Affairs of the Court

[Ramidel]

@Tigras, jammy: I meant an option where you marry Torres and remain faithful would be a nice option in the writers’ spare time. I’m of the opinion that no path should be an invalid one, even if it’s not very popular. Calling an unadulterated Torres marriage a bad path is too much of a slap.

I agree that the game gets weird due to having a plot that’s inherently based in gender inequality in a gender-equal world. Necessary to have a proper gay romance, but still very weird. A Jane Austen heroine doesn’t have the option of going out and becoming a warrior sorceress and earning her own lands, and all the CoGs before Heroes Rise have been extremely archetypal and as close to the source material’s cliches as possible. (See: Choice of Broadsides.)

It comes down to the limitations of this being a romance game. The usual assumption of a dating sim is that you’re going to be dating and that the endings are defined by the romance arc. If you want to break away from your family and make your own destiny, elope with de Mendosa.

[jammy]

@Syndicate It sure does! De Vega is like the smartest most powerful man at court alongside the King and Yourself (possibly) really though Your character and De Vega are the true rulers. Being able to fool even De Vega means you are the master of the game of thrones lol! And if you play your cards right by doing what is best for the kingdom De Vega, will end up willing giving you more power than him anyways! And you have a point, about Juanita but you would either need De Vega on your side or be able to outsmart him (which is tough) because he is like Varys and actually cares about the Kingdom and not its rulers and he may find the whorey King/Queen easier to manipulate!

@P_Tigras Oh thank you! Court intrigue brings out the devious in me! and I agree with you about Juanita as well. Threatening the Kings’ first legal son (even though he is a death mage) shows how naïve she is in the game of intrigue. And she was/is a threat. If the King/Queen died MOST likely she would have succeed the monarch and I have no doubt that killing you and your children would have been her first movements. And excellent observation of our characters original rank. Because even if/when the monarch marries us, practically ALL the life mages are not happy and even the public hates you till you pop out a life mage baby. It split the entire country inn half on waited breath and in part your job is to fix that if you plan to keep your crown. As manipulative, deceitful, devious, shrewd, etc that my character(s) is/are, I realize that the country has to come first and be secure, and I have to maintain dominance over everyone else in court outside and inside the country if I don’t want to ever lose my power and pass my power onto my children. And I have thought about that now that keeping Juanita alive is going to come back to haunt me. I see a war with Sahara coming eventually. Because we’ve only been putting Band-Aids on a large open wound. She’ll probably get her new Husband (the future King of Sahara) to wage war in her name for Iberia. Hopefully I can manipulate Mendoza into creating an army of death mages to destroy Sahara and possibly invade it myself and start and Empire!

For the first set of comments on July 21sorry its long lol!

[jammy]

@Syndicate They could make a add on which would be interesting to start from a different place in life. Our character (female or male) is really reminiscent to Anne Boleyn of England and second wife of King Henry VIII. You have to start low and work your way up to power and then keep it. I have issues when some games whether written or played on a console/computer when you can’t tell the difference in genders other than appearance and voice. When I play a man I kind of expect him to “be a man” unless he is describe as a feminine or artistic, or whatever and vice versa with females. A lady instead of a butch unless I know why she is butch like (like a police dad or whatever).

@P_Tigras I agree here as well. Basically you being a man or woman is irrelevant, you being poorer is the equivalent of being a medieval woman regardless lol! I wouldn’t it doesn’t make sense because, unless I’m wrong when we come to court we are only 15 and a courtier so I can’t see a 15 year old low noble getting anywhere without a marriage to somebody rich or the royalty itself. As to the genders role, I agree because I think story was written with a female protagonist in mind which is totally fine (since I love playing both genders in games) but that the writer was forced to add a male part so things would be “equal” for all gamers. An update later on that makes a real difference in genders would be VERY appreciated.

For the second/third set of comments on July 21

[jammy]

@Ramidel I totally agree with that, I mean as many options as possible spells an intriguing and replay-able game to me! The game ironically quickly becomes less about romance and more about intrigue depending on player choice. If you decided to marry Mendoza who knows maybe you do end up becoming a powerful and respected wizard and are recognized by court/ the crown. But this game was intentionally geared for intrigue I believe.

