To be honest, I don’t see why that’s an issue with anything. As I’ve said, I feel the answer is simply more difficult situations. I looked up how to keep the dog alive. I looked up how to recruit Crone and Kelly in the original ZE. Worrying about players finding a way around your challenges is a non-issue. Or at least, it should be, in my opinion. Regardless, all my points still stand and forcing a death which is indeed an RO is still cheap, in my opinion. I won’t feel more immersed, I’ll feel less invested because apparently the author can take anyone away. Which I get is the point, but therein lies the problem I’m talking about.
I haven’t seen @JimD’s plans on what to say in the game for people who do have her as an RO. I feel nothing you can say can excuse it.
Overall, I just don’t feel forced character deaths are an answer to making the game world feel threatening. If anything, it’ll just make it feel less reactive. I believe if Jim finds increasing the level of possible character deaths too overwhelming, which is completely understandable, he should simply find a different route.
You have to consider how a player invested in the character would feel; even the players like me who don’t even have her as an RO but still see her value which Jim has even admitted to, as well as how poor and much of a shortcut this option feels. With any character.
What I’m finding so disheartening is that the characters I like: Syfer, Gina, Bailey, die, but say Jaime, who I’ve disliked from the beginning and want to stab in the face, are protected
Long story short, as of the current chapter of part 3, there are three scripted deaths to the the group; Church, Driver and Gina. Many people have been mostly been reacting to Gina’s death, due to being a major member of the group, as well as being an RO.
I have had a rough few days and haven’t had a chance to respond to the recent feedback. However I will say on the scripted deaths that this is still a draft and nothing is final until it’s published. One of the difficulties in producing this game is the number of characters. Obviously this is my own fault because I really enjoy creating characters, but it definitely makes it a lot slower to produce. Especially with Gina, I felt the impact of her death would be felt because of her talents. I’m rethinking her death. No promises right now though.
Ok, that’s understandable since you can meet Gina rather early, has good stats and as stated is an RO, which would make her death not very well recieved.
Hope you feel better chief and no worries on the deaths in my eyes. It’s your story and the best deaths are the ones that cause feelings (i:e: Glenn from the walking dead Comic or Ashford from the expanse) I’m currently doing a Gina/Jillian romance and I got to say I could see how that loss would have a major impact on Jillian’s character growth not to mention our nephew’s. As for the comments on the loss of a useful skill I can see some friends we made along the way including a certain overprotective newcomer being a nice addition in the crafting department. As always keep up the great work as I know whatever you bring will always be great and you’ll always have a reader in yours truly.
I quite liked her death honestly, I wish it was something we could see rather than be told (like actually try to save her, but simply couldn’t) and on my Gina-RO generic run (I have a character for each significant storyline) I liked the desperate search for her and the death impact. I’d only request that if she dies have it continue to mean something and impact your relationship with the group.
The baffling number of characters that ZE:SH has is definitely something that can cause an author a bit of stress and get wanting to kill off some of the main cast so that it’s a little easier to write. I don’t really see the appeal of Rosie as a replacement for Gina RO wise, but again I liked Gina’s death and Rosie’s scene with Driver was nice.
That’s the point and popular demand of choice games. You want a challenge or realism? Play through naturally. You want to be Rambo who saves everyone? You can do that too!
I agree that you need to make things feel real to avoid the story going stale but that’s where you make extremely difficult situations that are only survivable by certain certain roles if playing normal and are challenging with upgrades. And you can always throw in some long but simple scenes that grab a players heart strings and then rip them out without taking down the core characters in scripted deaths. Not everything has to a be a long string of cause and effect choices.
@JimD Take care and feel better! I’ll keep you in my prayers. Let me know if you need anything!
As to the feedback, you have the POWER! It’s just feedback! Don’t let us sway you if your instincts say otherwise. That said, I am glad you are reconsidering. As to character management, I’d have to REALLY think about it but you could probably create a character page specifically for tracking characters, recycling code, and enabling or disabling characters based on their alive or dead status. Having a centralized page would make the rest of your code much cleaner, and avoid excess complications. You could also hide this code from viewers, I’ve seen a couple writers do this somehow.
