What are your controversial opinions of IF Games?

True, there’s a reason why shows like Westworld and Game of Thrones are popular where women who are for many in those environments second class citizens and prone to getting raped or attacked rise up to become leaders themselves.

I know right? I only stumbled across it being that because I happened to play as a black female vampire in a second run and didn’t expect that you can have distinctively different conversations and entire scenes and romances can change based on race and whilst it does touch on the difficulty of being black or female in those times I never felt it was punishing you… rather giving you new and distinctive perspective. As long as it was handled well I would like it if more games tried that.

4 Likes

I don’t know how controversial this is, but: I don’t think an IF game is improved by making the scope so wide that it tries to cater to every player character’s wish in a given situation. Although I like scope and variety when replaying, going too far into sandbox territory can dilute the theme or tone of a game. And it can really stall writing progress if you’re trying to account for every eventuality.

30 Likes

Honestly the only game I deliberately played through multiple times as different races. Which I honestly only started because they had different stats.

Well said. Of course I understand the desire for a Sandbox!! Who doesn’t!? But try writing one. If there’s a game of ours that feels more like a sandbox, then I guarantee it’s a well-written railroad or a very long game.

6 Likes

Completely agree! I’ll add a controversial opinion of my own to this: sometimes making a WIP public can be dangerous for new or inexperienced writers, especially if they don’t already have a very strong vision of their story before opening it up to outside influence. When given access to a game in development–something that can be changed and influenced to one’s personal preferences–people will often suggest more scope, more customization, more choices, more variety… and I feel like authors who try to accommodate these desires too much risk having their game pulled in too many different directions (losing shape and becoming aimless/diluted). Or the project becomes bloated or too ambitious to ever actually be completed. As you say, trying to account for every eventuality (or reader preference) makes it almost impossible to write a good story, in my opinion.

(Now, this isn’t to say that I don’t love community feedback or the WIP-forum process: I personally don’t think I’d have nearly as much motivation to get anything done without it! I just think that it can be dangerous in certain circumstances.)

20 Likes

You have vent better my frustrating then ever I could thank you!

1 Like

I don’t quite want to push back against this (because I agree) but I do kind of want to iterate on it from where I’m sitting.

First of all, yeah. The fact that you’re genderlocked male starting in Sabres of Infinity absolutely reinforces patriarchy. That was a conscious design decision I made partly because of the story I wanted to tell, and partly because it was easier. The historical sources I’d used to build my setting, the way which power dynamics work in that setting, and some of the particular themes I wanted to address made it easier to write that sort of setting, and as a 20-year-old undergrad who’d never written anything professionally before in his life, that was an important factor.

Do I regret doing that? Not really. I chose to make a vast number of compromises starting the Dragoon Saga (foremost of which being the fact that I did start with Sabres of Infinity and not the middle of Lords of Infinity where my original plot kicked off) for the sake of getting something written and published. Genderlocking was probably the easiest to make(given the alternative was tearing the whole setting apart and rebuilding it). I made my peace with the fact that there would be a large proportion of people who’d decide against going through the series for that reason, and I consider that a perfectly valid reason to avoid it.

That being said…

I’m a cis-het dude, that gives me a certain amount of privilege. I was also born in a place which colonial empires seemed to favour as a punching bag. The most famous thing to happen to my hometown in recent history was the time the armies of one of those colonial empires used a diplomatic miscommunication as an excuse to murder several thousand locals. That gives me a certain amount of cultural and historical baggage. The effect that baggage has on me and the way I express myself affects how other people - people who have come from societies who’ve benefited from the same wealth plundered from the land of my great-grandparents - see me. Hell, that baggage has an effect on how I see me.

I didn’t necessarily write The Dragoon Saga for people who want to be heroes of their own story. I wanted to write it so others could understand the baggage that I, and billions of other people, are carrying around. I wrote it because genre power fantasy so often comes from a certain mindset that if only certain people applied enough violence or veiled threats of violence to a problem, it would go away, and everything would be fine. That baggage I carry around is the residue of successive waves of people who acted as if they were in power fantasies, and that colours how I see them.

I wrote The Dragoon Saga for the sake of the bystanders, the NPCs, the “quaint locals with their absurd customs” which the “hero” “rescues” and “civilises”. I wrote it because I feel that power fantasy, and especially power fantasy in the fantasy genre, carries with it a nasty colonialist streak if not in text, then certainly in subtext, not because the people who write them are racists, but because that’s the political status-quo, and as I’ve already noted, choosing to maintain the status-quo is easy.

