Vendetta: Rise of a Gangster - Resumed

@shoelip She grew up in a time when women didn’t have a whole lot of options. Rich girls went to “finishing schools” and then got married. If you were lucky enough to be a rich heiress, you could become a philantropist or a patron of the arts. Middle-class girls just got married. And poor girls either got married or *gasp* got knocked up, and then went to work in sweatshops because they either didn’t have husbands, or their husbands were disabled or didn’t make enough. And no girl from a good family wanted to spend her life slaving away like a prisoner in a sweat shop.

I find Carina sweet, and her creative ideas a real asset to your poolroom business, but if she’s not your type, there are other less prudish options for love interests. Monique the curvy redhead is wild, fun, easy-going and always up for everything, while Lucinda the stunning long-legged blond dancer who knew your sister reminds me of a beautiful, but dangerous tigress. She’s a better shot with a gun than your character is.

Hey, so if you start some stuff in bootlegging, will we lose it because of the end to prohibition?

@P_Tigras, I’m actually no less upset about the fact that many people are forced by their circumstances to take jobs that kill them. But if Corwin the miner’s story showed up in ChoiceScript, I’m guessing that neither author nor readers would downplay the awfulness of Corwin having to choose between sacrificing his own life or his family members’, or justify the system that forced his choice. So I (hopefully) wouldn’t have to complain.

With rape, on the other hand – non-consensual sex – we have all these justifying male narratives floating around in our culture that say, “It’s not that big a deal.” And boy, have those been flying around this thread since we started this conversation. Carina’s a prostitute, so it’s automatically consensual. It’s not like she was killed. Unless she thinks sex is special, it’s shouldn’t be such a problem. Not much worse than a visit to the dentist.

Guys, this really isn’t about puritanical views on prostitution or sex. It doesn’t matter whether Carina hoped to be a virgin bride or just wanted to sleep with the 15 people she was actually attracted to – I’m saying that if she’s an unwilling prostitute, forced into it as the only alternative to the likely death of a family member, it’s non-consensual sex. And regardless of whether someone believes that “sex needs to be special” in one sense or another, non-consensual sex is a violation that no one gets over easily.

I repeat, I’m not expressing a view of all prostitutes as victims or all poor people as lacking choice. I’m suggesting that some prostitutes are forced into the role by their circumstances; that Carina’s character fits that mold; and that that makes sex with her a morally awful violation.

As for the long, lingering kiss, that’s so inconsistent with every single other thing @Vendetta’s written about the character that I can’t help believing it’s an error – inadvertently giving all the bathhouse attendants (even the traumatized one) an identical reaction to getting a big tip. If it’s not an error, I’d have to question his realism.

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@Havenstone I haven’t read the entire thread, which is quite long. So my stance isn’t based on all the reader responses so much as the story itself as it’s currently written. Do you feel the author has downplayed the awfulness of Carina’s situation, or just that some of readers have?

Given that most fantasy authors -and- most fantasy readers are women these days, the woman as sex object or victim fantasy would no longer be so common were it not for the fact that it’s a secret fantasy that many women have as well. It’s because women themselves vary so widely in their tastes, and that a very large percentage of them enjoy such fantasies, that they’re still popular. Just look at the spectacular success of 50 Shades of Grey among women. So it isn’t fair to blame such depictions in fiction on men alone.

Carina made a difficult choice. I’m not going to cheapen her hard decision by calling it rape. She consented when she applied for work at that brothel. They didn’t kidnap her. Even so, had she pleaded with the protagonist not to have sex with her or otherwise told him to stop, that would certainly have shifted my opinion in the other direction. Instead she only asked that he not reveal her less than eager behavior to her employer. Rescuing her and giving her a job is clearly the most noble option. Aside from that, while not having sex with her may be the moral view to you personally, it doesn’t improve her situation or provide her any new options. She still becomes a prostitute. She just has her first time with someone else.

I agree that the long, lingering kiss was out of character for her. Having her curl up in a ball and cry over her lost purity, or if the protagonist were highly gentle, hugging him for making her first time more pleasant than she feared it would be, would have been more realistic. Given how much importance Carina placed on her own virginity, I’m inclined to see the former as being more true to her character.

@P_Tigras, Vendetta has said that while reasonable people can differ, he’d personally consider it a rape. No, I don’t think he’s tried to downplay the awfulness of the choice, though as I suggested above, his understandable decision to be terse about the aftermath (to avoid titillation) has the inadvertent effect of making the choice seem consequence-free. That does, unfortunately, downplay the awfulness – we don’t see the impact of our choice on Carina.

