And just as an aside, it’s so strange to be told I must not want variation and I’m playing the wrong kind of game when what I’ve been saying is yes, I want variation. My entire post was about wanting more variation. Please, someone write a story where I can find some because that’s a major factor in why I’m playing these games in the first place.
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The gender/orientation/appearance doesn’t have to be meaningful beyond giving people a character they can invest in. I, for instance, gain far greater enjoyment from games where I can create my own character over games with fixed characters. Most of the games under the CoG and HG brands fall under this umbrella I think.
There are some where any combination of gender/orientation/appearance matter but I don’t recall names off the top of my head there are also some wips where these things affect more than player investment.
Also, if you find being told you’re looking at the wrong genre “strange” how do you think you make those of us who actually enjoy character creation whether or not it is meaningful beyond letting us create a character feel being told our preferences and enjoyment don’t matter?
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In Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven, those types of decisions have minor impacts in situational scenes. As an example, while shopping at the store, having body piercings will give you an additional discount as will having the right kind of job.
If games were to have major impacts occur because of customization of this nature, the balancing and work involved in creating these games would increase exponentially.
In that same game, Zombie Exodus: Safe Haven, choosing a nephew as a liability option is proving to be a very popular fan favorite. This choice adds additional dilemmas and dangers to encounters - both social and conflict encounters.
The trouble with having even this much impact on the game is that having a nephew almost becomes mandatory to experiencing some content and this excludes part of the audience. Which means that @JimD must be very careful in what extras are given or having a nephew becomes an unofficial must-choose option to experience the optimal content in the story.
Having such shattered experience doesn’t add replay to most people because quite frankly most people do not care to roleplay such extremes to experience “just another optional path” as you advocate. It would be a waste of development time and effort to put so much writing and mechanics into something only a fraction of your audience will see or that threatens to imbalance the game as to cause what you say is your biggest gripe - making one way the game the most efficient and “best” route.
1st - there are games with more non-mutable characters then others:The Samurai series, the Infinity series, and Lords of Aserwik are three better known titles but Somme Trench is about being a WW1 soldier and the PC is more rigid then most -its a great game but some in the IF marketplace will be excluded from your pottential buyers because of that rigidity. That is just the way the business reality is.
If you really think there is a need for the type of significant impact resulting from character customization, then perhaps you can develop the game that shows the rest of us how to do it. Just like most every other business sector in the world, CS market place is a copy-cat community. We will do what proves to work for other authors. That is the wat sport leagues are, that is the way industry is and that is the way IF-gaming is too.
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Ah ok, see what you’re looking for now. The problem is what you’re asking for ISN’T simple. You’re basically asking for 2 completely different stories. One where you’re female and are struggling to become a paladin although it’s not usually alowed. And one where you’re male and everything is fine and dandy because it’s expected. So what you’d probably want to look for if you want that level of difference between genders is genderlocked stories. There are a few on the site although at the moment they’re all male and in Hosted games (like the Lords of Aswick and Study in steampunk). But yes, in those, you’ll find a difference.
The ones written with a flippable MC are usually done that way because the genders are considered to be on equal footing or the entire world get’s flipped over to reflect the heirachy (like in broadsides and choice of romance). Often that is completely appropriate, I mean if it’s set in present day, no one’s going to tell me I must stay home and cook and clean for the menfolk all day, while the men must go off to war. The differences can be more subtle. The same with “made up” worlds where you can make things as you want. For example in one of my WIP’s Abysm’s veil, I ask for gender mainly to set the pronouns. You don’t realise how often you use pronouns until you start trying to write without them. I don’t want to lock it to a particular gender as it can work for either so I ask and set the pronouns. There is a bit of flavour text here and there (as males are rarer in this particular senario) but it doesn’t penalise you for being male in the same way that your story would “penalise” you for being female and wanting a particular job.
Alright anyway, I think you should write your story about the paladin. If there is a good reason why something is gender locked, it can really add to the story. If there isn’t, that’s when people really question it (for example you’re playing the CEO of a company in modern day USA, why do you need to be a straight white male?) and that’s why gender is selectable for most games. If you’re planing to write for the official label they have to have a selectable gender but not for HG. So look at it this way. If you’re a writer for a living and you need to write a story would you make two different stories that most people will only read one of (because they’re male or female) or would you write one that can be adjusted for both and get paid the same. If you need to pay your rent, you’re going to go with the latter. And TBH for most games it’s no big deal, it works fine.
