Choice of Rebels: Stormwright (XoR2 WIP)

Choice of Games games CoG Works In Progress
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I really hope that phrase ends up being a potential title of an aristo-MC specific G5 end state achievement!
*With ‘hope’ being defined as a heroic figure who has left behind a positive legacy that’s as betrayal/war-crime free as possible?

By the way, what is the Karagond culture stance on adult couples who are separated by a considerable age gap? (e.g. MC and Cerlota)
As long as both “other half” partners are consenting adults, is age gap negligible? (in the eyes of the Karagonds)

Oh dear. Then in retrospect, aristo MC must have had a very thick skin (and LOTS of unconditional love towards ‘cousin Calea’) for them to still be able to click “gratitude/fondness/giving the benefit of doubt” dialogue options such as “Trust Calea to find a way.”

@Havenstone
Could male helot MC’s ‘fling with Calea’ subplot be pursued/interpreted as a cold-blooded revenge plan? (with a potential “you’re about to die” one-liner being, “This one’s for Dann, you evil witch/seductress!”)

And to make things more interesting, maybe there could be multiple opportunities for MC to act upon said revenge:
1- Game 2 at Grand Shayard (if MC wanted to strike down Calea ASAP),
2- Games 3-5 (if MC wanted to delay his revenge in order to squeeze as much intel/usefulness out of Calea before eventually (and covertly) killing her)

If the XoR cast were assigned roles from Clue, then Calea would be Mrs. White.
“Men should be like Kleenex, soft, strong and disposable. - Mrs. White, (Clue 1985)”

FYI, got the games (Question Arcs, Answer Arcs) on Steam sale discount back in Apr 2020, but haven’t yet found the time/urgency to play them yet (amidst my other hobbies). Thanks for advocating the games’ strong selling points; I’ll see what I can do to rearrange my schedule! (if time/opportunities permit)

Yay, nepotism! (and again, thanks for the clarification!)

Well, who’s to say that MC was Sarcifer’s only potential recruitment candidate? Maybe there’s an entire spread of prospective “Sarcifer Project” candidates out there who are taking up Sarcifer’s time? (and INT MC isn’t classified as noteworthy/urgent until they achieve a victory (of some sort) in Game 1)

A claim/hypothesis which happens to be at odds with Havie’s May 2020 statement: “For rather different reasons, Sarcifer himself will prefer using you to usurping you. Unless and until you manage to build a revolt on a scale that actually threatens to overtake his own. :slight_smile:”

Sarcifer may “letter of the law” talk a big game about weakening the institutional power of Theurges, but his potential plan to be a shadow dictator Theurge (who uses MC as his puppet/pawn) violates the “spirit of the law” (FYI, ‘law’ being Sarcifer’s alleged principles, for the context of this argument).

Thanks for the memory jog, and Crimson Rams would totally be an awesome faction name! :smiley:

Noted. I will take that into consideration going forward!

Conversely, if MC deliberately pursued a low-anarchy path (e.g. the Archon is co-opted, and Shayard remains as chaos-free as possible), tried to recruit the aristos to his cause, and then (later) pushed for meritocratic reforms that redistributed land (and power) from the aristos to the lower orders, then the Keriatou might be an obvious rallying point for Outer Rim aristos who wish to rebel against MC (in order to keep their aristo privileges/lands), right?

Yeah, that was the most surprising aspect of Pon Para Game 2. Who could have possibly foreseen/imagined that Urmish, out of all the characters, could…

1- Exploit Hyras’ inevitable death to transform the Sea Kingdom into his own personal fiefdom/theocracy,
2- And then form unexpected alliances with various Stormraiders and the Condors of Patabesh to unleash a conspiracy to “realign the pantheon”?

Water is the element of life/renewal (even more so than air, per my opinion/personal preference), so water was the obvious choice for me.

Very interesting choice of words (for what you would consider a dealbreaker in your alliances with the Homelander factions). :slight_smile:

Perhaps you might strongly find common cause with the Earlunder movement, who have the potential to “withdraw into a narrow Westriding-plus-Rim yeoman nationalism that feels betrayed by and alienated from the coastal elite.”

" ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶R̶e̶p̶u̶b̶l̶i̶c̶ Shayard cannot be fixed, my lady. It is time to start over." - Count Dooku (leader of the ̶S̶e̶p̶a̶r̶a̶t̶i̶s̶t̶ ̶A̶l̶l̶i̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ Earlunder movement)

Or, is your character instead 100% committed to have all Shayardenes hold to a broader Shayardene identity?