I personally don’t have any major issues with the deaths being scripted. I would prefer more player agency in the matter (and understand the difficulty in keeping track of everyone), but here I felt it was somewhat contrived to have it happen in the way it did that exacerbated how forced it felt. The scripted deaths in Part 2 made some sense and were more-or-less out of the player’s control. Here though, Eli opening the gate by himself, and nobody noticing the horde until it’s too late seemed alright at first, but as I thought about it, it seemed less believable. While I get that Eli doesn’t understand what’s going on and complacency is kind of the point of the scene, I don’t find it that believable that they’d all be complacent to this extent, especially given the potential results for the earlier confrontation with the Silverthornes
This is especially the case if the player manages to set up the reinforced gate or with the alarm system, which are presumably in place exactly to avoid hostiles from getting near without notice. In addition, one presumes a more martial or heavy-handed setup to have guards posted to also prevent this, or at least give early warning.
Perhaps it’s my reading of the situation (or a lack of recollection of the earlier parts, it’s been a while since I played them through), but they really should have been prepared for this or at least been less complacent, especially given the caution one could show towards the motorcycle gang. At least in Part 2 when the Silverthornes show up you have Rachel and Dante not mingling and keeping an eye out after Brody gives the warning. Further, earlier in Part 3, during the prom scene, careful vigilance is mentioned. Yet here, it just seems that everyone suddenly became a lot less careful because three people showed up.
It’s detached from the mechanics, too: why have watch duty, reinforced defences or alarms when in the narrative parts these don’t come into play? I feel that’s a bit immersion-breaking in that a distinct intent to prevent such a surprise attack doesn’t affect it at all
I love the complexity of the game. I am so excited about Part 3!
Some feedback:
Continuity error: After snooping through the house, Kevin had a talk with my character which ended with him agreeing to follow my leadership. If I choose as my next activity ‘Talk to Eli,’ Kevin will storm in demanding that we all leave.
Kevin’s behaviour (continuity error aside) doesn’t make sense in the ‘Talk to Eli’ scene. He flip-flops from open hostility to suspicion to sadness regardless of which conversation option I choose. It’s too erratic unless your goal is to present him as mentally unstable, which isn’t in line with the calm and collected conversation we had about his father’s illness earlier.
Same conversation. The moment I choose ‘talk to him about staying at the junkyard’ I lose the option to ask him about Leather Jack. Was that intended? If it is, it would be nice if there was some indication given that this is the option that will wrap up the conversation.
Continuity error: In the scene, where Madison, Brody, Nora and Reilley fight about the camper, I had already asked Reilley to live with me and he had accepted.
Benton interrogation. Spelling: ‘You know Benton this just trying to get under your skin, so you ignore him.’
Same scene using the subversive approach. Missing word: 'It’s not that we’re bad people, it’s just that we don’t really know (who) you are. ’
Same scene. Missing word: ‘So I doubt anyone (is) coming to save you, and I don’t know how long we can keep you safe here.’
Same scene. Wrong word: ‘"Frequently, and hostage situations, captives tend to become dehumanized.’
Same scene. Wording: ‘Especially in the beginning, the captors don’t view the hostage as a person anymore.’ ‘In the beginning’ doesn’t work with ‘anymore’ in this context. May just be my preference though.
Benton interrogation. Pacing? I know there’s the disclaimer ‘for testing purposes’ but is Benton meant to give up information so easily? First he insults Rachel and the MC, next he tells us about their leadership and group size. This is one of the scenes where in my mind trying the peaceful or subversive approach should come at the prize of losing out on valuable intel. I really hope he is lying because otherwise it ruins the tension.
Same scene. Spelling: ‘We’re look(ing) for strong survivors and those who fill a role: doctors, mechanics, fighters, able-bodied people.’