Edit: There are many gender locked RO’s and some that are orientation locked as well in COG’s. If you’re looking for specific ones I’m sure someone can tell you.
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To keep the tone collaborative, I think that @Moxie and @LordOfLA both want things that can co-exist. It’s good to create characters that the player can invest in–totally. And it’s good to have those choices create neat branching. In an ideal world, most every choice would lead to lots of branching narrative.
But, time and energy being what it is, one cannot always have a game that radically branches for choices of gender or orientation, or race. That may be a failing in this human endeavor of ours, but that’s just the way it is. But in the absence of that branching, it’s still a good thing to have the choice so that the imaginative work can happen in people’s minds–so that their protagonist can be more fully imagined.
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Hi, well, I understand what is being said here that some choices, particularly character creation appearance choices are meaningless, but for some people it isn’t.
By having the option to pick hair color for example, the player can be sure that the hair color he wants for that character is what he wants it to be. If you have it not set, some may have a harder time imagining it so (like me). It’s all a part of immersion in the character you want to play as. Sometimes it doesn’t really have to have a reference in the game at all, for example look at most games with 3d graphics and character creation, your appearance in those are usually very irrelevant, but it’s just a way for the player to identify more with the character he wishes to create.
Some even go further, for example in fallout 3, fallout 4 and the sims, the apperance of the parents can affect the apperance of the children, but it makes no difference besides that, yet it’s a feature that a lot of players enjoy when having character creation, as well as other things like body shape, it has no effect in the gameplay or story, but it allows the player to better finetune and create the character he has in his mind.
In text games it’s maybe more meaningless because you can’t see it all the time, it’s like a variable that just gets set and thats it, but for some things that’s fine. If I have brown hair and go to another country is that something they should bother with? Not everything needs to be referenced at some point or change the story in major ways.
A good way to aknowledge the creation is having these mini references at some points in the story, for the example given before, if you have piercings someone may comment on it, as some people care about it, some don’t, sometimes just having this minor aknowledgement can help immersion for the player.
I’m for example am making a WIP for a game that has several character creation options, such as nationality, religion, race, transgender option, and different languages. I set several default countries and added an option for the player to add their own, including what languages they speak. Not all languages will be used in the game, because such a thing would be impossible, but some will, and may reveal additional information or other things. Other languages might not be used at all in game but will still be listed in the profile of the player. Some might ask why because there would be no point? Well for me the point would be of immersion, that is you at least, you know that language, but the game may never go into a country that speaks that, but there’s no need to, but your character speaks it. At the very least, some of the more “meaningless” choices I set as optional, such as hair color, eye color etc.
A complete different story based on these is difficult, but I do want to have those pop up in a few moments, like for example a mission where the KKK is involved, the player, if caucasian and not of mixed race, might try an option to pretend to be a KKK member to infiltrate them and kill the leader easier. Such an option would not be possible if the player is of another race or mixed race, those would have to seek another way.
For some settings, like games set in fantasy worlds, usually the author can make it so that these are non-issues for that world, so there’s even no point going in with such expectations for treatments based on things like gender to be different. For games which are set in the real world, I think it would be more viable to expect such things depending on the era. Sometimes having such aknowledgments, even if in a negative manner, can help better immersion in the world if that’s what it’s supposed to be like.
But sometimes it’s also a lot of work the more options you add, so I’d rather have them even if not being used, because at least for immersion it can help. What’s bad about selecting them anyway? Just 3 additional clicks?
The religion options I added are sometimes just different ways for the players to express themselves regarding particular situations. I have no knowledge in Islam for example, so I asked for an Indonesian friend what to say in a particular moment of the game and he really liked the idea. He said as a Muslim that having such options helped immersion for him greatly for just being able to say something at a particular point.
Take one of the missions for example, where the target is a televangelist. Christians characters have exclusive options to pick to express themselves. It may not change the whole mission, but at least it’s another perspective.