The reader responses have generally gone much further in downplaying the significance of the choice. For you and Shoelip, the denial of rape seems to hang on the idea that consent can’t be invalidated by anything short of physical coercion. You’ve made a few other points, but I’m not sure that many of them are ultimately relevant. Here’s what I mean by that:

Imagine Carina had been kidnapped, and hold everything else in the story equal – visibly terrified, she bursts out crying with her first customer, confesses that the only reason she’s there is that she was abducted at gunpoint, and pleads with him not to tell her boss she complained, because she’s frightened of the consequences. Would any of the following responses make it remotely OK (i.e. not rape) for the customer to sleep with her?

“Well, you haven’t outright said, ‘Please don’t have sex with me’.”

“Some other people have to take jobs that actually kill them, you know.”

“For many individuals, sex work is an enriching, empowering, enjoyable job.”

“I’ll bet you’ll look back on this as no worse than a visit to the dentist.”

“If it’s not me, honey, it’s going to be someone else.”

If we agree that none of those points would be relevant in a situation of physical duress, then we can cut to where I think we actually disagree. I’m suggesting that under some readily imaginable circumstances like having to choose between selling sex and the death of a family member, the choice would also be made under duress, which negates consent. Economic duress and duress of circumstances are well-established legal and moral concepts; a gun to the head is not the only thing that counts as coercion. And while we aren’t given all the details of Carina’s story, she sure acts and looks like someone under duress, who’s reduced to her very last resort. For the protagonist of Vendetta’s game to assume otherwise, given the information he’s got, would be morally reckless.

People can still have dignity when making a choice under duress; I agree with you that there’s a nobility in Carina’s sacrifice to support her family. But I don’t agree that her sacrifice is “cheapened” by recognising that she’s engaged in non-consensual sex.

Finally, however: good point that rape fantasies are not limited to perpetrator fantasies, or to one sex. My reference to “male narratives” that justify rape was unduly sex-specific – sorry, that was sloppy of me.

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If her only dream in life was to be a virgin bride then there’s really no excuse for choosing a job she KNEW would make that dream an impossibility. I never said that the situation wasn’t wrong and awful. In fact I’ve said it was, multiple times. But it’s not rape. And I really wish people would stop trying to toss that word until it becomes meaningless.

And the fact of the matter is, that a male in this situation would be viewed with revulsion and derision rather than pity because men are expected to avoid humiliating themselves in this way no matter the cost whereas for women apparently have no self respect or something.

No excuse – except possibly that the only alternative to sacrificing her dreams was sacrificing her family. Are you really so committed to the 100% impossibility of that scenario that you can’t feel any compassion for the character at all?

From what you’ve said elsewhere, I can believe that within the social circles you live in, traditional gender roles are so strong that people might not be able to feel compassion for a man who’s been forced into prostitution under duress of circumstances (and would be gratuitously insulting to women who faced the same dilemma). But that isn’t true everywhere – it’s not “the” fact of the matter.

Somehow I think we should switch the topic of conversation here.

@Bikkje – if it weren’t about the specifics of Vendetta’s game, I’d have moved it off-thread a long time ago. But it’s on topic, and has stayed polite and respectful… and so, at the risk of being flip, I’ll echo your own advice: if you don’t like it, don’t read it.

It’s got nothing to do with compassion. Of course I feel compassion for her. I avoided picking her for the first several times I played because it seemed kind of creepy to want to have sex with her, then when I finally got around to picking her I immediately grabbed her arm in one hand, my gun in the other, and waved it at anyone who got between us and the door. And I’ve done that every single time since for some reason. No that is not a sexual innuendo.

My problem is with your careless use of the word “rape” like it means whatever you want it to. Rape has a specific meaning, but just like any other word if you use it for whatever you want it’ll become meaningless. Like “gay”. The difference between your use and say, people using it as a joke to refer to getting beaten badly in a game, is that you’re being completely serious and seem to think there’s no difference between your use and it’s actual meaning.

Havenstone and Shoelip, with all due respect, I feel this probably deserves to be in the gender power thread. I feel this would allow for you to debate, while not clogging this thread with a (while important) long debate that seems to go off topic, only moving back to the topic as an example. Thank you for (at least I assume) looking at my thought of the future of this important debate, which will be revisited in many other games.

@Person It’s on topic enough, it’s fine where it is.

