Choice of Rebels: Stormwright (XoR2 WIP)

Going to push back on this point a bit, because I think the opposite. Harrowing is fundamentally not needed, and the text not only explores why, but it nevertheless offers players the choice of rejecting or embracing the institution, or defining something in between.

The most clear-cut case of a world without literal Harrowing is trivial to find: we just need to look around at our world. Blood magic is ultimately a distortion of our understanding, rather than a total upending: it alters technology, scientific study, culture, and the basic fabric of society, yes — but people remain people, and power remains power. The story resonates because this foundation remains the same even within the fantasy: a foundation that isn’t reliant on any single technology.

All Harrowing is, in the end, is theft. It’s a shortcut to power. Everyone has the potential to be a Maker of Change; the Seracca prove that. But that power is not simply Theurgy — it’s the way that every life alters the lives around it and the world itself, sometimes in just the smallest of ways, made manifest as “aether”, which renders form and purpose itself malleable. The Harrower cuts that life, with all its potential, short; for as long as anyone lives, they have the power to do something and shape their future. Whereas death would normally dissipate that potential, the Harrower steals it for the Theurge to wield.

After all, Stormwright shows that Harrowing is not necessary to create aetherial blood. Any task of blood magic must therefore be possible without Harrowing — only their practicality is called into question, making this a question of logistics, not a question of necessity. Those logistics may not be viable in the immediate wake of imperial collapse, but they are permitted by the parameters of the world. That’s the underlying basis for a blood tax: something we might only achieve imperfectly and at a smaller scale, but as Havenstone notes upthread:

Harrowing is not a necessity to the order of the World — it’s only a necessity to the Order of the Thaumatarchy, which they insist is one and the same with that of the universe. Ending Harrowing means ending society as the Thaumatarchy knows it — but it is not the end of society itself.

I think our rebels can justify Harrowing: its fruits are sweet, and the foreseeable consequences for ending it entirely are steep. Starvation, reality-warping storms, being on the receiving end of vampiric imperialism — these are not desirable outcomes. But Harrowing is not the only solution, just the easiest. There will be people who are easy to mark as unworthy of coexistence in our world: for instance, I’ve seen little meaningful opposition on this forum so far to the idea of Harrowing the worst of the worst criminals, by our standards (after all, by the Thaumatarchy’s standards, we are one such criminal): it’s not too difficult to argue that those seemingly monsters in human skin would be more worthwhile to the world as raw power wielded by somebody else, instead of as living people.

But I don’t think we can call that necessity without dipping into sophistry. It’s our choice, and always has been our choice. That’s what gives the act weight.


After all, from the very beginning, we’ve been faced with the choice of Harrowing. We’ve always been able to question its necessity; and we’ve always had the choice to believe that it’s preferable to the alternatives. That begins with our potential expression of Compassion to Breden, when naming our motivations for rebellion. It carries through the Fourth Harrowing — our choice if those lives are better lived or made into fuel. It’s so intuitive there to break the Harrower. We can argue with Horion over the role of the Harrower, and respond to his story of the Xaos-lands — but even in the end, we have the choice to say there must be another way. The man who returned from Xaos, Yed, sparks debate over what it could mean for the Xaos-Ward to fall, and whether it’s worth its price in human life. And to the end, in Stormwright, when faced with the models of the Thaumatarchy and Halassurq Empire, we are allowed this choice:

Both Hegemony and Halassur are nightmares. I’ll never accept that there’s no alternative.

It’s a natural choice for those rebels who have, since the beginning of the game, dreamed of breaking the Harrower. It’s not only thinkable, but explored, challenged, and reaffirmed as the world is unveiled and our characters’ horizons expand.


I don’t think there’s evidence to suggest it isn’t naturally occurring. Aether can be found naturally in the XoR world, bound in falling stars meteors; what’s unusual is that aether exists in a stable form within humans. And the Seracca perspective of Theurgy cuts out the role of aether nearly in its entirety, and yet they are able to manipulate the world and even alter the mechanisms by which Change happens in a way that’s far more efficient than Theurges have accomplished (the meta-telos suspension Cerlota mentions when leaving Sojourn).

“Yes, yes, the Theurges speak of elements. We know. As if mere matter could ever change the teloi of things, simply because it comes from on high. We must ensure that you do not absorb this confusion. The Theurges are lost to themselves, unable to recognize their own spirits in the mirror of their blood-element.”