The cool thing in character creation is that some people like to just create themselves in the game, others like to play as someone completely different (roleplay) even if this character has different ideals or background than the player themselves. For example, I set North Korea as a selectable nationality in my game, even though I don’t expect any North Korean to ever play the game, nor do I expect someone from Tanzania or India to do so, but I added them all, maybe someone from Italy just wants to make his character from one of those countries instead. In the extreme case of North Korea, I even added exclusive background options to cover things like escape and such, just so the player can have a more immersive story. I know that some people don’t even care about that, but I do, and so I want to make it possible.
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If there is any decent gay smut on it please mail me the adult only links too, provided you still have them of course.
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In other words authors are being forced to spend development time on gender and romantic permutations or their stories will suffer in terms of reviews at the hands of the audience? That seems rather discriminatory of the readers.
So if my setting is a historically accurate setting, should certain options simply be forced into the story whether or not they seem to fit that setting? According to the ‘official’ requirements for submission the answer is yes. A game set during a historically accurate (as possible) WWII must have the same options as a game set in a fantasy/science fiction setting or the story will be rejected.
Should a homosexual protagonist in a historical medieval setting be expected to produce an heir to the throne, knowing that chaos and civil war could result without a clear line of succession (to throw out an example of a possible scenario)?
I’m curious, which branching games do not lead to the same ending? How many authors create completely different endings and not just minor variations on the same path?
Actually after attempting several of the ‘official’ games that is not much of an exaggeration. A chapter spent creating a character (often with attributes that are poorly explained), a chapter giving the reader an exposition dump regarding the setting and the protagonist’s place in it, and a requirement of payment to continue seems to be a rather standard development.
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Hey that’s the nature of writing for an audience. If the readers have a preference, you can choose if you wish to meet those or not, but everyone is free to leave a review.
As long as it’s not discrimatory/hate speech, you can definitely make a story to be published under HG with the things you’re talking about including genderlocking if you wish. In fact there are some world war stories on the site if you wish to look that fit what you say “would be rejected”. If you want to write for COG, that’s still fine but the amount of work for the author to write several different stories of which only one is likely to be read (see comment above) will get exponentially larger. COG is a brand that tends to publish for established authors. They need to use their time wisely in order to make enough money for things like food and electricity. So why wouldn’t they prioritise their time with settings that can be adjusted for either gender, orientation or race? Besides, not everyone wants to read a real life story where they’re being descriminated against. If I’m going to be a female warrior, I really don’t want every second person I speak to refusing to have anything to do with me and trying to send me home. Sometimes I just want to play the story.
I’m curious, which branching games do not lead to the same ending? How many authors create completely different endings and not just minor variations on the same path?
Mine for starters- Wizardry level C. It has several very different endings although I believe some of them can be difficult to find.
My day off is also very branchy I believe.
Iron destinies is relatively linear after the beginining but has several completely different story lines.
From memory Life of a Wizard branched as well although I haven’t read it in some time, but I do remember it having high replayability
Metahuman has a number of different ways to resolve the ending scene as do many others (they’re in the category of semi-linear as they branch towards the ending)
Anyway that’s a few from the top of my head, there’s probably others. So why are the very branched ones in the minority? Because it cuts the play through length down. It also means to add to the story becomes exponentially harder as the branches are going off in all directions and the word count becomes very high. As an example, mine has a playthrough length that I think ranged from about 9,000-25,000 words with the average somewhere in the teens. This is considered “short” for a game even though the total was up above 100,000 words and the reviews reflect that. People often read it once and then leave a poor review. You gotta understand, this is writing for an audience, not just for myself, so you’ve got to take this into account.
Well we can agree to disagree on that one. I’ve usually got a pretty good idea as to whether a story is going to interest me by the end of a demo. And you do know that the reason why they’re in app purchases is to let people have a demo right? Otherwise you’d have nothing but the blurb to judge it by. In places where demos are actually allowed, (such as steam) they do have demos available.
Anyhow, it seems as if you’re here just to argue. What do you suggest if you have something constructive to add?
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I have found that out of a lot of apps/games I buy on the AppStore, CoG games or hosted games are the most most frequent. I’ve tried nearly all from either category. Why? Because they are just that good. And for like around $5? Sign me up. There’s just so much freedom and variety in these games. I even have a category on iPhone where I keep all CoG/hosted games separate from everything else. These games imo are just rpgs without graphics or sound. It’s like I’m reading a book, which I love to do, but I can decide how the book goes. If $5 or more keeps these games coming? I’m all for it. Realistically speaking, you can’t expect the author to put these out and not get some form of competition. They put their time and effort into these games and I for one feel they should be rewarded, critiqued if needed and supported to continue the work the authors do. Anyways this is just my opinion. Feel free to ignore it if you don’t feel the same.
