Wayhaven Book 4 Discussion Thread

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I actually loved the whole soulmate thing when she brought it up. Unfortunately, it means absolutely nothing in the romances other than an excuse for why the MC chases their LI in desperation. But the LIs’ sides? Maybe it becomes a little apparent in F’s route, because they’re open with the MC, but that’s just their personality. N still holds back, and that’s someone who apparently believes in soulmates, and should be feeling that draw. But A? M?

The former is supposedly in love with the MC, so in love that they jerk them around constantly, then wants to kiss them then dump them only to go right back to acting like they’re interested again. The latter is permanently stupid and the only one of the four who ends up basically telling the MC they don’t want to lose them only to return to acting like they don’t really give a flying fuck if they see the MC. M is the only one who is still casual, for all intents and purposes, and it’s never going to stop. It’s clearly the only romance that will never have an actual relationship or M voicing their feelings because the MC is required to be psychic and know what M is thinking for the sole purpose of M never having to say it. M is a “if you can’t be with the one you want to fuck, fuck the one you’re with” type. And I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if they did fuck around behind your back at this point. The MC’s powers will drive them away and they’ll go seek their physical comfort elsewhere (or appear to), only to come back at the end of b4 and act like nothing happened again.

So yeah, the LIs aren’t obsessed with the MC. The MC is obsessed with the LI and, with the exception of F, the LIs are all cool and kind of detached, keeping the MC at arm’s length whenever it suits, then pulling them closer if the MC courts death or gets kidnapped. But then they forget all that two seconds after it’s over.

Ugh, that means she’s going to kill Mason.

I wanted this, but wanted it done a different way than you suggested. I wanted it done in front of the MC, bringing about a crucial game-branching choice: do you agree to go with Sin to save your LI or do you let your LI be taken (or hesitate too long) and then have to rescue them? It would’ve been glorious.

Bobby or Douglas could’ve gotten swept up in the net as well, and been there for you (or stuck with your LI should they be the ones captured). Can you imagine a M/Bobby or A/Bobby scene with them in a cell together? :rofl:

Granted, my MC would’ve sacrificed herself for Mason. But that would’ve also been fun. And the kidnapping could’ve lasted more than two seconds, with MC trying to escape while the LI freaks out and tries to mount a rescue or with the MC trying to get the LI out.

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Quick aside, but what is a DMNPC? I assume the latter part is ‘npc’ but what does the DM stand for? Is this a DnD reference?

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This isn’t what I mean.

I think authors should find people they trust to give them good, honest advice (if they’re just blowing smoke up your ass constantly, they cannot be trusted to do this). That’s hard to find.

If something an author publishes was a flop, naturally that requires some reflection and analysis, but I’ve seen scores of people completely missing the point offer more or less useless criticism because they are simply ignoring what the creator was actually trying to create in favor of what they wish it were (if they are coming from a place of good faith in the first place).

Perhaps they mean well, but it’s not helpful if you’re trying to bake a chocolate cake for people who like chocolate cake and people keep asking why it isn’t strawberry-flavored with sprinkles or something. Now, any chocolate cake lovers you reach may still think your cake sucks, but they might give you better advice on how to improve (even more so if they know a few things about baking). Even then, it may come down to something as simple as personal taste.

I agree that something like this is valid criticism, but I’ve seen plenty of people disagree over motivation and other fuzzy sorts of details. We bring a lot of ourselves into our interpretations and experiences (even when we think we don’t - sometimes especially then) so even this isn’t the most reliable. I’ve seen a lot of projection in how people react to fiction.

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It is a reference to Dungeon Master non player characters, usually more on those that are more important than players by far.

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Sera updated the Patreon with a new link for the demo on COGDemos. See here: CoGDemos.