Consequently, our question becomes one of how intertwined aether is with the spirit of human experience. Is it a fundamental part of what makes people, well, people? I lean strongly towards it being so, chiefly for the symbolic value. Theurgy seems to be written as an innate aspect of humanity: a divine spark, so to speak, though I’d not personally call it divine, rather than a singular power originating from an energy source that can be turned on or off.


Technology’s weird in XoR, yeah, as a result of the distortions made by blood magic. The direct aesthetic inspiration for the Karagond Hegemony, from our history, would count as both Roman and medieval: the Byzantine Empire (of particular note, given Halassur’s Turkish influences…); but our experience of the world has been entirely in the periphery of empire, the backwater of backwaters. We can catch a glimpse of Grand Shayard back in Uprising by being captured and Slow-Harrowed, and:

for the first time in your life you see other machines that look as elaborate as Harrowers, but turned to the spinning of wool, the grinding of flour, or the weaving of cloth. Your captors tell you before you arrive that twenty-two hundred Rim Squares would fit comfortably into Grand Shayard…but that’s a reality beyond imagining until you see the smudge in the sky from a hundred thousand house-fires, and finally look down onto a vertiginously huge city, ramshackle houses spreading out to the horizon on all sides.

We see it’s far more like an early industrial city — just with mechanisms fueled by blood magic.

Firearms are also a victim of blood magic: they aren’t viable as weapons of war because gunpowder is volatile enough that any Theurge could ignite it with a thought. That weakness isn’t present in air guns, and so technology shifted in that direction. It’s unclear whether rifling has been developed yet, but if it has, the Girardoni air rifle might represent a meaningful historical analogue to the ventisputori.


I’m not sure where this is, exactly. Even in the ending where our protagonist is captured, Slow-Harrowed, and paraded across Shayard, a Theurge MC is described as “under constant Theurgic guard”, reflective of a mechanism we are aware of — Theurges can detect and counter Changes as they happen. But that’s effectively just Theurges countering Theurges.

We do have a noteworthy case of suppressing Theurgy in Stormwright, if we’re captured by reivers. That mechanism: torturous poison that places us in constant delirium and “all-consuming pain”. We see this with Calea as well, where she can kill even a Theurge MC by incapacitating them first with a paralysis agent. And even then, in both cases, it’s unclear whether a far more skilled Theurge could detect and neutralise the poisons before they take effect.

Don’t let them think, or don’t let them bleed. Both are challenging. Neither leaves the Theurge as much use, of course.


Unironically, family. Human connection. Ensuring that the people they care about are safe — and an implicit threat that destroying our world means destroying their world too.

Theurges under the Thaumatarchy stand above society. They are a caste unto themselves, perhaps made less than human in the pursuit of becoming something more.

“We do not, cannot, have families in the same sense as everyone else […] After our first few months studying in the Lykeion, our teachers convey to us that henceforth if we spend time with our loved ones, it will draw the Kryptasts’ attention to them, to see if they show any sign of having learned secrets they should not.”

This isn’t just censorship: it gives Theurges no way out of the life the Thaumatarchy has ordained for them. But it doesn’t have to be this way.

Take Yebben for example: his loyalties are not solely rooted in our ability to harm him. He has loyalties to his family, his friends, his comrades-in-arms: to the people he’s starved alongside, and the people he serves. We don’t have reason to believe Yebben would betray the Whendward Band, given power — in fact, he’s willing to sacrifice himself for the band with Theurgy. To exist among people is to form these bonds that anchor us to the world. That power offers leverage — and any society incorporating blood magic will have to negotiate against that leverage — but loyalties run deeper than that.

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So like giving the few Theurges that are interested, something that they can be apart off and not have to be cut off from their family and friends?

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Thanks for a marvelously well-wrought reply. I don’t really think it’s a “push back” so much as a purely semantic clarification. I do recognize that our relation to the harrowing, and the (first blind, then more rational) rejection of that reality is one of the main threads in the plot (or at least the part of it that’s internal to the character). Nor did I ever attempt to suggest that it’s physically impossible to get rid of harrowing. Of course it’s possible, just like it’s possible to build a space elevator - is it likely though to see one built before our civilization collapses? I don’t know.

The point that I did make is that harrowing, although not strictly necessary, might always be “needed”. And perhaps the phrasing here suffered from my linguistic ineptitude, I merely meant that it would be prohibitively costly to get rid of harrowing.