And lol sorry I posted three times in a row! I have to start checking back everyday!

[Syndicate]

Are they actually working on a CoR3?

[jammy]

@Syndicate You know I’m not sure! Last I heard (well read) Jason was working on CotV but I’m not sure how far he actually is on that… I would love the chance to test what has been done. But I’m sure that if work has not begun, it will hopefully continue or start after part 2 of CotV is out.

[P_Tigras]

@jammy I’m of the opinion that as an eldest child, it would have been very important to your family that you carry on the family name, and that can’t be accomplished as a subordinate spouse who takes the senior spouse’s surname. If the money and the royal favor that had been channeled into the player’s court wardrobe and other expenses had been channeled into a horse and a suit of armor instead, our character could be a young squire training to be a knight, or very possibly some sort of battle wizard. And if necessary, it would be your younger siblings that would be married off as subordinate spouses in an attempt to increase family funds. The only reason in the end that I can come up with why this wasn’t an option is because that would have made for a very different game. So I tend to feel that the game designers took quite a few liberties with human nature to try to make this type of game fit into a gender equal world.

[jammy]

@P_Tigras Take into account that your uncle is a part of the family name. I’m assuming he is younger than your father (maybe mid to late 30’s). I find it odd he and your aunt have no children at least any mentioned kids. Also if you married a rich man (Torres) or even better the King/Queen your whole family would legally be royalty through marriage. The King/Queen gives your family new lands and money making them filthy rich (remember how happy uncle is in part 2 if you married the Monarch?). So even while you personally take on the Monarchs last name, the rest of your family flourishes (Like your younger sisters and brothers who can also carry on the family name).

The money could have been set up for you to be a knight, but a poor noble family in that time period wouldn’t probably see knighthood as a means of saving the family. Being a squire waiting to be knighted could take years rather than a single season at court. Really the youngest are the ones who are meant to “fend for themselves” the oldest is always the heir of sorts and them running off to be a knight or wizard would probably shame the family more than the youngest.

Logically I can see where the writers are coming from if they’re following the type of logic I’m thinking along, but you are right in that they may not have wanted the game to go in a adventure, full on rags to riches story but more of a intrigue or true love story.

[P_Tigras]

@jammy

We’re not talking about D&D style adventuring here, we’re talking about the very real “noble” tradition of making war, where feudal power was based on one’s ability to provide troops during time of war, and where knighthood was the gateway to gaining a real title. And at the time of Henry VIII, the responsibility of knights and higher nobles to command troops was still unquestioned.

Hidalgos in Spain started out as cabalerros or knights. In return for military service when their Lord summoned them they were exempted from taxation. That exemption from taxation at some point was made hereditary, and the ability to call them to battle eventually became a joke because over the succeeding generations most of them lost their combat prowess and had no clue how to fight. In some parts of the country over half the population eventually came to consist of Hidalgos. This made the tax burden on everyone else all the worse as the taxed class became a smaller, and smaller, as well as poorer, and poorer, segment of the population. Spain thus eventually found itself unable to fund the strong military it desired and went bankrupt four times between 1550 and 1600 due to its extensive wars and over-dependence on mercenaries.

Nevertheless, that doesn’t change the fact that success in war was the most common way to enter into the nobility and gain a title that came with real power. This is because in the days when titles were connected with the control of both land and the people living on that land, the possessor of the title was expected to use the land’s resources to maintain and muster the required number of knights and men-at-arms and even lead them himself on his king or lord’s behalf. Thus a King or powerful noble was far more likely to give a title with real power to a knight who has earned respect in war then someone without any military experience (unless that person is a very close blood relative like a son). A King might give his mistress or her father a manor or three, but he won’t give her a barony, and he is highly unlikely to make her father a baron either unless he has sufficient military experience to justify the title. He might sell a merchant a high-sounding title with no real power, but would not give him a title with military responsibilities. A decorated knight on the other hand could not only gain lands, but eventually become a baron or even higher.

This is why poor young noblemen without powerful connections flocked to fight in the reconquista and later left in droves for the Americas when the opportunity presented itself. War/Conquest=Opportunity for Advancement.