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I wouldn’t say 100%, just that it’d be nice. But if a broader Shayardene identity is no longer coherent, then it’s better to cut losses. Good fences make good neighbors, and good neighbors can make good friends, and good friends can rebuild a broad, organic Shayardene identity again. And that identity will incorporate being gamers.

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Or a hope in literal sense that you’ve remade your backward noble house into one of great houses of the realm.

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I’ll follow up separately on the revolution and violence conversation, but here are some responses to questions about the game that have come in since last week.

Ha! :slight_smile: You can keep the left-field suggestions coming, Michael, don’t worry. Just don’t be hurt when I keep the plot a little closer to the baseline. I also love the Benoit Blanc movies (and Rian Johnson’s work in general, though Brothers Bloom left me cold) but I don’t think I’ll try to shoehorn a murder investigation into XoR.

You could certainly reassure your Erezziano friends and contacts like Cerlota that you plan to backstab the Halassurqs before it comes to an actual invasion of their homeland. But you’re right that they might not believe you, given the high stakes and Erezza’s general disinclination to trust; and regardless, they won’t necessarily be “representatives” of the top Erezziano factions that emerge post-downfall, let alone of the whole country. Most of the folk of Erezza will know you by your public rep, not your private reassurances. And you might not be welcomed at the critical battles if you’re a known Halassurq agent, however double you claim to be.

And one not without its real-world parallels. The protracted gunfights that went on around me in Helmand in 2005 and Kandahar in 2009 could have involved guns that Afghan insurgents got from the US in the 1980s.

Defiritely not. :slight_smile: Also no Stormraiders clones in the endgame. Though I’m kinda tempted to let you join the Corsairs and sail off to find the southern continents as one semi-satisfying way of letting the MC walk away from a post-Hegemonic collapse. We’ll see.

I’m always humbled when I see people engaging this closely with my work. Thank you!

You’re totally right, and I’ll find a way to work it in. :slight_smile:

As others have noted, 20 in the gameworld is the threshold of adulthood, neither ripe nor old. :slight_smile: That’s typically the youngest age at which people marry, and there would be strong social sanctions against everyone involved in an underage marriage. Game 1 mentions that Hector, who’s two years older than you, is braced for Lord Stilos to arrange his marriage. We’ll hear more about this in the coming chapters.

While @Ramidel is right that it goes against the culture’s prevailing assumptions, the stigma would be fairly mild unless the noble is a rake who’s remained unmarried to better pursue carnal pleasures. For example, Horion is unmarried and heirless, which fits with his overall reputation as eccentric and not particularly family-minded. His confirmed bachelorhood doesn’t add much to the mild stigma his other eccentricities have drawn down.

In terms of helots marrying and breeding, @Azthyme has as usual brilliantly synthesized the relevant material. :slight_smile:

Calea is about 4 months older than you. Both she and Dann were 17 in early 379 HE when she started taking helot lovers.

And thanks for drawing my attention to the fact that I’d slipped into a confusing use of “came of age” to mean “reached sexual maturity” rather than consistently using it to mean reaching socially recognized adulthood. There are a few places in the code where I do the same with the MC, not just Calea. I’ll fix those in the next G1 update.

Good question! As in any society, even ones that try to draw a hard age line between child and adult, the distinction gets fuzzy when you push on it in different areas. In general, once you’re past 15 you’re in the range where if you’re chosen for Harrowing, it’ll not be considered child-killing. The Angels are known to often pick victims who are disrupters of society, and the capacity of 16-19 year olds for the biggest disruptions (sex and violence) is well-known, so the occasional teen victim isn’t going to seem outrageous. 20 is the age when you’re considered to have the full ability to control yourself, and thus to start a family of your own; that’s the primary signifier of adulthood.

As noted by @Azthyme, if there’s an actual Harrowing offense involved, there’s no minimum age threshold, and the Theurges get to soothe their consciences while getting an aether boost. Non-Theurges, unaware of any upside, may find their consciences harder to soothe, as suggested by that episode from G1 Ch4.

Dude, I’m right here.

Lol. Another tweak for the next update.

Isn’t she lovely?

Bingo.

My code illegibility is mostly unintentional (spare a kind thought for my CoG editor), but it does have the bonus that when I do want to hide some dynamic in the code, it’s easier to evade discovery. Until the most masochistic fans dig it up anyway. :slight_smile:

Not particularly bothered.

