You make a good point. Most of my MCs would put themselves down as well if it came to it. The two that offered to go with Murphy to save UB had planned on just that–either find a way to break free from Murphy or find a way to off themselves so Murphy couldn’t use them. Both were more than willing to die for the team’s safety, especially after Murphy had offed the other team before.
So yeah, I get what you’re saying. I just pictured if the situations were flipped–if Adam were captured and could be used and it was Nyx (A) left to either kill him to keep Bad Guy from having him and taking over the world, I don’t think Nyx could do it before exhausting every other possible solution first. I know damn well Dezh wouldn’t do it, no matter what–she’d let the world burn to save Mason (or, really, any of UB, because once she cares about them, that’s that).
If the consequences were clear, I think that’s how it would go down, but if there was any sort of doubt about whether it was best course of action, I think they would all get in A’s way. It’s just so hard to imagine F and N just letting it happen. I know that’s what was implied in the ask but I still think that’s only for an absolutely no other option scenario.
Or maybe I just struggle to imagine someone who was as physically and emotionally distraught as N after the MC was taken by Murphy would be willing to give up on the MC so easily.
Plus I don’t think any of my detectives would be willing to give up their RO if the situation was reversed. They’d find another solution or die trying.
How would everyone else’s detectives react in that scenario?
After a while, your brain will basically just stop feeling pain–pain is quite literally all in your head. That’s why torturers switch up how and when they torture their subjects. So, scientifically after awhile, your brain would just say, “okay, you’re fine.” However, Sera has handwaved science in the past for the sake of story-telling. She uses science sometimes, but not always.
I wonder if that will be explored later. I remember there being an ask about it, but Sera was hesitant to answer. Personally, I wonder if it has to do with intent–or even the word choice. They each gave her a command. A said, “steady yourself,” N told her to calm down so that she could answer questions, M told her the similar. Their orders to her were just to be calm for the duration of the questions. F told her, “don’t think about it.” I can tell you that not thinking about the death of a loved one is probably the only way not to break down so soon after learning of their death.
As for intent, I don’t think M really cared once they got the information from her. A and N only used their pheromones as far as they had to, and I think that’s related to ethical concerns/Agency policy–N does say “we avoid using pheromones” on missions. When N says that though, F scoffs. F seems a lot looser on Agency rules in general, and there’s a cultural difference too. They might not see the use of pheromones as an invasion of privacy. So F’s intent was for the effect to continue.
I would say magic would keep it effective so that it doesn’t wear off for the prisoner.
I don’t think science has to be part of this. Sometimes, even when science tells us differently, in a universe where magic is utilized, it can do things that we deem impossible—like keep someone locked in a recurring nightmare until released no matter the length of time.
My MCs wouldn’t. They’re pretty selfish like that. And if A would try to kill them my MC would look at A with teary eyes and whisper “why?” before dying because they did not want to die at all…
Also, am i the only one put off by N choosing the world over MC? To all the self-sacrificing, martyr of a MC, i get it. But are there any MCs who want to live? Most of my MCs wouldn’t care if the world burned to ashes as long as they could live with their RO. I know it’s selfish, but most of my MCs are selfish and want to live.
The second N would have picked the world over MC, some of my MCs would be there like “No, please! I’m scared! I don’t want to die! Please!” And that’s when they’d die, leaving N permanently scarred which could be considered evil, but N literally killed MC so…
One of the MCs I retired, mostly because imagining her as a detective was just … very hard … would 100% not have sacrificed herself under any circumstances for much of anything except quite specifically someone she loved. Of the four I currently have, one is self-sacrificing, one’s hyper-logical “good of the many”, one would do it if there were no other option because he’d consider being trapped with Murphy to be torture, but it would fundamentally be a selfish decision, not a self-sacrificing one, and one came to terms with her inevitable death a looooooooong time ago, and she’d probably do it out of spite.
True, true, “it’s magic” would solve the logic of it. I guess I just found it interesting enough as a thought, and I need supernatural science in my life.
Also, I’m grasping at straws here, I really hated that imprisonment method and after replaying the game today, I just really need to poke holes in it. for some reason it just leaves me horrified every time I read about it (let me clarify, I hate it in a philosophical capacity and it’s ambiguous ethic? I guess? Not the fact that it was in the game, actually it makes for an amazing debate on the eternal question “does the end justify the means” and it’s always good to have little dark spots to keep one on their toes)
I have a love hate relationship with that answer. I respect N for choosing the lives of so many people. But at the same time… that’s the love of your life. We know that none of the vampires believe in religion or the afterlife so… I don’t know how to feel about it. I would just find that answer unacceptable. The only way I think I could accept it would be a ‘take me with them’ scenario. So at least we could go together.
The ask about N breaking after such a scenario also hurts. I like that the decision would be that devastating for them but then why do it. What’s the point of having a world if you can’t enjoy it with the one you love?
For this, I bring something else to add to the philosophy. Should humans have a saying in the justice of supernaturals? This punishment was decided and created by supernaturals to punish their own kind, would it be appropriate for us, humans, to get in their way? To step in there and say, no, this is not how you are going to make things from now on.