So I guess there are my controversial opinions:
1: Power fantasy works for escapism, but it reinforces the structural mentalities of the powerful in a way which disassociates them from the situation of the powerless.
2: Works can be progressive in some ways, and reinforce harmful status-quos in others, because it takes concerted effort to make strides towards the former. How that balances out is based on the opinions and circumstances of the individual reader.
3: Progressive, permissive power fantasy comforts the afflicted. Restrictive non-power fantasy afflicts the comfortable, there is, and should be space and support for both.

27 Likes

I concur with this.

The trend in the gaming world is to go more and more with the “crowd-source” testing and avoid the cost of more traditional testing. When an IP (such as WoW) is strong and established, the result is much different than that gained in less-established environments. (Funcom’s Conan MMOs).

To keep with the thread’s topic -
My first controversial opinion: Very few developers/authors of IF design a proper testing regiment from beginning to end.

Different projects will require different testing regiments, that is a given. The trouble here is that one approach is given the “official” blessing and anything else is questioned as legitimate. I’ve seen changes that have been advocated for years emerge but for the most part an attitude of "if it was it was good enough for Choice of the Dragon or Choice of Romance it is good enough for everything else.

If anything, @Havenstone’s work should high light that many different approaches are valid and just as legitimate but unfortunately it is often referred to as an anomaly, an outlier or an exception that will never be revisited.

My second and last listed controversial opinion is that the structure of testing for official CoG titles is more harmful to the community as a whole and the individual works themselves than is acknowledged.

Creating an elite Beta Tester Extraordinaire is but one example of the structure aiding principles that CoG as a company itself works hard to overcome and replace. An entitled elite (or the perception of one) is something the patriarchal society tries to impose on the rest of us this is something that CoG as a company usually works very hard to avoid.

Recently there have been changes taken place (hello @HarrisPS) that try to overcome some of the structural flaws, so I hope that this trend is a continuous and growing trend and not a stillborn to be cast out as a failure.

8 Likes

There’s a lot of good and really different ideas coming out of this thread, and I am concerned that it is going to end up the “stuff about stuff” thread.

I wonder whether a thread about new beta testing ideas, for example, might be more easily found in the future if it were in a thread dedicated to that? Ditto for the interesting conversation about interchangeablity and patriarchy.

4 Likes

There are a few such threads already open. If you remember when Emperyium(sp) had just been published, there was a couple of lengthy discussions at that point.

2 Likes

Gower should remember, lol. When in one of my classical epic fails moments, I send him feedback there like he was the Empireum author. :frowning: Think that normally happens because
1 I am clumsy
2-Authors until that moment NEVER tried to engage a conversation with forum members. To point many never now who wrote who.

In fact beta testing cog is designed in a way you don’t know what you are supposed to say due you are being examined to enter in a PRIVILEGED group with a Patriarchy title and their own place during 3 years i tried to enter However my feedback was never enough good to be A badge person. so I just go to help the hosted that doesn’t require badges and i could have a interaction with them.
Of course i am very happy with new approach Cog is tsking lately

If I may open this can of worms:
While what a beta tester thinks of a story is of course always subjective, I had my fair share of stories (cog) now where as tester I was rather unhappy with how the story overall went.
I did note it in feedback, knowing however that a rewrite might be out of the question.
To then, when the games were released, see a lot of people list exactly those bits as negative points.

What I’m trying to say, maybe the betas are too short in some cases and from time to time a rewrite might be in order (From what I heard, though, Elevation was/is s massacre in that regard). If enough testers call for it (though this might need some asking about it, cause we saw with CoM how some bugs don’t get mentioned at all (the bug that the page would not bookmark in this case)) jason is scary, lbh )

2 Likes

I agree but I suppose paid writers doesn’t want have a deep development on beta earlier as they come to writing books not if or games. So I understand them. As tester of course, i would have more relationship and more interaction with authors know what they really want I focused and what they want to express about characrers and if the character feels like they intended.
Thats why I am very excited withHannah’s new project

2 Likes

Idk if this was mentioned before (sorry I’m too lazy to read all 75 posts. But I don’t like when representation is only part of the game bc it’s part of a checklist. I’d like to bring up an example to easier explain what I mean: I didn’t like how the nonbinary sibling was handled in A Russian Saga. I still don’t think that was the right place for a nonbinary character or at least not the way it was done. Like they stating they aren’t a boy or a girl and noone even questioning it. I know it wasn’t exactly a historic fiction since there were fairy tale element included in it, but still it was just weird imo. But maybe the problem wasn’t even that they were nonbinary maybe it was that we didn’t get to know him well enough and the only thing we know about them that they are nonbinary and we are supposed to save them but we don’t even feel that strongly about him being a nonbinary in itself isn’t a personality trait in itself I think.
The same goes for badly written romances (like the Twelwe Trials) it leaves the feeling that the author only did write a few scenes bc the readers expect it, but the author isn’t into it.
If the author knows they aren’t interested in something even the least bit then they should just leave it out bc the result cam be even worse, promising something to the readers what they won’t get and the readers realise it only after buying the game and playing the whole thing.
And it pains me to admit it but I guess even genderlocks belong here. If an author absolutely isn’t into writing the game for both gender then they shouldn’t do it and leaving some of the readers disappointed. For this my example would be Choice of Romance: okay, idk how actual male readers feel about it but out of curiousity I gave it a try with a male character and it just feelt weird.