Maybe!

You’re assuming here that Sarcifer “using” you is equivalent to him planning to rule from behind the scenes. But all that “using” implies is that he has a goal which he’ll pursue through you… not that his own long-term rulership is that goal.

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Don’t worry, when you prove me wrong and Book 5 comes out, I’ll switch to saying Book 6 will never see the light of day.

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Probably a dumb question, but how would you open this wip or, say, a published game you bought, on either IDE?

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What sort of ‘gamers’ are you referring to here- metagamers?
I’d like more context/clarification, please.

#1- @Havenstone, if MC adopts the de Syrnon name (after successfully becoming the One True King/Queen claimant), can their original aristo surname be incorporated as MC’s middle name? (or will the Laconniers instead insist that the old aristo surname be completely tossed aside to fully commit to the de Syrnon identity)

#2- Was Shayard’s nobility hierarchy ever split between dukes, marquesses, earls, viscounts, and barons? (prior to the Karagond Conquest)
(Or was it just simplified to all aristos being known as a noble or aristo?)
And on a separate, but related note, the possible “Duke/Duchess of Earlund” title has a rather fancy ring to it, right?

Interesting. Could you elaborate how/why that movie left you cold?

Which makes Cerlota quite the interesting oddball/outlier, when she’s rather quick to…
1- Near immediately ask for an alliance with an upstart, anti-Hegemony rebel (Instead of first inquiring about MC’s true intentions)
2- Share the dark truths/secrets about Theurgy with a rebel (whose vision may end up clashing with her vision in the long run)
3- And volunteer her services as MC’s advisor, thus taking a gamble on MC’s leadership (rather than try to replace MC as the leader of MC’s rebellion)

I suppose actions really do speak louder than words.

Then how about this for a possible compromise: Instead of waiting to reveal his hidden pro-Erezza preference until the very last minute (G5 Erezza border defense), what if MC earlier showed his true colors during G4? (by thwarting Halassur’s invasion of Nyryal, thus demonstrating that koinon-aspiring MC is willing and capable of protecting the soon-to-be-ex-Hegemony provinces from Halassur’s greedy paws)

Would the above suggestion be enough of a “credibility restorer” for my double agent MC to finally receive a (reasonably) warm welcome at the Erezzan border’s critical battles?
(Or would MC’s “show true colors” moment instead need to be triggered even earlier, e.g. G2-G3, to achieve the desired outcome?)

Holy crap, there are southern continents that haven’t been explored yet?
You could make a spinoff game out of that idea!

As long as both Sarcifer and MC can get what they want (and as long as Sarcifer’s goals aren’t too inhumane for MC’s conscience to bear), then I suppose an alliance with this ancient Theurge might not be the Faustian bargain that MC initially imagined.

From what I understand, de Firiac is an interesting antihero, because they simultaneously have a privileged upbringing/worldview (e.g. “nobles should keep the rights to kill poachers and maintain dominance over the yeomen”) and an unyielding desire to be a champion of honor and compassion.

How much effort will it take for “class traitor” aristo MC to convince de Firiac that MC’s envisioned class reforms (e.g. breaking up/redistributing the noble estates) are the best way to make peace with the lower orders, thus fulfilling “what it truly means to be a noble worthy of their name?”

I have a hunch that 3 CHA (or more) Eclect Aristo MC might be able to achieve this above plan (since an Inner Voice-empowered Simon might cling to his privileged upbringing); your thoughts?

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It’s not actually your coding, it’s just a highly complex game with a lot of moving parts. G1 was good practice for debugging Revolution Diabolique, for example. (Which isn’t a knock on Chris either - that game has to track dynamic political ideologies.)

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I’m definitely not a coding expert, but …

Based on the relatively low number of continuity and coding errors I’ve found in five playthroughs of this chapter, I have to say … no matter how hairy it looks, the workings are pure elegance in practice.

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The mating part is only true for helots, for other castes and classes the other half can be same sex. For the others adoption is a perfectly viable way to continue their lineage and in the cases of nobles their dynasty.
I think even prince nippletwister is adopted.

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He is. That’s not a fake-out. Kleitos has no kids.

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Mating (not reproducing, just having sex) is part of the expectation once you find your other half, unless I misread the creation myth. This isn’t a system where sex isn’t part of the deal for same-sex couples.

