Choice of Rebels: Stormwright (XoR2 WIP)

Thinking a lot about the post from awhile ago that mentioned tracking Hector’s sanity (The idea that “Mad King Hector” would be an antagonist to contend with a few books down the line) and it’s made me think a lot about the absolute massacre that was my ambush on his veneurs.

I got info from Calea with support from Elery and Simon so Hector was the only one to make it out of that alive out of like, a dozen? And with what my aristo MC says these are all people they knew from when they were kids.
I think it’d be cool if next time we see/hear about him there was a nod to how uniquely horrific that was for Hector than if there was an engagement on even ground with both sides bleeding.

I’m sure the hambush stat that tracks how well it worked out is a temporary one but it seems like the kind of thing that is like a life-altering experience for Hector while for the MC it’s just a moment of continued survival.

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Dawg, what time period is the game in again?

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It’s closest to early modern in terms of development with some changes due to the existence of Theurgy.

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It’s not set on Earth and probably not our universe since the physics are different too. Eras as we understand them driven by technology changes don’t exactly line up, but as @roodcross indicated the rough similarity is early modern.

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Thank you for the first book. I was in my early teens when I read Choice of Rebels: Uprising, and now I’m training to be a firefighter. The only thing that hasn’t changed thus far is my love for your setting and its characters. I didn’t realise there was a sequel on-going until I searched for information on the book out of nostalgia.

Anyway, is there another link for the demo I could try? The one on the top of the thread doesn’t seem to be working anymore.

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@Havenstone The demo links in the OP are currently both broken btw. The CoGDemos one can be made to work by just trimming it down to CoGDemos, and the Moody one is obviously deprecated.

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Thanks for the heads up! Link fixed…

Welcome, @Catschre , and I hope you like Rebels 2!

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Have you looked into what that “coup” actually looked like? It wouldn’t have started at all without the nonviolent movement (which had been going for weeks before the coup plotters decided they’d try to capitalize on it). The leaders of the coup initially tried to get the support of the protest movement, but when Cardinal Sin and Aquino wouldn’t endorse violence, they went ahead anyway…and failed, and had to hole up in a camp in metro Manila. The only reason the coup leaders survived at all was their appeal for help to the mass nonviolent movement, whose leaders quickly mobilized crowds (notably including lots of priests and nuns) to surround the camp.

Marcos’s troops repeatedly refused to fire on the camp’s nonviolent protectors. Once it became clear that the camp wasn’t going to be overrun, more units started to defect. But even then, the coup was never a “big violent component.” The mutineers did eventually carry out a couple of attacks to e.g. degrade Marcos’s air force, but the air force was by then already powerless to turn the tide.

The coup plotters’ capacity for violence was never necessary in bringing about the fall of the Marcos regime. The same can’t be said for the nonviolent movement, without which the coup would have been snuffed out within a day or two. (It’s worth noing that after Aquino became president, some of the coup plotters tried to depose her – and failed again, repeatedly.)

Violent resistance had already failed repeatedly in the Philippines; the Communist and MILF (no, these ones) attempts in the 1960s and '70s only led to martial law and the consolidation of Marcos’s power. Overall, if you want arguments for the necessity of violence in regime change, you should definitely be looking elsewhere.

The comparative evidence suggests that it’s a pretty huge advantage in practice. And I don’t think these should be our canonical examples, @Ramidel:

Malcolm X talked a lot about violence, but was not in actual practice a violent revolutionary (and was moving even further from that when he was murdered, as @comradelenin notes). And when it comes to Bose, I think that even if he’d survived the war, his influence would have been eclipsed by Gandhi and Nehru because he was so much less effective, not just because he used violence (or because he collaborated with the Axis).

This does indeed beg the question, in the strict sense of the idiom. :slight_smile: Strong pacifism is never (as far as I know) a consequentialist ethical stance i.e. one that justifies itself in terms of RESULTS. If you’re already convinced of consequentialism, you’re pretty much guaranteed to be unconvinced by ethical pacifism (though as discussed above you’d often still be well advised to adopt nonviolent resistance on a tactical basis). But hard pacifism can be entirely consistent with other ethical stances, e.g. one primarily oriented toward duties, or virtues, or divine commands.

(NB: Having finally re-read Alasdair MacIntyre’s After Virtue for the first time in many years, I’m more attracted than ever to virtue ethics myself. As I’ve written elsewhere, “we’re still miles from an adequate rules- or principles-based account of ethics.” Consequences are one factor in moral judgment, but our grasp of them is much too unreliable for them to be the cornerstone.)