Same scene. Spelling: ‘“Find, we’ll go for now. We will be back, maybe in twenty minutes, maybe tomorrow. Or he may never come back at all,” Rachel says.’
That’s really great to hear. I’ve been working on giving each character a new direction, though I don’t want them to stray too far.
and actually enjoying writing it, and the drama is happening slowly over time.
I have a plan to add conversations with each of the NPCs. If I can code it correctly, you will be able to “enter a conversation” with characters at multiple points. It’s a lot to write so I’m waiting until the end of the main storyline for Part 3.
Yes, that’s a great point.
I’m definitely working on something to do with these manuals. I’m hoping to make it into Part 3 at publication, but it’s hard to commit to it. I’ve been playing Dungeons & Dragons for over twenty years, so I’m a huge fan.
Great point. I will add it.
Thank you for your comments.
I don’t view a morality stat the same way as I do in other games. It’s hard to say there is good and evil after society breaks down. Honestly I use stats like this for two reasons: as a visual monitor for players and to flavor text. I don’t generally force characters to take certain positions based on P/M stats.
Since you read past the public content, I don’t want to post here about chapter 10 ( thank you for being a patron), but I am happy to add extra choices that would more accommodate other ways of dealing with situations at the museum. Feel free to PM if you would like to.
I like your stat suggestions in lieu of morality, but it would be hard to change at this point. The game is over 1 million words, so changing stats at this stage is just not possible. Maybe for the next game?
I’m kind of surprised by your comments about Kevin. I will say that until you have a chance to have a full conversation, I can see your criticism that it really doesn’t have a lot of content yet. My hope is to build for conversations with all of the characters, but I just haven’t had time yet as I finished the main story. The thing with Kevin is that it’s 2012, he lives in a very small area of Colorado, and he’s quite closed off from the rest of the world dealing with his father and trying to keep their business afloat. I actually spoke to one of my beta readers, who is trans, and we thought about the difficulty of a trans person getting HRT or surgery during an apocalypse. Now, that beta reader has not had time to work with me much recently, but if you are interested in seeing changes to that character or how he’s presented, I am open to discussing them with you. This is exactly why I put up content — for feedback — and I would be happy to discuss and use this further with you if you are available and have interest.
Thank you for the list of other errors. I certainly have a lot of them in this content, and I appreciate your testing!
Thank you. It’s now on my list to fix.
I can definitely see how you would feel this way, and I will consider it as I rewrite part of that scene.
@JimD
Are Fred and Billie in the group that Rachel is suspicious of and wants us to tail? Or do we possibly meet them in the canyon or in the lab? Or after?
Hi! I hope you are doing well and will continue to write and explore this setting because you are very good at it! Glad to continue the journey with the colourful cast, despite the unfortunate events in chapter 9. I am upset about certain things that are unavoidable near the end, and while I do hope for a somewhat fulfilling and bittersweet ending for the survivors, I actually like that it is possible to experience such pain, as it makes the stakes that much higher.
At any rate, here’s a bit of feedback for chapters 8 and 9, if it is still required. Please note that most of these are not major issues, but they did cause me to stumble and pause when reading, so to speak. Still, it is completely understandable if attempting to edit, fix or otherwise revise these bits of text would take to much time, effort and coding to improve.
Feedback here
If one invites Madison to be roommates after the whole living quarters argument with Nora and Reilly, she is seen looking for a place to stay despite being invited by Kevin to stay in the spare room in the house.
After the River Dogs encounter, when the characters offer their opinions on the group, Parker has a rather odd line - “They seem trustworthy,” Parker says, drawing put the word, seems. This does not seem like a proper sentence to me. Surely some words are missing?
If a leader MC picks Brody to go with them to the River Dogs camp, the game seems to treat him as if he is not there. His little exchange with Amir is missing and it instead goes to Jaime saying “Based on what Brody and Madison told me, we should’ve run across the strangers by now”, followed by the MCs line “I think you met our friend earlier, Brody and Madison?” (also, “friend” should be plural here, no?). But he is supposed to be right there with them? His lines about Benton and how he feels about the Dogs are also missing, he is simply silent throughout the entire encounter. This does not happen when Jaime is the leader.