[jammy]

@P_Tigras in this world though only the noble houses can really perform magic, which is why they are noble and not commoners/peasants. So only the noble houses could provide Warriors or knights and I’m sure like in GoT warriors are loyal to their houses rather than the crown and thus the kingdom.

I understand the real world Hidalgos, but in this fantasy world they use magic and it seems pretty constant in blood lines and unless you choose to be bad at it, it seems like even an average noble is adequate in their respective death or life magic’s. Mendoza seems to being coming up with the idea of bringing magic to everyone of Iberia thus separating the powers of the classes, but could create a united army for Iberia.

This is a true point you have, however I believe it would be more appropriate for a person of lower standing in Iberia. A commoner perhaps, who through childhood and teenage years is a squire, becomes a knight, fights and wins in a war against Sahara, becomes a war hero and is granted higher status/titles by the crown. Since we start of in a noble family however we obviously had ancestors who were warriors and accomplished all stated above in the past. Don’t get me wrong I love your ideas (all of them really lol ) but I don’t think it is appropriate for a family that is already accomplished and merely on the decline. Oh and I wouldn’t expect a King to give much to a mistresses family as you said, however if said girl became the queen her family would receive a lot!

This is a great idea for another story, but I think as we discussed before that the writers probably ended this story to have a female protagonist and the story is very similar to how a woman of that time period could make a grab for power herself, while a man or her brothers could grab power/glory through war/conquest.

We should see if CoG or someone else would be interested in making a semi spin off or maybe addition of some sorts for the story for a low noble or commoner t work their way towards power.

[P_Tigras]

@jammy House Aguilar’s troops certainly appeared to be more loyal to the Duchess of Aguilar than the crown and kingdom, much to Augustin(a)'s chagrin. The border lords were also fully capable of sending their troops raiding into Sahra without Augustin(a)'s approval. So clearly the nobility had power over their own troops. And if magical firepower trumped skill at arms as a gateway to the nobility, as the story implies, then a player character who chose magic as his or her primary strength and has a decent brain in his or her head should have found it easy enough as a magical prodigy to earn a high title without having to marry. Clearly not all nobles are equally potent even if all of them have at least a little bit of talent, otherwise your skill or Juanita’s skill wouldn’t be so commented upon.

The issue however isn’t so much magic vs arms, but military command experience vs no military command experience. It really doesn’t matter if the knight is a “warrior” or a “battle wizard”, or some combination of both. Only the very lowest ranking knights who are landless and entirely dependent upon their lords for support are without their own commands. Successful knights who have gained lands command their own soldiers, and often times even other knights.

Honestly, the odds of becoming the spouse of an already married monarch aren’t all that great, regardless of the potential rewards. Betting your family’s future on the monarch becoming so besotted by you that he or she executes the existing consort and marries you as a replacement is not something I’d bet upon before even being introduced. Odds are much better that my bright, and highly skilled death mage can earn lands and titles the same way most men who didn’t inherit them did in those times, through battle. There’s only room for one royal consort in the land, but there’s room for quite a few military heroes.

And I don’t buy the statements that 16 year olds were too young. There were numerous 16 year olds who became knights, a few of whom even commanded their own troops and turned out to be military prodigies like Edward the Black Prince. Back then teens weren’t treated like children, and noble born teen-age males were expected to learn the arts of war, and to command troops. A number of them like the Black Prince have even gone down in history as great leaders.

Arguing that commoners would be more likely to be made knights flies in the face of history. I have to wonder what made you think that. Young commoners were only very, very rarely given the opportunity to become squires. Fielding your own horse was expensive and commoners couldn’t afford it, and eventually it became illegal for commoners to become knights in many countries. Furthermore if a Lord decided to subsidize some new household knights because they couldn’t afford a horse, he’d subsidize some of the sons of his existing knights instead as a thank you for years of faithful service. The sons of peasants just weren’t considered leadership material. They had the same peasant blood running in their veins that their fathers did, and back then noble bloodlines were a big deal to the ruling class.

And yes, my basic contention boils down to the fact that since the traditional male path to success for poor noble sons remains theoretically open, it drills holes in the argument that you absolutely must marry and have no choice but to follow the traditional female path to success.

