conditions for the fight in question. Afghanistan offers successive examples of how hard it can be for an army with artillery (and helicopter gunships, armor, etc.) to beat one without. An MC who’s determined to deny themselves the gameworld equivalents of advanced weaponry should be looking for hard-to-hold terrain and a strong ideological base.

You’ll certainly have the option to try. :slight_smile:

You can definitely aim for “Shayard Redeemed,” bringing back all the areas that were historically part of Shayard. (That includes Steswick, currently part of Whendery, as well as the Veldrine Hills in Karagon and Aveche in Errets.) I’m not yet sure whether Aekos will be worth including in your proto-empire. It does, after all, have a mountain floating over the middle of it, the rest will be badly affected by the events of Game 4, and whatever of it survives will be the natural home base of one of the post-Hegemonic factions. But we’ll see.


Still I will try to be pragmatic to give a practical perspective because you can’t branche for eternity. Lol @Havenstone this is a balance gymnast exercise.

Still I will understand if more pacifist or bad state are less developed. Focus in money and what your fans want. I think fighting and theurge are far more popular and certainly you should may focuses on that just my opinion. Is your game.


Is Aveche smaller, or larger than Grand Shayard? And by the end of the game if the MC is one of the major players, would a two(or three) province empire be a reasonable goal?

Depending on the Theurgic power of Mara’s enemies, they could probably use Theurgy to flatten it(if it’s mountainous), burn it(if it’s forest), or simply drop a mountain range on it, if Mara’s anti-Theurgic Inquisition is dangerous enough to merit that.

So, I’m guessing they’ll be like the current Ghiscari after the destruction of Old Ghis. Speaking of which, is Aekos a trade or industrial centre, or something else?

Also, will we have an option to (after Game 4) dedicate our forces to partisan-hunting and wiping out insurgents? Speaking of which, will post-Hegemonic Shayard be at Afghanistan levels of insurgents and terrorism? As well as that, will there be any factions who have major Theurgic power? Sorry about the amount of questions, btw.


And other small officials like him. Helps that in their own way they are almost as abused by the Alastors and the current elites as my mc is but for the certainty of a life-ending Harrowing.

Fortunately for my mc the rural nobility at least can be done away with entirely by simply exposing how completely and utterly reliant they have become on the agricultural theurges. And I’ve already said that when my mc needs to make ugly compromises he by far prefers to make them with the merchant class, not the nobles or the priests, where in the latter case every priest ranked ecclesiast and above is assumed to be a counterrevolutionary traitor by default and the plan is to both open up the religious market for competition and leave then leaderless diakons cut off from state funding and in competition with each other and the new entrants on the religious market to fend for themselves, so as to foster a healthy competition among the lawful religions.

My mc’s state will definitely claim to be the legitimate successor state to the entirety of the Hegemony, or rather all of the pre-Hegemony states. It seems that in the practice of game 5’s competing states it will be centered around Avezia, which means it likely starts out controlling just significant parts of Shayard, Errezza and perhaps a bit of Nyral. .
Needless to say my mc will not be going for “Shayard redeemed” as getting buy-in from the other people and cultures is vitally important to him. In addition, the sort of ancient “Shayardene culture” that would seem to drive the “Shayard redeemed” type of nationalism is not even his own culture. Insofar as it has not been irrevocably corrupted by centuries of Hegemony oppression our mc’s “culture” is Anglo-Shayardene who used to be relatively oppressed and backward even back in Shayard’s glory days when it a was the French-Shayardene culture that was considered to be the Shayardene “high culture” of nobles and royals. :unamused:

That being said any other factions holding bits of Shayard, likely the Laconniers, will be the highest priority to try to put an end to and not just because there’s a high chance the other surviving Shayardene faction are likely to be those Laconniers my mc hates with a passion.

It’s not called grand, but it is the premier city to my mc. Also if he ever does get that canal that would provide a huge incentive for urban development in Avezia as well as a yet to build city (or more likely one that might grow out of what is now a podunk fishing village) on the northern shore at the other terminus of the canal.

Both, all the Hegemony infrastructure, what roads and canals there are all lead to Aekos and Aekos seems to be designed to be the hub of the whole system with everything significant having to be routed through there. Which is certainly one reason why my mc would favour an expansion of maritime trade and the canal, for cities and villages along the coasts ports are cheaper to build and maintain than a new state highway system that does not solely route towards Karagon. though, yes, new roads will probably have to be built too.