@Shoelip, I appreciate that as a reader, you prefer rescuing Carina to sleeping with her. At the same time, several of your comments in this thread show real incomprehension of what the character’s situation would feel like from the inside. “There’s really no excuse for choosing a job” that involves sacrificing a major dream. Women who choose prostitution “apparently have no self-respect or something.” Like I said earlier, you’re very committed to the idea that no one can be ever forced into prostitution by their circumstances. I’m just pointing out that that stance is causing you to say some strikingly uncompassionate things about the character.

I agree with you that it’s important to not throw “rape” around loosely, or let it mean whatever we want to. Rape does have a specific meaning – non-consensual sex – and I think we’re both operating from that definition. Where we differ is on the limits of consent – in particular, whether someone who clearly does not want to have sex but is forced into it by their circumstances can be said to have meaningfully consented. I don’t think our disagreement on this point is in danger of making the whole idea of rape dissolve into meaninglessness.

@Person, I’m sorry that you’re frustrated by this discussion. And it’s a good point that it’s likely to be revisited in one form or another in other games. But the discussion is still really about the specific situation Vendetta’s written, more than the general issue.

Well, I keep saying she wasn’t forced because she had a choice, you keep saying she was forced because she didn’t have a choice… So this argument is going nowhere.

@Havenstone Unfortunately I haven’t played the original, and it sounds like that was much more obviously a rape. Given your point that the author himself considers it a rape, and that at least in my view, it doesn’t currently read that way, I agree that the author appears to have gone overboard in his effort to water the scene down.

Let’s take sex out of the picture for the moment since we human beings make too big a deal about it. You’ve agreed that prostitution isn’t inherently evil or automatically degrading to women. You’ve also agreed that sex doesn’t have to be special. That means women are free to use sex to advance their own interests if they choose, just like any other resource they may have at their disposal. Do you not agree? So instead of sex, let’s assume Carina for a moment offers a different resource…

Let’s say she owns a house, a house that her great-grandfather built, and in which all the succeeding generations of her family have lived, including herself. She grew up in that house, loves it beyond belief, and always imagined that she’d live her entire life in it, only to eventually pass it on to her little girl when she herself passes away. Nevertheless the Civil War has destroyed her family’s fortune, and her daughter is very sick and needs an operation. So as much as she hates the very thought of it, she’s placed her family home up for sale. Not only that, she needs to sell it quick to save her daughter, so she’s offering it for less than half of what it’s worth so it will sell quickly.

You just happen to be looking for a house, and this house is a dream come true. It’s beautiful and clearly lovingly maintained by its owner. It’s also available at a price that is a steal. You’re ready to sign on the dotted line even before you meet the owner. Yet when you arrive at the settlement, you find her fearful and crying. She clearly does not wish to sell her beautiful, family home.

Feeling not entirely comfortable with the situation, you ask her why she’s crying. She replies that she loves that home beyond reason, and only her little girl’s life is more important to her. She needs money to save her daughter, and she has no other way to get her hands on the money she needs. She can’t even get a loan from a bank given the current chaos in the deep South. So she feels she has no choice but to sell it.

You’re no rich gangster, just a moderately well-off country doctor. You have no high-paying job to offer her. What do you do?

  1. Do you give her several years of your salary as a gift so she doesn’t have to sell her family home, realizing as you do so that as a result you will need to wait several more years to buy your own home, making your fiance extremely angry with you?
  2. Do you walk away from the deal because you feel bad about it, even though you know that if you don’t buy the home someone else very quickly will?
  3. Do you buy the house anyway from a woman clearly under economic duress, but at fair market value to ease your own conscience?
  4. Do you take the deal as it is from this poor suffering woman who is clearly selling under economic duress?

While you might personally be different, most people would jump on (4) and pat themselves on the back for getting an amazing deal. Some of them might feel a momentary twinge in their conscience, but make the deal any way, reasoning that if they didn’t buy it someone else would. And this wouldn’t be the least bit controversial in our present-day society because no sex is involved in the transaction.

BTW, while laws may vary depending on the jurisdiction, last I had heard, financial contracts were binding, and that needing the money for a life-saving operation by itself doesn’t meet the bar for economic duress, legally speaking. For such an assertion to be upheld one party needs to pressure the other into the contract in some manner (eg. kidnapping). An act of God or Nature applying the pressure generally doesn’t count. I’m no lawyer, but that’s my understanding of the subject.

@Vendetta,
Have you fully implemented Heat and more of Chapter 3 into the online demo?

The demo appears to have suddenly disappeared.

WHAT???

It’s gone for me to.

just tried it and the page says that it’s not found