I didn’t catch the bit from Havenstone that you quoted here; had I seen it I would recognize my point as defeated before I had made it. If it is indeed possible to flip the off switch on the harrowing tyranny “costlessly”, by way of implementing a blood tax, then I was off by a mile with my interpretation and it is no longer relevant.

This part I would strongly disagree with, however. Of course literature, especially fantasy literature is often hyperbolizing for entertainment purposes, but when we dial the magnitudes down from eleven, then there’s plenty of “harrowing” in our world.

I forgot about the meteors, you’re right it’s probably 100% natural.

That sounds super far-fetched. I’m by no means informed enough to rationalize this point, but if a impractical historical curiosity is a good analogue for a XoR airgun I’m very curious to read how it’s handled in the text.
You either need a very efficient method of storing pressurized gas or some means of efficiently generating pressure, both of which being technologies that could be utilized to greater effect in other ways than making bb guns.

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Depends if you want to democratize warfare and do away with the bloody useless and parasitic warrior caste of the Hegemony to move towards a citizen soldier model. Guns would be a huge advantage to that and they become more efficient if produced at scale.

As far as utilizing them in different ways for the purpose of warfare by ordinary people instead of a warrior caste there isn’t any better way, armour is much more expensive to make and the Hegemony lacks the tech to make primitive tanks, so guns it is.

As I’ve said before their loved ones make valuable hostages in case of the top agricultural theurges in particular.

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I’d compromise by allowing the nobles the opportunity to arrest (but not immediately kill) suspected helot poachers. Only after the suspected poacher is fully proven guilty in a public trial (and after it was proven that the poacher didn’t have the extenuating circumstances of lacking reasonable access to legitimate opportunities for feeding themselves) would the accusing noble be granted permission from the state to execute the defendant. “Extenuating circumstances” poachers would be merely be imprisoned/fed at the state’s expense for a few months (with repeat offenders getting progressively longer sentences), but not necessarily killed.

Much in the same way that an MC can have “public” and “secret” versions of being a Theurge for Game 1 (and beyond when first becoming INT 2 in future games), can there also be a “secret relationship” variation of MC romancing Phaedra? (nominally imprisoning Phaedra at the conclusion of G4, while covertly marrying Phaedra and then waiting for the right opportunity to present her “rehabilitated self” to the public)

Or would the idea be moot, since Phaedra might demand a more public commitment/vow of alliance (and/or fealty) from MC?

Havie, in comparison to @idonotlikeusernames’ envisioned post-Hegemonic scenario, how much territory/state admin capacity could a priest/yeomen/helot supporter base-backed MC reasonably possess? (after having alienated and/or harrowed the non-priestly elites)

The Cabelites are probably already expecting another backstab from Shayard’s aristos in this modern era (MC’s G1-G5 events), but I wonder if the Cabelites are prepared for a different kind of betrayal, one much nearer and dearer to them.

Is there a possibility that these ‘better-off landowning yeomen’ might try cutting a deal with the aristos (e.g. aristo MC and/or aristo NPCs) to (further) enrich/protect themselves at the expense of the Cabelites (and/or poorer yeomen)?

Could be an interesting blind spot to exploit, if the Cabelites are so eager to embrace/trust yeomen class solidarity.

I mean, in retaliation to Phaedra (potentially) betraying her pact with him, INT MC could easily return to the pre-alliance status quo of being the Thaumatarchy’s archenemy, right?

Plus, I imagine that Phaedra becoming an infamous oathbreaker (per the smear campaign spread by disgruntled/betrayed INT MC) will cripple her reputation and ability to rally support for her cause (unless the ability to shamelessly lie as one pleases is one of the expected privileges granted to each Thaumatarch?).

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from what i understand current hegemony faces many crises which will be its downfall and if somehow new faction manages to create new hegemony it will be in worst place than it’s predecessor. its almost impossible to increase every-ones rights on mass scale because inherent cost of operating continent spanning empire witch depends on cooperation of wildly different powers and also repression of its biggest part of population for unstainable blood economy.