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Choice of Robots, famously. Four completely different final chapters–which at the time it was published was widely seen as a crazily excessive way to write a CoG. Of course, it was also so beloved that it became CoG’s most successful game, and eventually affected the official guidelines on how to end a CoG.
At the same time, Heroes Rise remains CoG’s most successful series, showing that there’s an avid audience for exactly what you don’t enjoy–a game consisting of variations on a single core plot. (Though Game 3 did vary the final outcomes somewhat.) I don’t blame authors for writing for that audience, especially if they’re not amateurs slowly grinding out labors of love but pros who need to put food on the table. It’s a lot easier than writing massively branching games, and most CoG readers are happy with it.
Choice of Rebels Game I really has only one ending, because I’m writing for an intended five-book series and I need to start off all Rebels MCs in the same place in Game II… but I can promise that Game V will have massively branched endings. (Though you’ll have to take my word for it for a decade or two.)
Yes, that’s true. It’s one of the distinctive things about CoG–that you’ll never be locked into a single canon gender/romance permutation–and a majority of the audience welcomes it. Different game companies have different brands, and authors/developers will need to devote some time into core elements of the brand. Like it or not (and I get that you don’t like it), this is core to CoG’s brand.
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I think while many people would love to have a truly branching story, each branch would cause the story and development to grow exponentially and become unrealistic incredibly quickly.
I’m happy to settle for semi-linear - so start, middle, end but with different ways to get from start to middle and from middle to end. It could even be the same end and just have an epilogue to wrap up choices along the way, sort of “as a result of choice X, blah thing(s) happened” - kind of like Neverwinter nights Underdark expansion and such like.
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Lots of very good answers here and I just wanted to hop on in and give my two-cents as well, if that’s alright.
Hmm, well, I’m not sure ‘discriminatory’ would be the correct word here. The simple truth is that people buy games that they believe they’ll enjoy- which is a good thing, since buying games that one wouldn’t enjoy would be rather… counterintuitive. And many people do enjoy romance in games- it makes things more personal, adds another layer of connection to the story’s character, and makes you care more about the base plot if for no other reason than it involves the well-being of someone who you’ve chosen to establish a relationship with, so seeing things that they like in a game- such as romance- would no doubt bolster their opinion of the game. Such is not to say games that are less romance-centric do poorly- many of them do quite well. (I point to a Study in Steampunk, because A: That’s my usual go-to example for fantastic writing but also B: it fits here as it has romantic elements to it, but those are by no means the focus of the game, and it still has a very, very fantastic 4.9 rating on Google Play).
So, yes, while true that games with romance will be more likely to rate higher- that’s by no real means discrimination against games without romance, but rather just a reflection of the fact that people buy what they like and the more they like the more they’ll be pleased with what they bought. And since romance is just another aspect that people enjoy… well, that’s just adding another smile to someone’s face, making them more likely to rate it even higher than they would without it.
Ah… well… there’s a danger with the “historically accurate setting” terminology, which is another can of worms all in itself that I don’t particularly wish to derail this thread with… but I suppose I would simply caution you with using “historically accurate” as a sort of unshakeable statement that can sweep all character-customization under the rug and go with one specific kind of character as an MC.
However, all that being said, I mostly state that in regards to questioning others decisions to include a more… flexible and player-decided MC. Should you wish to write your own story and genderlock it or so on then, of course, you should write it as you wish! It is your story, after all. And as for whether or not that story could become CoG/HG, then, yes, it could. There’s already plenty of genderlocked stories, so that would, I’m sure, be no problem when it came to that.
I’ll refer you to Study in Steampunk once more in that regard. Others have suggested most of the ones that initially pop into my mind but I’m sure there’s more that I ca’t quite remember at this very moment.