It’s a very hard situation to be in. However, there are times we have to sacrifice something for the greater good. That is what life is all about. My MCs don’t 100% agree with the method that the Agency do to those rogue supernaturals but they still think it is a necessary evil.
I would like to quote Black Panther for this.
It is hard for a good man to be a king.
In short if you make the calls or even if you are just a civilian, you just don’t think of yourself or your family only, you have think of others as well who will get affected by your actions.
Well, unless ethics are stickly applied to humans, then it should be a matter of discussion I suppose.
Personally I view it as psychological violence from one sentient being on another. And even when I try the less emotional view of this, it’s ultimately not even practical keeping them in that state. From what Rebbeca (is that the spelling? I’m struggling with english tonight) said, she nevel implies that it’s purpose is to eventually reform them into the society they’ve stumbled upon, so there’s no possibility for the prisoners to have a life at some point. So instead we have constant torture? I mean, I’ll agree with mc and super mom that, if there’s no practical point to this, maybe killing them woul’ve been kinder.
But then you can’t just kill another living creature, can you, that is also cruel.
I know it’s not an easy decision to make, you can’t say 100% that it’s right or wrong. And allowing them to roam free or relocating is obviously off the table, so the Agency has few and fewer still moves left.
I will say that personally, I don’t like the method, but then again in this world I would probably be the nutjob that tried to make friends with the unknown creature and got eaten in the process, so…
I LOVE moral grey areas like this in games, I admit I’m more emotionally invested in this than I should.
I just hope Sera wouldn’t plan too much angst in relation to the Agency vs the UB feelings. There were assurances though that Sera will not go to government agency conspiracy route so there’s hope, right?
Their personal interactions are so warm, I too hope we get to see more!
But I’m so scared of F commenting on anything concerning a M or A romance, he’d be the best worst wingman. I love my vamp bestie I swear.
@resuri08Awww shucks, you can’t just say nice things out of the blue, I wasn’t prepared!
So that’s the real difference between Human Born and Natural Vampires. Natural Vampires feed on blood AND feelings.
I’m also looking forward to seeing romance scenes from the RO’s eyes. I can’t really think of a lot of games that do that but it makes UB feel more real and like they have an investment in the romance as much as we do. I love that
If by “scared” you mean “excited because it’s gonna be amazing” then I totally agree!
Wolfe, who is my MC who’s with Nate, isn’t put off. She isn’t surprised, either. Granted, she’s one of the ones who would happily sacrifice herself for the team (not so much the world), so that likely plays into it. It kinda makes sense that the more intense ones–M & A–would be the ones who are willing to let the world burn for their LIs.
That said, in your scenario, I don’t think N would be able to stand it if the MC was begging for their lives and N let them die for the greater good. It’d likely haunt N forever.
Killing a murderer–specifically one that has committed repeated atrocities like the acid spitter–is not “cruel” but is, rather, just. As you said, there appears to be no chance for rehabilitation. It is just endless torture for the sake of immobilizing a threat to the rest of the world.
If people want to discuss what’s for the greater good, then all aspects must be examined. What the Agency does removes the threat, but it also costs a great deal of money and resources to exact the punishment. Assuming an extended lifespan for most supernaturals means that the torture could go on for basically ever, until the prisoners die of old age (assuming they eventually die from such a thing) or they just rot from now on. Ignoring the fact that doing such a thing to another being is flat out sick, it is a ridiculous waste of resources that could be diverted to other areas.
I mean, I get that a lot of people prefer to believe there is no just cause for killing anyone, but justice isn’t about what makes people comfortable, it’s about what’s right. Never-ending torture in the name of “well at least we don’t kill them!” is cowardly and, ultimately, selfish. Throw in the tiny chance that the prisoners can escape and now the Agency is personally responsible for whoever else gets murdered or injured by the escapees, since they could’ve ensured those prisoners would never harm anyone again had they the balls to face their responsibility they took upon themselves.
That said, I’m not interested in a debate on this, so anyone jumping in to argue against me will be wasting their efforts, as I will not change my mind on this. I simply wished to offer a different POV for those who feel squeamish over the discussion of ending the lives of these prisoners as opposed to torturing them for eternity. It would be akin to capturing a rabid animal and, rather than putting it down (and thereby ending the threat it presents to society and the pain it is in from the disease), choosing to tie it down, keep it alive, and torture it until it either died from the torture or natural causes. It’s not right.
On to a more pleasant topic…
I really look forward to this as well. I just hope N doesn’t screw it up by scaring off M from the MC.
I could see F going one of two ways: either F helps the MC by prodding M or A into realizing/admitting/not avoiding their feelings or F will flub it so badly that M and A will take even longer for the MC to get anywhere with them. So I’m a little scared, too, lol.
Personally, I lean toward F becoming the MC’s biggest ally in a romance with M or A. F knows both of them well enough to understand how to push them along without them realizing it. Even better, given how touchy-feely F is, I could see them egging it on, too, lol.