You do realise your MC will be the primary target for any post-revolutionary religious factions? And all of the helots who believe in the Angels(a lot of them). And your MC(if I am correct) is fully specialising in INT, which means he won’t have anywhere near the charisma to convince anyone that this is a good idea.


@KuriosIasoun, the city of Aveche/Avezia is smaller than Shayard City, but the region of Aveche is fairly sizeable – almost as big as the Rim.

A 2-3 province empire will be possible, as indeed will a new Hegemony across all 5 provinces if you beat all the rival contenders and form a stable social order of some kind. As for reasonability, though, a multi-province empire will be a lot harder than consolidating your grasp over Shayard alone, in whole or part, and each province you try to add will increase the challenge.

To be clear, the scale of Theurgy required to deal with mountain ranges goes beyond what even the legends talk about. Dropping a single mountain is rather a big deal and doesn’t happen often. As for burning/flooding, the infamous Scouring of the Westriding didn’t manage entirely to snuff out Cabel’s rebellion, and that was in some of the least friendly imaginable terrain for guerrillas. A Hegemony with a now far more strained blood supply and an emboldened foe on the eastern border would be mad to try to Scour you out of the Whendward or Wiendrj itself.

Aekos is (as idnlun says) the heart of the Karagond trading/finance system, and also contains plenty of high value industrial production.

How much of your time you can spend on counter-insurgency will rather depend on how much territory you’re trying to conquer. The level of violence and chaos in post-Hegemonic Shayard has a numeric variable attached to it which you will continue to do quite a lot to influence. And yes, the 3-4 most important post-Thaumatarchy factions (not counting yours) will all come with extremely experienced Theurges at or near the helm.

While they’re certainly a class vulnerable to accusations of uselessness, it’s worth noting that nobles also include a significant proportion of the legitmate and knowledgable administrators of the rural Hegemony. The aristarch-level families are often much more effective than the Alastors, especially since the latter took their turn toward rent-seeking. You can definitely adopt a “hang the last noble with the entrails of the last priest” strategy, but not without losing some capacities that you’ll find yourself missing as you try to rebuild your massive new empire.

Well, that’s what Breden is for. (Wait–what did you do with Breden again, idnlun?)


If the MC is a 6 INT Theurge, will that be enough to count their factions as one of those? Also, will the 1 attribute point come at the start, middle or end of each game? As well as that, will we get the opportunity to loot the Lykeion, if we can’t have Aekos as our capital?


They are free to believe in the angels, just not in the Karagond codex or the caste system and since the current upper hierarchy of the Church is inextricably linked with the Hegemonic state. Where the Soviet Union had its mirroring of party and state ranks and positions the Hegemony seems to do the same thing with the Church to the point where all of the most senior Hegemony leaders are also the leaders and prophets of the church, the “eclects” and the Hegemony is a (de-jure) theocracy with the priesthood nominally in control of the Alastors and so on. Decapitating the Church is likely not nearly the most difficult thing to do and once that happens and the diakons are cut off both from their leadership hierarchy and state funding then to survive the successful will actually need to seriously start tending to their often primarily former helot flock and actually become responsive to their needs if they want to survive, in addition to having to observe the new restrictions on lawful religions.
Though those are mainly a prohibition on preaching caste and slavery (and unofficially the new state will take a dim view of religions/churches growing too large and making a play for temporal power and they will quickly suffer “incidents” where compelling evidence is found that they are unreconstructed and unrepentant preachers of the banned Karagond Codex). :wink:

It’s also a moot point as they would never support my mc under any circumstances (or at least any remotely acceptable to my mc), nor vice versa. As fundamentally someone like my mc is not even human to them. Even if my mc wanted to convince a portion of the nobility it would likely be easier to go with the ones who rarely if ever leave the city and thus have next to no interaction with helots and convince them of his basic humanity by showing that his helots are basically no different from the poor but free city folk. Rural nobles have the firm belief that helots are not human and that brutality is needed instilled far closer to their hearts, so to speak and would be next to impossible to convince otherwise.