7 Likes

It don’t feel weird for me as There were female queens exactly as Female Agustina like Catherine the Great in Russia and In Spanish the terrible queen Isabel II .Women that were pursuing boys in court and having affairs and bastards. In Spanish we have several examples of high nobles doing that. It is patriarchal system that wants to portrait women as nuns in a medieval settings when was far from it

3 Likes

Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t imagine women as nuns not even those who lived in the mediavel times. I imagine women as people who also wanted to just live.
No my problem with the male playthrough was how the MC was supposed to be kinda submissive regardless of gender and I didn’t imagine that males would be that way. Even if they need to come of as appealing for woman in a higher place in sociality I still imagined that a man would try to be more assertive. Tho maybe I just didn’t get far enogh in that playthrough I admit I restarted it quite early.

1 Like

I like shy submissive guys and are far far more than people believe. the problem is society tries to force them a supposed behaviour. Girl shy submission Male bold dominant. Well that’s a big fat lie . also you could be rather not submissive in the choice of romance and pursue yourself the king queen.

5 Likes

Submission in a relationship is more about relative power than gender. If a woman has the power over a male paramour, then for that guy, submission isn’t necessarily a matter of pride as it is a matter of self-preservation.

There are historical examples of this sort of relationship. I’ve brought up Manuel Godoy before (though he would go on to branch out into a ruinous tenure as Prime Minister), Empress Elizabeth of Russia consciously pursued lovers who had no political ambitions, in in turn, those lovers (especially Razumovsky and Shuvalov) carefully presented themselves as the Empress’ servants and court ornaments first to avoid losing the Empress’ favour. Catherine II’s relationship with Potemkin was on a more even footing, but he only wielded official power in the places she allowed him, and he ultimately had no claim of exclusivity over her, as proven by the Empress’ later involvements with men like Zubov.

Playing through Affairs of the Court as a man, I haven’t necessarily found anything that makes me too uncomfortable. The option to play a more active part in affairs of state presents itself in the later installments, but at the beginning, when you’re a powerless young man being pursued by a woman who has the ability to destroy you at a whim - a woman who is certainly intelligent enough to know the risks of getting entangled with an over-ambitious paramour - you either play the prey, or you die.

10 Likes

I didn’t like Choice of Romance as a whole, because I didn’t even like the king and it’s clear he was the one I was “supposed” to end up with (which is another thing. I hate when a romance game with multiple options where it’s supposed to be a choice has a “one true route”) I guess this will be my controversial opinion, cause I couldn’t really think of one on my own.

I haven’t played the first one in literal years and I hated the beginning of the second one so much I didn’t play it or the third so I might be blanking on something or something happened in the other two games (one thing I really feel like I recall another use saying is at some point a male MC and his brother are actually referred to as “ladies” so that’s… something, if my memory is correct), but I also didn’t get too uncomfortable of a scenario when playing. Except, I did feel like the author wanted to write the classic romance story with a female protagonist and a male king falling in love or w/e that was supposed to be. I’m not saying that’s what the author was actually feeling, but the problems lies in that it came off that way. This isn’t the first time that was brought up and the response was still “the author didn’t intend it that way,” but when that’s the only answer you can provide, it just shows clearly there was a bigger problem in the writing to give multiple people that impression.

Playing the game as gay male MC, I did feel like I was playing the role of a submissive feminine gay guy, as per the stereotype. While I AM a submissive guy and it’s hard to tell my gender when I shave my face, it’s still a stereotype presented most often in media and an unfortunate side-effect of the way the game was written, so while it might have fit me, there’s a lot more diversity in real life MLM who might’ve been uncomfortable with that, ya know? :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, presenting it this way is definitely where it gets uncomfortable for me lmao. If I hadn’t played the game and it was described like this to me, I probably wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole :sweat_smile:

1 Like

Mind you, I’m big on the sorts of games that let you navigate social minefields and the like, so maybe it’s just me.

3 Likes