Thankfully angel in there boundless wisdom give as information how better hegemony can be achieved. There are two truth new ruler must understand to walk the path set out to us by angels. both are core belief’s of hegemony but sadly misunderstood. new ruler must understand that compassion is weakness and it is main reason for previous hegemony downfall second truth is that salvation will come only through sacrifices.
Armed with new knowledge he will understand what must be done for creation of better world and its quite simple. better world will be achieved by harrowing most of helots(at least 90%, including children) and also big portion of people who took part in uprisings. using these sacrifice he will be able to get never seen quantities of blood and with it end reign of tyrannical hullsral empire and of abhuman coalition, which will archive true peace on continent.
Using these strategy’s these new hegemony will be able to get rid of famines and its dependence on blood economy, will be able to abolish helotry without many social upheavals will drastically decree’s its dependences on blood to run its empire and in time it can painlessly be substituted by another method, it will also decrease difficulty for creating successful democracy because bigger percent of its population will be literate and by shrinking difficulty of having logistic for these kind of government.

only thing necessary for us to achieve these kind of perfect world is to overcome our compassion.

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This movie was fire :fire:

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Eh, to me it was a pretty harrowing experience.

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Good.

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So about the blood tax, I was trying to devise a way to implementing it without draining our people (heh) both through regular and blood tax. Maybe instead of forcing everyone to pay, you may implement blood tax as a supplementary way to pay your regular taxes?
For example, we set the price of a liter of blood on x amount of money and you may aleviate a set amount of your financial burden through blood donations, that way people would be WAY more enthusiastic about the bloodletting, especially if there is support for it from the New Codex or the Eclect, this may also help if you make Theurgy wide-spread, as people would then understand that blood is the new currency that makes the world move.
Do you think it to be feasible or would a much more efficient bureocracy be needed?

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@Havenstone - how is the ecclesiastical hierarchy of the Hegemony organized? I guess that maybe it parallels the civil structure like Zabed parallels the Outer Rim Aristarch and the Archimandrite parallels the Archon? Is it like that through the whole chain?

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Compared to your followers in the greenwood, the Sojourn-folk receive the revelation with less wariness and more weariness. There are far fewer mutters of “blasphemy,” but all
*if cha > 1
your
*if cha <= 1
Breden’s
charisma is barely enough to inspire the exiles to new hope. “The Angels gave up on us when we crossed the Ward, ${sojname},” one of them rasps.

I haven’t played through to test this, but I think this code snippet in chaos2 needs a check to see if Breden is in Sojourn

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i have few questions about Theurgist and how they work from military perspective because they are insanely overpowered.

1)how long is there range where they can use there magic? In what distance can they snap bow strings? create fireballs? deprive person of oxygen? what has longer range snapping of bowstring or firing fireball?

2)there are almost 20 000 military Theurgist in hegemony how much more effective are they compared to those whos primary purposes is more economically relevant Theurgy when they have same blood supply and if they are same level. do military’s know much more deadly manipulations or are they just more effective in using same manipulation?
would one military trained Theurg manage to defeat two who work in different field.

3)from what i understand biggest weakness of Theurgy is that people have some kind of cap of how much ether manipulation they can do and it mostly doesn’t increase after some threshold. for example if person has 10 ether blood phials can they use up it in one second or is there some time which will be needed to use it all up no matter how much they want to? these is very important because if some kind of cap don’t exist 1 higher level person with 100 phials is better then 10 people with 10 each.

4)does Theurg range of manipulation increase as they become better or is it also capped?

5)how much better are higher level Theurg’s compared to lower one’s in battle level 3 compared to first? better then 3, 4, 5 Theurg’s?

6)what is there max and average flying speed’s and how much blood intensive is it?

I also think that 8 years to create death tornado is to low it should be increased to at least 12-15 years and even these is low because if creating WMD is that easy any mass proliferation of Theurgy is setting up world for worst future.

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An important and ambiguous question, the nuances of which Theurges are still debating. Maybe I’ll give the option to test some “weapon” edge cases at the Grand Shayard ward, or at least let you talk to someone who has. Just to stir the pot further: any MC who’d actually used their staff as a weapon was unable to bring it across the Ward. A pacifist MC wouldn’t have had that problem with a pole of equivalent size.

We’re going to see some moot dynamics in Irduin (as you and your bandit envoys are also debating how widely you want to promote moot-like village self-government back in the Rim). But the breakdown there hasn’t yet reached a point where the nobles would be resorting to persecution to reverse moot decisions they don’t like.