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It’s true that both the myth and the wider society value (chaste) sex as “natural” – but I don’t want to overstate the implications for marginalization of asexual people. The culture would see continued abstaining from sex as a relatively minor form of dissident behavior, as long as both parties were content and an heir was adopted as needed. People who want “too much” sex, rather than “too little,” are the ones really framed as a problem within the Hegemony’s discourse.

Your overall point about the Hegemony being pro-mating rather than pro-breeding is right. Halassur is the latter. The Hegemony in part self-defines itself in opposition to that – which is another reason why ace people wouldn’t be condemned. They’d be perceived as “erring on the right side,” as it were.

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Purely out of religious devotion, Alya needs to remind society that finding one’s other half is difficult and it’s natural to explore other people in promise of seeking them, hence legitimizing divorce, premarital sex and even a little unchastity.

cred_coastal +10
cred_rim -20

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That was just a joke, but who knows, maybe this world has a really sick board game.

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So I’m really not seeing a Halassurq invasion of Nyryal in the cards. Geographically, Halassur has to get through all of Erezza first to reach Nyryal by land; meanwhile, at sea, the Thaumatarchy and its nauarchs still hold relative naval supremacy, and even if that could be overcome, they face the Ward, and even if that Ward fell and they could take Umri and maybe even advance inland to Nyrnakan (setting aside the weapon of mass destruction levitating above Nyryal that could be wielded against Halassur if necessary), actually subjugating Nyr would involve bringing to heel any insurgents who are more familiar and better-equipped to fight in the cold terrain.

Erezza is comparatively much more valuable, with its mineral and alchemical resources. Erjan claims that Halassur’s terms are the demolition of the Halassurq Border Ward, the conquest (or reclamation – liberation, even – Halassur would say) of territory as far west as Cocenza (Kochentâ), an end to the war, and ideally a shattering of the united polity of Erezza entirely (or, as they’d say, a restoration of the independent city-states from the tyranny of Karagond and Soretto). Of course, the poison pill within those demands is that they lay the foundation for Halassurq suzerainty over a shattered Erezza, then able to leverage its influence in Shayard, Karagon, and Nyryal. That, of course, is left unsaid. But from that, we see that Erezza, rather than Nyryal, is the lock and key on Halassurq imperialism.

From there, we might argue that it’d be more in Halassur’s interest to try pursue “alliance” and cultural hegemony with Nyryal, rather than conquest – we already see seeds of this in Jevahir and Erjan. Centuries ago, Nyryal and Halassur had a military alliance to fight off Hera the Immortal; Halassur could try to revive that. Not that the Nyrs would necessarily be receptive – I rather dislike accusations of Nyryal being a fifth column, considering how differently Nyrish and Halassurq culture have developed – but if I was Emperor Tevqar, I’d rather coax Nyr to my side than conquer.

And besides, Nyryal honestly seems like the least crucial part of a new hegemony, and well-primed to become its own independent state as the Thaumatarchy collapses (economically too: Umri, at least, is probably tired of their industry and trade just feeding the Karagond military-industrial complex).

De Firiac? Maybe. They can already be manipulated into actual martyrdom, after all, and love is a powerful motivator. But the rest of the aristocracy? I’m skeptical. The first question I would pose is what happens to the nobles who resist. Does your nascent state seize their estates by force? With violence? By letting their crops wither in the fields amidst a famine?

You offer the dissolution of noble estates as a “way to make peace with the lower orders”, but this requires that there exists an absence of peace with the “lower orders” – that there is a genuine threat of violence against the nobility. That’s a lot more like Kal’s argument: “They need to fear us. That’s the only thing that will move Them, the only thing that will make a change: if they’re terrified that we’re going to tear down their whole world around their bloody ears.” Of course, this goes even further than Kal’s argument; it asks the nobility to tear down their whole world themselves.

Meanwhile, the rebellion that de Firiac envisions is not a war against the poor, but rather a united front against the tyranny of the Thaumatarch, and that waging war against the aristocracy drives away those who might otherwise join the cause. That’s what’s so insidious about the “honor” of aristocracy, even though it’s precious and beautiful in their own right. Because their honor is intrinsically tied to the power they possess and their capacity to wield violence. Why is their sword their honor? And yet the evils of the aristocracy are rooted in Their violence and Their power.

That’s not say that the nobility can’t see that evil and reject it. The aristo MC’s mother is one such noble who understood that not only are the helotry people, but that helots and every person in the world deserve compassion. I trust that de Firiac is a good egg – but as their comments on poaching show, even they haven’t reached that belief.