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The cake metaphor is pretty good: I’m well aware that there are people asking for strawberry when the store says chocolate, but aside from a few jokesters I’d say most comments are in the chocolate department (lack of character consistency, sensitivity readers, pacing etc etc like mentioned above.)
I’d say it’s fair to say the writing could use some actual beta work, and that logic should be present considering this is also a detective story, but obviously the plot’s outline shouldn’t change because that’s the story she wants to tell. It’s the details which should change, not the skeleton.
Like making personality variables stick would be a huge improvement already, to give a simple example. But the writing lacks consistency because you get a few lines of your chosen pick and then it’s back to standard detective (the smiling fella I suppose Sera envisioned in her og novel.)

tldr; feedback should be filtered and the actual advice should reach the right ears, instead of being completely ignored on principle. No one in their right mind is asking her to change the story, just to make the writing flow better.

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Ah, that makes sense. Thank you!

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Once again, it kinda shows that the author only wants to tell her version of the story. She has one canon MC in her head and one canon timeline, probably even one canon LI (Idk who, N? Not fucking A, that’s for sure). Everything else is an afterthought at best. That’s why the player has virtually no agency over their PC and absolutely no affect on the world. Which is, imo, counterproductive for an Interactive Fiction. Just write a book at this point.

God I’m exhausted with this series. Don’t know whether to buy later books just to see it through or cut my losses.

Pure and probably unfair speculation

Idk why Rebecca is such a special Could Do Nothing Wrong girl, maybe she was the planned MC in the first drafts? Because she sure has more lore and backstory locked behind her than a 900-something y.o. vampire that could’ve been frozen directly after that One Tragedy and woken up in that warehouse for all the maturity they gained.

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Oh yeah, here? We are chocolate cake people desperately wanting some decent chocolate cake.

The discussion was sort of bleeding into generalities and I was thinking of instances where I have absolutely seen people elsewhere broadly missing the point. Tbf I was probably venting a little bit and that’s my bad :sweat_smile:

I agree!

Right, this was never a criticism I had of us here on this particular thread. I was speaking very broadly about something I’ve noticed about works of fiction and critical fans. (And whether or not an author needs to take said criticism into account. My stance is an unequivocal “no.”)

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Of course, any author should not stay in an association of mutual adoration. When their ideas are not challenged at all that will never improve.

About the cake metaphor, I think it ties to what I said before about fulfilling the promise by the author. It’s one thing if I go to a chocolate cate store and want a strawberry one and the other when the turns have tabled. In this case, I wanted a big fat chocolate cake all to myself and went to the fat chocolate store but only the label was from the cake I wanted. It’s not like people saw Wayheaven and thought “I want more spaceships!! And they better be strawberry ones!” We all went to the right store but the chocolate was watered down.

Yeah I was taking broadly too and then tied it back to Wayheaven. And I agree, the authors doesen’t need to take criticisms into account, I don’t know how often does it pay off tho.

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I always thought it was exactly A, because no other RO turns MC into this wibbly wobbly jello cake that can’t even stand straight in A’s presence.

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My bet has been on A from the beginning. The original route (when Wayhaven was planned to be a novel) is the love triangle, and the love triangle gets sorted FAST if N is endgame, to the point it isn’t even a love triangle. So the only viable option is A.

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… So why is A the most unsatisfying emotionally abusive dragged out for no reason to the point that no amount of pay-off would be enough route? I’m actually shocked.

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I don’t have any idea. She’s just as much a blank as literally every other character. I think what makes Rebecca so wonderful is the same thing that makes the ROs so appealing and the story as a whole so compelling…the author’s headcannon.

The problem is, she’s not transferring that headcannon onto the page.

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Because the real route for A is the love triangle.

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Yeah, it’s often pretty clear what I’m supposed to feel most of the time, whether it’s about characters or plot developments (whether I actually do feel that way is hit or miss). More and more it feels as though something is missing.

I can see the story the author wants to tell with Rebecca’s character (and each of the LIs for that matter), but the writing doesn’t really sell me on it after a certain point. In Rebecca’s case, the writing lately makes it seem like the MC was always supposed to reconcile with their mother, rather than leave it up to us, which is directly contrary to every decision we were presented in B1.

Oh, yeah. That makes a lot of sense actually (and from what I recall of the LT, it puts external pressure on A and MC to deal with their shit, lest they break up “the family” with their pining, unlike the A solo route).