That’s what Erjan has delivered to the Sojourn-folk toward the end of G2 Ch 1. The research energies that might have gone into firearms in a world with different laws of magic/physics have in the gameworld gone into pressured-air tech. We’ve been talking about them more on the forums than in the game, however:

Thanks to Theurgy, the gameworld is emphatically not a late-medieval tech world. It is however a world where the Hegemony tightly controls many technologies, such that they don’t generally show up on the fringes where you’ve grown up (and Game 1 took place). There’s no way either Karagon or Halassur would ever widely disseminate pressured-air weaponry to their armies, given the ease with which that tech could be turned against them. Against rebels, in particular, they’d never send air rifles, given the risk of one falling into the wrong hands if a battle goes wrong. Even for rebels with a known lone Goete at their head, they’d send battle Theurges, not air rifles. So a number of the gameworld’s early-industrial tech aspects will only be emerging for the first time in the chapters I’m writing now.

I’ve said elsewhere that this is a Theurgic technique, not a mechanical option open to non-Theurges.

Anywhere there’s sufficient aether, Theurgy is possible.

That’s exactly the kind of sense of tension I want to create throughout the series, as it becomes clearer and clearer just how many of the current world order’s good and/or necessary aspects, as well as its horrors, presently rest on Theurgy. But at the end of the day, I don’t want to paint a world whose message is that the Choice of Rebels is “sacrifice slaves or sacrifice babies,” i.e. choose which evil empire you’re going to build on the ruins of the old. That would reflect a level of cynicism about human depravity that I don’t want to put into my work.

There are no perfect outcomes, but there are substantially better ones to be had. There are, as you say, plenty of Harrowing-equivalents in our world, but there are meaningfully less than there were a century or two ago, and I’m sure there are futures on offer where we have even less than today. I don’t think those futures are remotely inevitable – history is no march of progress – but I do think they’re achievable, i.e. we haven’t attained the best of all possible worlds.

In the gameworld, the switch to a nonlethal blood extraction system will (I expect – we’ll see how the numbers come out) be far from “costless,” including in lives. You won’t be butchering people yourself, it’s true – but you will be allowing people to die that you could save if you just had more blood (to grow more crops, or expand your public health system, or push your conquests into the monstrous neighboring realm next door). And to keep up the state capacity needed to implement a blood tax at reasonable scale, you’d need to forgo punishment of a lot of people who were deeply implicated in the crimes of the old order, and (probably) suppress some of your old friends and allies who refuse to stop killing those noble and priestly administrators.

Theurgy makes both possible, and the air rifles work on the basis of the former (so they can be wielded by non-Theurgic specialists). Let me know what “greater effect” techs you think would naturally follow from this, bearing in mind the reasons noted behind the link above that gunpowder tech never got anywhere besides mining (where we’ll see it used in the forthcoming Ch2).

Off to play music with my kids – will answer more questions later.

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I doubt that any other kind will be remotely possible until Game 5. :slight_smile:

If the priests are the only administrative-experienced class you try to keep on board, it’ll get you further than a merchant-telone combo, but not as far as a coalition that includes the aristocracy.

Sure, but she’d already have whatever research outcomes you’d managed to help her achieve. You can’t put that back in the bottle.

If a disgruntled MC then started trying to broadcast the fact that, “She took my help and betrayed me,” the damage to Phaedra’s reputation would probably be greater from having taken an infamous rebel’s help than from betraying him. The harm to your own reputation among most rebel-supportive factions would be greater on both counts – both working with the Diadoche and trusting her.

This will be a narrative that the MC can pursue… and discover there’s no “perfect” world achievable down a road of maximum brutality either. The idea that you could avoid famine by e.g. outright butchering 50% of your population, if only compassion didn’t get in the way, is the kind of illusory solution that tempts revolutionaries and armchair social engineers into both moral and practical disaster. Even Pol Pot, with a modern tech toolkit on his side and nothing resembling compassion holding him back, didn’t get within shouting distance of that figure before his country started to collapse around him.

“Regular taxes” are the challenge here. As in most premodern and early modern states (and many less-developed states even today), most of the Hegemony’s population is never regularly or systematically taxed. The state raises most of its resources by taxing the trade of goods across borders, monopolies or excise taxes on the production of some high-value goods, and irregular taxes that mostly hit conspicuously propertied people like landowners and guilds. The Hegemony has recently been trying to increase its fiscal capacity through deployment of a dedicated branch of the state, the telones, but their focus is on turning the irregular taxation of propertied subjects into regular taxation – the idea of extending their role to taxing everybody would still be in the realm of speculative fiction in the Thaumatarchy.