Which brings us to the question of “what it truly means to be a noble worthy of their name” – what it means to be a noble. One might ask, is it not the duty of the nobility to protect the defenseless? To help the helpless? To care for people? Paternalistic noblesse oblige, to keep the aristocracy at the top and the rest below. How is it “honorable” to abandon the people, to willingly cut themselves off from the very power (and privilege) that “allows” them to protect the people and deliver justice?

What you’re asking them to do is to quietly, “honorably” self-terminate as a class; to give up nearly everything that makes them noble. I think there’d be immense resistance to that; some who greedily cling onto their old power and privilege, but also some who might believe They could do more good by wielding that power. I don’t know if there can be a truly clean path to break the power of the aristocracy.

But again, all this is just my read on the situation, biased by my own conflicting views on the authority joined with power to wield violence. It’s not necessarily correct.

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Personally I am very interested in seeing how the question of land ownership will be handled, if at all. I suppose it might depend on how violent the ‘revolution’ is/who it manages to sway to its side. There are millions of helots who even in the theoretical realm of ‘all harrowing is abolished’ (which unfortunately I don’t see as ever being a thing without millions dead) would end up as little better than serfs in the post-Hegemonical order. How long until that leads to rebellion and civil war?

Perhaps a solution would be to redistribute the estates and lands of those who chose loyalty to Karagond. Or some other arrangement might happen, where aristocrats are induced to sell parcels of land to the landless peasantry. In any case, overthrowing the Hegemony by itself invites a whole bunch of problems. It might be a rotten sort, but it provides order. Could its successor state(s) do the same?

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Pretty sure we can.

Or at least, we can make a desert and call it peace.

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Can’t or won’t have kids?
Was Kleitos rendered sterile as a side effect of his past (and still ongoing) experiments with Theurgy, or was his decision to adopt an heir purely done on a whim? (with no external factors preventing him from having any biological kids)

You think this policy might finally be the last straw that gets de Firiac to turn against Alya? (or is “-20” a mere setback that will only elicit a temporary pout from de Firiac)

With regards to his feelings towards Game 2’s “Sojourn alliance” (Sojourn, Nyryal, Seracca, and Halassur), MC is feeling chill/happy with the first three factions (while eager to cut out imperialistic Halassur from the equation).
(though to play devil’s advocate, I’m very curious to find out if my alternate “publicly known Halassurq agent who’s actually loyal towards Erezza” MC will succeed)

Given how Havie phrases things as “you can sell out Nyryal to the Halassurqs”, I imagine that the Nyrs’s pushback/suspicion (towards Halassur) would most likely be very fierce (hence, why I was quick to previously assume that Halassur would invade Nyryal, without having taken into account the geographical/logistical challenges you pointed out recently).

@Ramidel
This here will be MC’s biggest argument (towards Shayard’s elites) concerning why it’s so necessary to continue investing blood and treasure towards Erezza’s ongoing border defense: a balance of power that has Erezza as a grateful partner, buffer state, and mineral/alchemical supplier (in MC’s koinon) will be a far more preferable arrangement (to having hungry/greedy Halassur directly sitting at Shayard’s doorstep, waiting to conquer Shayard next).

Good point, although on another note, Nyryal will most likely be a necessary ally for any MCs who wish to replace the current Xthonic world order with a Skepticism/Kenon-dominated post-Hegemony superpower.

Let’s just say there’s a very good reason why ‘class traitor’ aristo MC will be mainly interested in recruiting wisard students from the ranks of the merchants, yeomen, and ex-helots (while only training a handful of “white sheep” minority aristos who share de Firiac’s willingness to take a chance on MC’s vision).

MC’s imagined policy will probably be summarized as, “Speak softly, but carry a big (Wisarding) stick.”

Important questions that I intend on having my “arrogant aristo” antihero MC explore, FYI. :thinking:

‘Class traitor’ aristo MC doesn’t necessarily want to leave the soon-to-be-ex-aristos lost/starving on the streets; he’ll remember to set up outplacement services. (and would be inclined to provide warm letters of recommendation for the ex-aristos who cooperate with his agenda)

Yes! And then give the ex-Loyalist lands to MC’s envisioned “nobles of the robe” (elevated merchants, yeomen, and ex-helots)!
(while the feudal aristos who took a chance on MC will get to keep their lands)

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Pout, definitely, especially since I’m not romancing him.

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