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I want strawberry spaceships now.

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Honestly, I think that the author considers to be romance. The longer it’s dragged out, the better.

The payoff thing is the problem, though. At this point, is it even possible to have the payoff balance what’s been endured thus far? I mean, maybe it will shock the shit out of me and make me want to go back and play A’s route (I quit after b3–Adam needed to be punched or kicked square in the nuts). But I doubt it.

Though, I guess at least there will be payoff in A’s route. M’s route gets nada. MC just magically knows M loves them and M never has to commit or give the MC any sort of verbal affirmation of their feelings. Fucking lame.

All of this. A thousand times over.

As soon as I read that line, I knew you were going to say this. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Like @JBento said, the LT was the original route she was planning when Wayhaven was still supposed to be a book series. A and N were also male in the original plan, with a female detective, for what it’s worth (I feel like that explains a lot of why Wayhaven feels so incredibly bizarre if you play as a queer character). She said she turned it into an IF series because she couldn’t decide if the MC should end up with A or N. I’ll be real though, I think A was the canon choice, because N has major “second lead syndrome” vibes as the K-Drama enjoyers say.

Because this series was originally thought of back in the early-mid 2010s if I’m not mistaken. Back then, from what I remember, that was kind of the standard for YA love interests (and, let’s be real, Wayhaven is absolutely a YA series that just happens to be able to include sex scenes because it’s IF and not a traditional book). It’s still a fairly common trope in the “Romantasy” genre these days, from what I can tell.

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Just got myself caught up with the demo.

Hiding because it's longish and incase anything is considered spoilery

I’m on the Adam route for my main save. I’ve wanted to switch to someone else so many times but I’m the type that I have to see it through, no matter how frustrating.

And tbh I could handle most of what A throws our way if we had the options to be more pissed off, to be more snarky or petty with them. More importantly, if my MC was able to have dates or flirtations with other fellas, to show Adam that she’s not gonna hang about, and that if he won’t step up others certainly will. That would even make the long, dragged out, whiplash romance bearable. I’m happy to stay on A’s route and see it through to th bitter end, but being able to return some of the hurt A causes us would feel so much better. Because right now both us and A are in turmoil, but A is the only one causing it. Their pain is self inflicted, and we have to endure and simper and giggle for scraps of attention which makes me want to throw their camomile tea in their face or take all my attention away from them too.
It’s too one sided to be enjoyable, especially when there is nothing else but the romance. Give me a proper case with investigations and clues to keep me occupied while ignoring the withholding RO’s.

Also Rebecca. She’s nothing to my MC so obviously I don’t want her being my handler. (Even with a good relationship your mother as your handler might be too much) And yet A has to make a comment about it. I don’t know if being on their route coloured my reading of their comment but it felt like a dig to make me feel like my choice was wrong or to guilt me, and it annoyed me.

The more Rebecca is pushed on me the more I despise her. I’m not even interested in knowing more about Rook because it would mean interacting with her. And yet she always makes an appearance, it feels like your choices (cos there have been multiple when it comes to her) are ignored. It’s a bit suffocating. I said No Rebecca, go and flirt with the mayor.

I tried the villain route, and must say going from A to Li-Sar was jarring. I’m not sure about it yet, it feels a bit pantomimey, but I am interested in what could happen more with this new power, and what this union Sparky wants between us would mean. I definitely want to see more before I make up my mind.

But why is A so different as a bestie? I switched to no romance route because I was frustrated with A and then get a version of Bullseye’s “look at what you could have won” with A on it. I’m beginning to think the MC’s power is a virus that turns anyone that loves them into mustard.

I do wish I had more positive things to say but even though the demo is a few chapters in now it doesn’t feel like much has actually went on. The lack of romance and Rebecca stuff is old hat by now so they’re not really book 4 specific issues but there just wasn’t a whole lot else in these chapters to think or talk about. Hopefully the next update will have more because I did really enjoy book 1, and there have been parts of 2 & 3 that I enjoyed too.

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