A nonlethal blood tax sufficient to achieve a minimum of desirable Theurgic goals can only be achieved by significantly expanding your tax base and roping in millions of people who have never been regularly taxed before. Allowing your existing, relatively small tax base to get a write-off from the Telones for complying with the blood tax might somewhat reduce its unpopularity – but only slightly. It’s still going to be a hugely humiliating and frightening prospect for the generations who associate it with helot sacrifice.

If you spread the knowledge of Theurgy widely, I don’t think a blood tax at any but the smallest scale would be feasible. You’ll have massively boosted the potential for anti-tax revolt, while also giving people the sense that they can do most of what they need to themselves, so why should they give blood to you rather than keeping whatever they collect for local use? Maybe at that point local monopoly access to quicksilver and the other aetherial blood ingredients could become a leverage point for state formation, but on the whole I think a world where the secret of Theurgy is fully out of the bag is one that will be going through social convulsions and fragmentation for a very long time; it’s not a great context for a major leap forward in state capacity.

Similarly to the civil structure, yes – but with rather more formal levels and detail. The priest in charge of the Outer Rim would normally be selected by the Ecclesiastical Eparch of Rimmersford, but in the Olynna prologue the aristarch used his connections to the Archimandrite in Grand Shayard to shortcut that process and get a hardliner directly appointed.

Thanks, @Kevrj, for the bug catch. That’ll be fixed in the next version.

I’m not going to give precise answers to questions of Theurgic range, because it varies significantly by individual Theurge based on their level of insight, understanding, and experience. Seasoned military Theurges are much more combat-effective than Theurges who haven’t had their training and experience – but Theurgic combat is also extremely high-risk, with even the most experienced Theurges capable of being taken out quickly by surprise, so neither Hegemony nor Halassur have built up a huge body of super-Theurges.

The amount of aether you burn is proportionate to the Change you’re trying to make, so there’s also no fixed “cap” of phials per second. If you have a super-concentrated phial equivalent to 100 normal phials and you’re just levitating yourself, you’re going to waste a lot of that aether as it vanishes faster than you use it; but if you’re trying to move a mountain, you’ll burn through all that aether in a second and want more.

As for flying:

and Theurges tend to burn around 1 phial per minute in the air.

The process that generates enormous Xaos-storms isn’t one I’ll be explaining in detail until G4, but it’s not one that could be done simply with 8 years of training and a cut of the hand – nor is it one that I think will be militarily very useful. Small tactical Storms can still be horrible, especially in packed urban settings, but the damage they do is I think comparable to what a home-brew terrorist can cook up in our world. A bit more intensive research may also uncover ways to make them more mitigable than the big ones, with measures short of Great Wards.

Ultimately there are reasons the Hegemony isn’t already using Xaos-storms as weapons of conquest… and I’m not sure the destabilization of a world where everyone knows how to set people on fire using their brains will be markedly increased by the fact that people who put in 8 years of study can also hit a platoon with random, usually devastating effects that can easily backfire on the attacker.

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That’s interesting. Early industrial age could be indistinguishable from medieval in rural/under-developed areas. And it would be consistent with MC’s POV - a helot (perhaps even a noble) from Rim would not experience the technological reality of the more advanced locations. I can’t wait to see how you’re going to introduce it.

That’s probably the optimal choice. Theurgically wrought pressurised gas containers are both the most believable and the most fitting for the setting (in my personal opinion). The other option I couldn’t really get behind. An air rifle that requires 10 000 strokes to give 30 shots, how would that look: “Amid battle Zvad shouts ‘I’m out of ammo’, then takes cover and starts stroking furiously”.

I’m not an engineer but just off the top of my head: actuators, hydraulic (or rather pneumatic) press, pneumatic engines (wouldn’t be very efficient I don’t think), ‘explosives’ (fill a pressurised canister with harmful agent: caustic, flammable, dealer’s choice; rig it to explode, spray a bunch of enemy combatants with it), siege weaponry could probably work better with pneumatic tech, I’m not sure how much range could you get from a vehicle using pneumatic engine but that could also be an option. It also raises a question whether a steam engine could be a thing in XoRiverse.