And now that that’s all said and done, I also want to offer a few more… practical(?) reasons one might want to include character customization in their game (even if it doesn’t lead to large branching or even smaller branching):
-
Visualization -
Some people can better visualize their main character if provided more details about them. Some people already have a clear image in their mind of who they’re reading as but… that’s not everyone. So this simply helps those who don’t necessarily have a clear picture in their head while at the same time simply reasserts what those who did already know about their MC. -
Immersion -
This one goes off of the Visualization piece. Sometimes immersion can be enhanced even by the smallest details. Take this little descriptive statement: “Unfamiliar eyes stare back at you from the mirror- is that really you? It almost seems like someone else pushed your reflection aside- someone much more tired, with the skin around their eyes bruised purple from lack of sleep.” Sure now that’s all fine and dandy but even adding in a small touch if, say, the player chose their MC to have brown eyes and tan skin in the very beginning and acknowledging that could increase immersion- even just “Unfamiliar brown eyes stare back at you from the mirror- is that really you? It almost seems like someone else pushed your reflection aside- someone much more tired, with the tan skin around their eyes bruised purple from lack of sleep.” is acknowledging that, yes, this is you in here, not just some disembodied figure but you, the you with brown eyes and tan skin- you. -
They Want To -
This one is perhaps the simplest reason of all. The author wants to do so- it doesn’t matter why or what purpose this serves (if any, which it really doesn’t have to when this matter is concerned). It’s the authors story and should the author choose to include character customization then, by all means, go right on ahead! What does it matter, really? It doesn’t harm the story or any way or mean that they’re placing any less focus on it. It’s just the author having fun with their writing and, well, writing what they want… Which I would personally say only leads to a better quality story overall (it feels like you can tell when an author is having fun with their work- readers are more likely to have fun, too!)
I hope some of that makes sense.
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I recall reading a rather in-depth review of the Choice of Robots story, during which the defenders and the author seemed to brush aside several of the points raised by the reviewer. Hardly a ringing endorsement of “the most successful game”.
Heroes Rise seemed to assume much regarding the character- so much for choices. Of course, the premise of both stories did not engage me enough to persuade me to spend the required amounts so perhaps all the reviews I have read are incorrect.
In other words your story will require every character to reach the same point at the same time on the railroad, but at least they can choose what outfit they are wearing for the journey?
Actually I don’t mind linear plots. I mind the denigration of stories that don’t include ‘pick your gender’ as somehow lacking even when the vast majority of the CoG stories are just as linear as the ones being denigrated.
So why bother with the attributes and the attempts at ‘gameplay’ at all? Why not create ‘interactive visual novels’ and be done with it?
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Heh. 
We may have different ideas of what constitutes endorsement. If someone was moved to write over 5,000 words about the themes of my story, I’d be pretty happy even if it were a hit piece. (Any publicity being good publicity and all.)
If said reviewer began with “I greatly enjoyed this book,” and closing by reemphasising that it had “engaging narratives (the copious amount of text I have in this thread specifically about the themes of this game is all the evidence I should need…)” and had engaged throughout in a serious way with what I was trying to write, I’d be delighted–as I suspect Kevin was, from his response.
Setting aside its ability to inspire long-form writing about its themes, I think it’s not unfair to describe Choice of Robots’s endorsement by users of Steam (1479 reviews, “Overwhelmingly Positive”), Android (4.8) and Apple (4.9) as ringing.
Tastes vary; the fact that you didn’t like the beginning enough to buy it is fine. But it does slightly weaken your rhetorical question “Linearity? Which CoG story is NOT linear?” when you haven’t read CoG’s bestseller which does the opposite.
Then I’d recommend staying focused on what really bothers you–which I take to be fan behavior and CoG policy when it comes to choosing gender. You’re not really in a strong position to argue that “the vast majority of the CoG stories are just as linear as the ones being denigrated” if you haven’t read most of them past the opening freebies.
And it’s a non sequitur anyway. The people who denigrate stories without a choice of gender aren’t complaining that those stories are too linear. They don’t argue that a choice of gender adds helpful branching to the plot; often they explicitly don’t want it to branch on the basis of gender and orientation. They value having a story in which a main character of their own gender and orientation can experience exactly the same storyline as anyone else, not get channelled into their own branch.
That doesn’t mean they don’t value branching in the rest of the story; there’s a perfectly consistent rationale for preferring non-branching for gender and orientation and branching for other choices, even if that’s not your own preference.
Meanwhile, we agree that great games can be and are written without a gender choice. Some of the most popular stories on the forum are single-gender: Study in Steampunk, Sabres of Infinity, Guenevere. It’s true that authors will get challenged on whether their game really needs to be single-sex, and that most CoG readers prefer a choice of gender; but that doesn’t keep games without it from finding an audience.