[jammy]

@P_Tigras A wonderful point of raising their status through pure magical skill! Though it didn’t seem to get Juanita too far in the GoT. The skills we choose to master: Intellect, Charm, Magical Skill, and not sure how to describe the last one lol determine how successful we are at different choices and how we can interact with certain people. A decent brain is not good enough to take on the likes of De Vega and the only way you get him on your side is through loyalty towards the crown. So you could unintentionally place yourself to be De Vega or to an extent the Monarchs pawn. And yeah I assumed that the nobility had a average bar and Juanita and possibly out player are WAY above that lol!

This is a good point. I’ve wondered how the military forces of Iberia are set up and trained in detail (I’ve been assuming from what is stated in game). If I recall (without going through an entire play through) that our sister/brother marries a General of some sort for the crown. So I’m not sure if this means that prominent Noble houses produce military generals or whether he was a general raised to nobility. And I understand ya about magic and arms its same thing basically lol!

For an average monarch no. For the one who we encounter in game (similar to real life Henry the 8th) I might just bet on it actually. His/Her wife/husband had given him/her no heir (life mage baby), they at best seemed distant seeing as he/she was whoring around, and his/her whoring around was his/her own down fall because you know his/her game and instead of giving yourself up, play your own game with him/her and force him to chase you! I do agree with you last point however. It is very true.

As to whether 16 were too young to do battle and gains titles, I can’t say in this particular world that the writers created. To my knowledge, Juanita is our exact age or older and VERY talented in magic yet has no war/fighting positions ever mentioned in game, so I can only assume that adults don’t consider 16 adults or don’t consider then properly seasoned to join the battle field. Again I can’t say cuz I didn’t right it, but I’m only assuming from what I’ve seen in game.

The commoner for me becoming a knight is just my soft spot for the underdog. A nobody who goes on to change Iberia’s future and maybe even the world lol. And you are very right about bloodlines lol everyone was obsessed about what such and such great grand uncles fathers cousins mothers brother did long long ago lol! But don’t forget some amazing and inspirational peasants who became legends in their own rights: (some minus titles and riches) Spartacus, Joan of Arc, etc.

Lol I’m sorry, but it is very much a female’s rise to power kind of game. I mean I LOVE it and I LOVE the male path to success you’ve yourself have been creating ! But until they update or maybe you join their ship, we’re stuck marrying our way to fame/infamy and glory!

Empress Isabel de Castillo or Emperor Cristóbal de Rivera sound pretty good to me! That is if I get the chance to defeat a Saharan invasion and take it over myself!

[P_Tigras]

@jammy Juanita was not your age, let alone older than you, in the story. It states that she is still only an adolescent in Choice of Intrigue, and an adolescent ranges between 12 and 14 years of age. While she was powerful for her age and her power was growing rapidly, she had not yet reached her peak.

Adolescence was considered a perfectly marriageable time for noble girls in Spain, but not an age at which noble boys saw much fighting unless things were really, really desperate. So it’s not exactly unusual that Juanita doesn’t seem to have seen much fighting. Although I highly suspect that the authors wouldn’t have gone in that direction even if she were older, since there is nothing like a good cat fight in a period romance novel, and Juanita as a jealous and bitter “lady” is more in keeping with the feel of a Jane Austin novel than Juanita as a jealous and bitter military officer.

The game is unfortunately rather vague regarding Don Felix de Chaves’s position. All we know is that he’s managed to earn the command of the country’s Southern forces. What his exact title is, we aren’t told, but we do know more about his appearance than we do about Augustin(a)'s, probably because his gender is fixed unlike Augustin(a)'s. Attention to detail is unfortunately not one of this game’s strongest suits so the game world isn’t quite as vivid as some others out there.

Regarding your two examples of successful peasant warriors, Spartacus was born into a very different time period, before medieval knights even existed, and at a time when slaves were trained to fight as gladiators. Joan of Arc on the other hand was born into the right time period and very much a stunning success, if only for two years. Her fate was to be burned at the stake for heresy for flouting the traditions of her times. Had she been a male knight instead of an illiterate female peasant she’d almost assuredly have simply been ransomed instead. Nevertheless, her heroic accomplishments in the two years before her execution at the young age of 19 were truly amazing.