The blood tax thing, I can’t really conceptualise my view on it at the moment. Just that in the text we’re often presented with the premise that it’s either harrowing or xaosstorms and there’s no third option. I recognise that the third option (blood tax) might come in later and that it might be the difficult “right thing to do”. It feels a bit magical though. I loved the metaphorical dimension of harrowing/theurgy as much as the literal dimension. There’s insurmountable problems in the world that become pretty effing surmountable when you’re ok with drowning them in blood. Throwing human suffering at an issue is an end all be all solution. It’s a little bit underwhelming if the “good” option is to do the bad thing but more sparingly than your predecessors. I was hoping that the ultimate challenge would be to do away with the shortcuts and industrial scale theurgy. Dealing with all the theurgy-solvable problems the hard way - with non-theurgic approaches, combined effort of theurges working off their own blood + aetherial blood they make for themselves, or a combination of both.

If there’s an active volcanoe above your settlement, a theurgic way of dealing with that in real world would be use forced labour and sacrifice thousands of life’s to build a wall that routes lava around your settlement. Non-theurgic way would be to settle elsewhere. Karagond-like imperialism can make the first option seem reasonable and the second option invisible.

Edit: sorry, I’m all over the place. The perils of phone typing before your first coffee.

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Hmm…honestly, I think none of my six “canon” builds are optimists on this matter.

Savage Warrior and Cunning Goete just want to burn everything down, Harrowers and otherwise. I imagine a world where theurge-warlords lead small statelets against each other for centuries is perfectly fine by them, so long as the aristocracy and priesthood are dead.

Their counterparts on the Aristocrat side of things (Noble Knight and Clever Theurge, respectively) actually would prefer a kinder, gentler world in which the worst and most unsustainable parts of Harrowing are mitigated. However, they will not brook any threat to the status of the aristocracy, and if that means the Harrowing of a slave class has to continue, then it will continue.

Radical Idealist despises Helots and is of course fine with slave Harrowing on its current scale, the only issue is that the Shayardene aristocracy is not running the Harrowers.

The Pacifist Prophet is perhaps the most interesting case. Ledd and I only did this build as a challenge to see if a flawless (all lieutenants alive with a successful Ch4 ending) Pacifist run is possible (it is), I actually don’t think a pacifist movement would be tenable in XoR-World. Regardless, this build definitely does want an end to Harrowing, I’m just not sure if it will get anywhere on that front.

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They send exactly that which one does not want and has only an at best dubious use for, truly like modern humanitarian aid then. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
In any case at this point Hallassur is still firmly backing the Laconniers anyway. A reset of relations with them would only be a thing for my mc if he goes for the Western option and once he holds some actual cards…like being one of the group of half a dozen people who could give them ward tech in exchange for them promising no slavery and cutting the Laconniers loose in order to prove my mc does not nor does he want to lead some version of the Hegemony.

Hoping the merchants and the people who actually craft and produce the things can help my mc set up an own industry in them because he would be very much interested in their potential to move warfare away from the professional and parasitic warrior castes and into the hands of the people even if that potentially, along with a reliance on the merchants, means he can be a bit less authoritarian and proto-socialist than he may want to be and has to make some actual concessions to some form of federalism and capitalism.

Unlike in the modern US if my mc had to make that particular concession he would still very heavily condition a right to bear arms on membership in a “well-regulated militia”, more Swiss than US in nature, I would wager.

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I think that these game world even in best case scenario almost always will have worst outcomes for most people in sufficiently long run. These game world doesn’t run on same logic as ours when we are talking about human death’s. In our world for most cases genocide of population has very few practical advantages (there are exceptions when it can be and has been effective policy) almost in all cases it was always better to subjugate existing population then to exterminate them and doubly so when you are thinking about killing big chunk of your population.in game world these difference isn’t so obvious become humans are walking fuel sources these greatly changes what is and isn’t logical to do. It’s like for every civilian you kill you get 10 barrels of fuel and for every child “congratulation you get newest fighter jet”.i also think that world war 2 would have gone very differently if Germany found ways to secure there fuel need from “other sources”.

I understand from thematic standpoint why our mc should not achieve “good ending” by these means and i also think that it most likely he would have failed by same game world logic but chances of these working in game world is astronomically higher then in real one because they run on different logic.

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Not exactly there is still the quicksilver trap that, particularly if going for the western option, is a real constraint and why my mc, once he better understands that particular trap in-game is going to go for maximum self-sacrifice magic, since that does not need quicksilver and for self-sacrifice magic you need enough (INT2 equivalent) people alive and probably stimulate education a lot so a lot more people can reach that level.

2 Likes