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What arguments do you find most compelling for games that do limit choice in this way? I feel like Guenevere has the strongest rational personally for genderlocking.
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I guess I don’t find any of them literally compelling. I think any of those games could be made accessible through a Broadsides style genderflip, and that the result overall would be rather more people getting to enjoy them and a bit of healthy queering of gender expectations.
But at the end of the day, I’m also sympathetic to authors saying, “That’s not my vision,” and riffing on Sherlock and John rather than allowing the option to play Sherlene and Jane, or insisting that part and parcel of Infinite Sea not being a power fantasy is not giving you the choice of gender.
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Wow, this thread got busy! Posting from work so I’ll try to keep this quick, but I just wanted to say I appreciate the detailed and thoughtful responses I’ve gotten from what started out as just a little venting on my part.
I’m actually now seriously considering converting the paladin story to a CYOA for the first time in nearly a year. If it winds up unpopular because of having predeveloped protagonists or for whatever reason, then oh well, making money off of writing has never been anything I seriously expect. (I’ll keep in mind some of the opinions on demos I’ve been reading here as well.)
The original story was about 70k words and I’m not sure how much of it is directly salvageable at this point (in third person, and everything I wrote two years ago is objectively crap…) but after going over it last night I’m convinced the plot and branch planning is solid, and I have extensive notes on the setting–and more opportunities to explore the setting was initially the driving force behind the idea. But I’ll make a separate thread to ramble about all this once I’m home so as not to derail this one further. (Need to check out the site guidelines again too and uh, learn ChoiceScript…)
As to the discussion on the value of replayability, I’ll just have to agree to disagree with a few of the posters here, because as a player I make it my goal to see every bit of text, and role playing is a huge thing for me in the rare game that really allows it. The ideal game for me really is one where a choice or series of choices at any point might lock you out of certain parts of the plot and reveal others that were hidden. Going back next time and discovering more is part of the fun, like solving a puzzle. (Maybe blame all the big sprawling classic CRPGs I used to play where the idea of seeing all the content with one character and one playthrough was ridiculous…they definitely don’t make them like they used to.)
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You clearly misunderstand.
The race, gender, and orientation options are not there to provide you with different playthroughs. They’re not “race and class” like in D&D. Those options there so that women, POCs, and queer people aren’t immediately othered by playing our games. The fact that these qualities don’t matter is a feature, not a bug. Instead, character and story are determined by the player’s choices, not by the random lottery of their genetics.
If you don’t like that, no one is forcing you to download and play the free demos of our games.
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Mostly on topic I hope. Another longtime lurker here chipping away at my own WIP. I’ve wondered for a while if it’s better to write a game where the player’s choices alter the reality of the game’s world (as in Broadsides or more classic CYOA books) or if instead the world exists in a fixed state that the player interacts with through their choices. I feel both can result in compelling narratives.
I think the difference lies in the replayability though: if in one game I encounter a society that values strength, but in the next replay a choice of mine makes it so that that same society now values compassion when I encounter them, it cheapens the experience, at least for me. The game’s world suddenly feels less real because of that mutability.
On the other hand, speaking from the perspective of a white cis male, the gender flipping NPC’s don’t bother me so much, at least generally. I know I personally won’t see the flips in my playthroughs, because I’m going to go the straight male route. I suppose in some sense that does mean the gender of those characters isn’t a defining factor for them, but I think the best way to handle that is to go Choice of Robots style and make them two separate but similar people, rather than a flat out name and pronoun swap. It’s the route I’ve decided to take for my own game.
As others have said, being able to project oneself onto the MC is really integral to the experience. So I think allowing for choices that affect the game’s reality for inclusivity’s sake (again, like Broadsides) is important. I do find what Moxie suggests interesting and appealing though: a game where the character you play as can seriously alter what options/paths are accessible to you. I agree with Havenstone in so far as I don’t think that and inclusivity are inherently mutually exclusive however.
Seeing the arguments in this thread on both sides has been really enlightening and beneficial to me as a writer. There’s so many philosophies on how to write a compelling choice game.
And if should be a no brainer that these writers who have brought us so much enjoyment should be compensated for their work. Especially when the price is so low.
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