Also, they likely rely on their own equivalents of Bleys to actually do anything and those are the people my mc aims to steal away from them anyway. Again, like Bleys, hopefully many of those people would be capable of growing into much more senior administrative roles than they currently occupy with the newly literate former helots under them (and some of them like my mc and Pin and Yebben above them).

My mc doesn’t trust Breden and will dispose of them once he has found a charismatic co-conspirator who actually shares his skepticism. So, yes, he’s planning to dispose of Breden asap, as he really doesn’t trust the guy/gal.

Well since my mc is a mage too, you can count his own faction too in his case. We always knew that was gonna be true however and that is why my mc hopes to pick up a number of tricks in the Xaos lands and maybe even from the unquiet dead later on that most of his magical contenders either don’t know or won’t deign (or dare) to use. Xaos storm over Aekos (hopefully), anyone? :wink:
In contrast to Mara, since in his personal experience magic is what set him free and him being a mage is what most exposes the fact that “theurgy” is definitely not a divine gift from the benevolent angels he’s hardly going to give it up. Reform how it is used or practiced perhaps, but definitely not give it up.


At 6 INT, you’d have a decent chance in a toe-to-toe Theurgic duel against 3 out of 4 of the ones I have in mind. (The last one would require, let’s say, a 9 INT or special circumstances.)

In terms of dominating the post-Hegemonic order through Theurgy, the number of other Theurges you can train/attract to your faction is more important than your personal ability to win an Avada-Kedavra-off. A 6 INT MC could do very well there. So of course could a charismatic MC. But only an INT MC could train your own, as opposed to having to cut a deal with the primary perpetrators of the existing blood harvesting system.

You will definitely have the opportunity to loot the Lykeion in Game 4. And the stat bumps will come early in each game.

I’ll refrain from comment until you’ve spoken with Cerlota. :slight_smile:


Sarcifer confirmed! GET HYPE! Also, @idonotlikeusernames I’ve got a feeling he’s doing exactly what you want to do with regards to tricks from the Xaos-lands.

Has there ever been an XoR character who’s gotten 9 INT?

We can still cut a deal in exchange for other things, right? Even a high-INT MC might want some more experienced Theurges around them, rather than acolytes.

Sarcifer, I’d guess.


What the heck even is the last one then? :astonished: A (fallen) “angel” made flesh? Or arch-lich Gaesh or the Stormbringer ruler of Brorachia in disguise or something? As we cannot actually even reach INT9 in-game. And you did equate the solely int-focused mc to Merlin once, so one presumes a legend in and of themselves, even without leading a rebellion, solely based on magical skills.

A very significant advantage and likely the very thing that makes my mc’s successor state even remotely possible as ideologically it could likely not survive to have to cut a deal of that magnitude with (one or more of) the current “eclects” who also tend to be the current Hegemony’s top mages.

Maybe Yebben, assuming he starts at INT3 (with zero in both of the others, but then again it seems zero or .5 stats with just one 1 are actually the most common for most people) and gets six stat-raising opportunities, instead of the mc’s 5, due to not having the pressure of also having to be a leader and being able to devote himself more to magic. :thinking: On the other hand even a super Yebben seems more likely to level out at 7, if he really is the superior magical talent in the rebellion over even mage mc. Which means something like 8 or 9 may only be possible with millennia of added knowledge and study, which seems unlikely even for Sarcifer, unless “Sarcifer” is actually the “Stormbringer” or the Arch-lich in disguise.

See above, unless “Sarcifer” is the flesh disguise of another being that’s hardly cause for jubilation, after all if Sarcifer actually is like the story tells he’s just another noble who made it to eclect and you don’t do that unless you are prepared to see helots as sub-human blood-cattle, which would not bode well for my mc. :worried:
Havenstone also has them as the leader of their own faction and my mc after having been a sub-human slave all his life is not anxious to have to play the good little, subordinate slave ever again.


Not many in the gameworld, no. :slight_smile: While I don’t usually apply the PC stat system to NPCs, I suppose we could say that Thaumatarch Kleitos, who uses so many Talismans he’s barely human anymore, is an INT 7. Ennearchs are by and large INT 5s.

Did you really think I was going to answer that?

Yes. As we get into the late game, there will potentially be a lot of factors leading experienced Theurges to be disillusioned, demoralized, or just desperate enough to join a rebel faction, whatever the rebel leader’s charisma.