I certainly agree that it is very much a traditional “female’s rise to power kind of game”. I just believe that given the game’s supposed gender equal premise, it should have been just as feasible for your family to arrange for your knighting (or whatever the equivalent is for a noble-born death mage in the military happens to be) either through the aunt who is a countess or via the favor Augustin(a) owed your uncle. Preferably you’d be given the choice between the two options of risking your life trying to make your fortune as a knight and the less dangerous, but more restrictive option of finding a rich spouse. Then during your knighting ceremony Augustin(a) could have set eyes on you and chosen you for his/her personal bodyguard, allowing your lustful liege plenty of opportunities to bring you on hunts, jousts and balls. Think of it as Jane Austin meets Alexandre Dumas’s Three Musketeers…

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t dislike the game as it is, in fact I like it a lot. It’s not often that I get placed into, what for me, is a novel situation, and one that I find highly insightful. I just see an inconsistency in the logic underpinning the game.

Amusingly enough, I’m not as inclined as you are to off my royal spouse in the game. I don’t mind being the power behind the throne. Oh I certainly would love to crush Sahra, become emperor, and rule in my own right, but at best I think we’d end up being regent for our life mage child until he came of age. And Augustina hasn’t been that bad to my character. Since I pretty much always get the ending where she loses interest in Adelita and stops cheating once I give her a life mage heir, I don’t really have that much to hold against her. While she may have bedded Adelita once or more times, a woman in my royal wife’s bed just isn’t enough to make me want to murder her, especially if she were to invite my character to join the two of them…

[Firlodge]

I would like to be able to play favourites. I magicked my way through on the last playthrough.

Would that type of character be drawn to a son who takes after them in all respects or would they prefer the son who is a heir?

[Syndicate]

P_Tigras
Whoa! I didn’t know she was that much younger than you in choice of intrigues! I thought she was around age in choice of romance, if not older! Were exactly does it say she’s an adolescent choice of intrigues? Her personality dosent set her up to be 14, she seemed sharper with the way she spoke and more skilled in magic to be so young. Well that ruins my theory/branching storyline/idea lol.

[P_Tigras]

@Syndicate

After the hunt during which either your character or Adelita was publicly kissed by Augustin(a), while making your way back to your rooms, you glance out a window into a courtyard and see Juanita and one of Augustin(a)'s men-at-arms, sparring with staves and spells. The story tells you that you’ve heard that Juanita spent her entire childhood training hard at Death Magic, saying that since she was a Death Mage and could not be Queen, she would be the very best Death Mage that ever was. It further tells you that now that she has reached adolescence, you can see that she is indeed unusually skilled. So the story slips in that she’s an adolescent while you’re watching her spar and considering her growing magical might. That’s the only time I recall her age being mentioned in either CoR or CoI however, and it’s easy to miss.

Now I’ve just realized that my definition of adolescent being between 12 and 14, particularly for girls (they develop faster), isn’t universal. There seem to be quite a few web sites defining anyone of either sex between 13 and 18 as an adolescent. So by that definition she could be as old as 16, 17, or possibly even 18. That may save your story line depending on how expansively you wish to define “adolescent”. I even saw one web site define anyone under 21, but over 15, as an adolescent. I think it a rare person who considers 20 year olds to be adolescents however.

I’m personally inclined however to think that Juanita is under 16 since 16 is considered the age of majority in the game and one who is considered adult enough to responsibly have children by his or her culture would no longer be considered an adolescent. It’s also hard for me to believe that our character who was married at 16, and has had an adult’s responsibilities ever since, would consider a 16 or 17 year old to simply be someone who “has reached adolescence”.

[Firlodge]

Hmm…I assumed that she was around Mateo/Magdelana’s age.

[P_Tigras]

Mateo/Magdalena is 14 in CoR, and CoI takes place five years later, so that would make your now married younger sibling 19 in CoI.

[Syndicate]

@P_Tigras
I guess it could work… Meh. I just want the next installment to come out. Preferably with more use of magic stats like assassins are attacking or you challenge someone to a duel to defend your honor.

[Firlodge]

Well, the player character got married at 16. So that doesn’t seem unreasonable.