If the MC is in a relationship with Madison, Brody’s line about Kevin’s interest in the prom seems a bit clunky (“Kevin said he wasn’t interested. He’s definitely into it.”). I think it would be best to either cut the second sentence entirely or keep the bit about high school. At this point, the MC likely knows that the guy has a crush on Madison, and if not, the middle sentence is a good way of hinting at it (“Kevin said he wasn’t interested. He kept asking if Madison is going to be there, and I thought it was high school over again. He’s definitely into it.”).
During the prom, if a character without an active romance decides not to dance, Bailey approaches them (although it initially says Jaime in the text, so I am not entirely sure which of the two it should actually be). Assuming Bailey is the intended character here, I think it should be possible to ask her about her relationship with Brody, just to inquire whether it is working out for them or not (if the MC wishes to pursue her romantically from this point onwards). There was nothing before to signify that they are no longer together, and I think it should be made clear what the situation is before becoming involved. Also, my gay male MC got approached by Gina under similar circumstances (which is fine, since his preferences are not exactly written on his forehead) and, since he kept things friendly, the next line said “You see Gina as a friend, maybe even as his sister, but not as a partner”. I guess it should be “your sister” instead of “his sister”. And again, as with Bailey, it said “Jaime” in the text, but “Gina” in the tabular thingy with the choices.
Lastly, with regard to the prom, I find that some of the characters (namely, Tommy and Kevin) behave in a clashing manner and it causes the flow of the text to become awkward. I suppose the conversations with them work only if the MC approaches them before the very first dance, otherwise they seem strangely off. With other characters it is clear that they are taking a break but are also involved. Currently, the wording of the dialogues makes it seem as though the guys did not go out to dance at all before the MC suggested it, whereas they most certainly did in my case (since they were approached for the 3rd and 4th dance, respectively). And the change in the mood is jarring. Ah, the same could be said about the nephew, actually - giving the MC the cold shoulder either before or after happily dancing away with Gina. For a moment there, I thought the friendship value reset, but no. I just think it would be nice to perhaps acknowledge that Tommy allowed himself to relax for a bit, and Kevin got to dance with his crush. Maybe?
A character with a hearing impairment should not greet and refer to Laurel by name when freeing her because they did not talk to Laurel properly yet, and have no way of knowing what her name is at this point.
Speaking of Laurel, I think that if a character is in a relationship with Reilly and notices his crush on her, it should be possible to address it. I thought it was odd to not have any reaction at all.
If the MC chooses to lure Murphy into the cell to knock him out, the choice “Knock him unconscious, so I can then escape” causes the game to think that the MC did not yet meet Murphy face to face, and escaped through the vents (?). They encounter Murphy in the hallway again with the three choices (knock out, restrain or kill) present. Picking any of the 3 options allows the story to continue as intended.
Finally, a question. Since the teen’s parents are likely to make an appearance, would the college student also be able to contact their parents somehow? They did not get the phone call bit, so I’m guessing a reunion is unlikely. Speaking of family, is the nephew’s biological father not in the picture at all? I do recall him mentioning his mother’s boyfriend, but he never talks about his dad, so they’re completely estranged, I assume? But I still wonder if it would be possible to make contact with either of them somehow, or bring them up in conversation to get a sense of what the situation is like?
Last question for now, I promise. I would like to know how and when Parker got his leg injured? Is this condition relevant to a specific scenario that takes place in part 2? Does it happen on the hill or during the militia encounter? He was never injured in any of my saves, nor do I want him to be injured, but I am curious about this scenario because it is an unexplored path to me.
I liked Church even if he wasn’t especially popular and will miss him.
Not that I’m against scripted deaths, I think they serve as effective reminders that the MC can form close bonds with others and still might have to lose them, such being the harsh world of the zombie apocalypse.
when you meet amir and Emily they offer you meat but my character is a vegetarian, the option doesn’t show up tho