Like I said upthread, I join you in being dubious that a social order entirely free of violence is achievable. But even if that’s right, and at some point the nonviolent revolutionaries have to either take up the police power or defer to someone who will, that point can be well after an oppressive regime has collapsed through entirely or primarily nonviolent tactics.

And if you’re not an ethical pacifist, then there’s a simple answer to:

“Because it was the most effective tactic for rebelling, and isn’t the most effective tactic for maintaining social order now that we’re in charge.”

It’s a great point. I don’t know how many of these nice callback ideas I’m going to be able to make canonical and still finish the game…I’m already finding the end of Game 2 to be a lot more work than I’d thought it would be. But I’ll look at that when I revise G1.

And finally, ADAT we were talking about how to pronounce Xthonos.

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I meant the non-consequentialist pacifists.

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To use early American history, non-violent resistance to parliamentary taxation worked pretty well in getting repeals until the Bostonians decided to attack East India company ships and throw tea into the harbor. If the colonists had enough patience to stick with boycotts and things like that instead, we’d probably have ended up with the provinces that became the United States following a path more like Canada.

Boston Tea Party basically resulted in an escalation spiral.

It did. The Crown didn’t appreciate how much it would cost to coerce us. Even if Howe had destroyed the Continental Army, I think the Crown’s policy of wouldn’t have worked long term.

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Worked out pretty well for America.

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Well the one of my mc as it regards the Hegemony will remain that to truly abolish slavery and get to any other reforms worth having, real land reform to start with, the nobles and the priests cannot be allowed to hold onto any meaningful amount of power nor onto the land they claim.

They are not going gently and non-violence, let alone ethical pacifism in the Hegemony have a drawback that with Harrowing a significant part of any non-violent movement’s would be followers especially their lower class ones can be converted from labour to capital. Imagine how much more difficult some of our own revolutions would have been if those in power could have thrown people into a woodchipper and gotten non-trivial amounts of gold or oil out of it while also serving as a horrific deterrent to the rest. Imagine if historical Sparta could have done this?
And that is the horror of the Hegemony we’re dealing with.

So my mc has very good reasons to believe that when you want more than the barest hint of a compromise that is so worthless that it changes effectively nothing, as in slaves to at the very best serfs who will still be harrowed too, the nobles and the priests must have the wealth, land resources and yes power of arms they are holding and hoarding taken away from them so that they will no longer be in a position to object to or worse obstruct desirable and necessary reforms. Otherwise what is the point in even rebelling?

Even pink unicorns like Simon would draw a firm line at anything that even reeked at a hint of land reform I would suspect.

Now does that mean non-violence cannot achieve the overthrow of the Thaumatarchy? I do agree with our author that perhaps it could, but to what end? To get to meaningful reforms through mostly non-violent means would likely take centuries and, given what we’re dealing with, would probably also necessitate planting those seeds of non-violence and reformism not just within a movement but within a religion, whether a new one or an heretical branch of Xthonicism. And then prepare for centuries of persecution before it was in a position to take power, just like Christianity. But by then, also like Christianity, it would not be free from its own corruption or indeed violence I would wager. Yes, turning the other cheek is a part of Jesus teachings but how often has it actually been practiced by the rich and powerful even in Christian dominated societes?

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He was moving further from the notion of black separatism. Never heard anything about him moving away from the idea that violence was acceptable in the defense of African American communities.

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When the protagonist remenbers while talking to Erjan that priests did fundraisers to care for veterans, they should remember that Zebed did it.

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No, and he never lost his sense that King was on the wrong track. But from reading the Haley (auto)biography, it looks like Malcolm was moving away from the conviction that violence was necessary – that it would be the only way to change the Jim Crow US.

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So when are we doing a XOR universe United Nations?

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60 years from now :: snickers ::

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“Oakfell,” Veorn cuts in hoarsely. “Could you heal…this?” He holds out his crab-claw of a hand.

I… :sob:

M’kyar stretches in a way that resembles a shrug. “There is a time for discretion. And there is a time to shock your foes, and remind the men among them that your body does what theirs cannot.”

I cackled and really hope you put this in the book/s @Havenstone. She is by far my favourite new character.

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I’m a couple days late for a pretty great ADAT:

Or ten!

Oh, this is 100% staying in the final version, don’t worry. :slight_smile:

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Yes, but are we gonna be able to pull our trousers down and fling magic spells at the enemies ahahaha :partying_face:

I’m taking that like as confirmation. That is the coolest use of period blood I’ve ever read - on that note, are there any other blood magic stories that do the same thing that anyone can recommend? Because I need it in my life.

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