The scenario with A above makes me wonder what would’ve happened if A had actually tried to go through with it or if they did in the future. How would RO react? Especially interesting for N considering they are best friends. Would N get in A’s way?
Me too. Maybe there’s a slow acting DMB that would cause UB to be bedridden. This is seriously one of my favorite tropes.
On the topic of the Agency’s way of dealing with rogue supernaturals, I’ve been thinking (bear with me, it was a slow process):
So the way the mind works (or so I’ve read) is that, after a certain amount of stress (be it from intense anger, fear or other negative emotions) being put upon it, it will fall into apathy. So I’ve been thinking, how effective do you think this “punishment” is long-term?
Since Sera has said most supernaturals live unnaturally long, how possible would it be for the whole “subject you to your worst fear” thing to eventually just…not work well enough, for their minds to go “enough is enough” and either shut down or force them to try and break out, because eventually they figure there’s nothing worse that can be done to them?
I need thoughts and maybe science on the topic… (also, tell me if I should blur anything for spoilers, since it’s not something end-game related I haven’t)
I got the feeling that he hasn’t really been around anyone that upset and was really affected by it. I found it interesting that, out of all four of them, Felix was the one able to get Kate calmed down and it lasted once he and the detective left. With the others, N included, as soon as the detective shuts the door, Kate breaks down again. Felix really impressed me with that, and it made me wonder if it’s an ability that’s different with natural vampires or if it’s simply a talent Felix has that he has yet to realize.
Oh lord, if Rebecca dies before she can make peace with the MCs who have bad relationships with her, it would be angst city for those characters!
Here are mine:
Dezh (M): Coco by Chanel (oriental spicy frangrance); naturally she smells slightly like cinnamon
Nyx (A): Cinnabar by Estee Lauder (oriental spicy with fruity notes); natural scent is vanilla-ish
Jax (F): Chloe (powdery, floral) or Polo (yes, it’s for men, but she loves the smell and sometimes wears it herself… she’ll be dousing it all over Felix as soon as she gets the chance so she doesn’t have to wear it anymore!); she has no idea how she smells naturally because she’s always wearing some scent and barring that, smells like her grapefruit bodywash!
Honestly, I wasn’t sure how to take that. It seemed to me that, at that point, he’d put the MC down if need be.
I think A could at that point. Even if A is chosen as the RO, they still say this. Which is disturbing.
Then again, M tells the MC they’ll turn the MC over to Murphy themselves when the MC refuses to leave them. Then M immediately pleads with the MC to go, so I took it as an empty threat (especially since one of the options is for the MC to volunteer to go with Murphy if he’ll let his/her friends go, and M isn’t having it). But A seems more serious at that point you guys are talking about (and A doesn’t go for it if the MC offers to go with Murphy to save the team either).
Interestingly, if the MC offers that with F or N, their responses are less… intense. F is like “wish you had told me that first!” and N is just as 'huh" as F. M and A just flat out get mad and won’t have it.
The two out of here I’d love to see the most are Felix and Mason. I so want to see Mason throw temper tantrums, but be stuck getting taken care of by the MC, lol. And Felix? I could so see it: “I’m still sick!” <cough, cough> MC: Felix, you’ve been well for four days now, get up!"
Ilya (A) probably wears the super subtle stuff, and it’s probably more like the scents in her soaps and such than actual perfume. Stuff like “ocean breeze” or “spring rain” or whatever. Tadhg (F) would choose something earthy. It’s probably sandalwood or something, most likely. Auren (M) probably has half a dozen, depending on what he’s doing that day, b/c he’s Mr. Preparedness, but most of the time, he probably just uses something that smells clean and unremarkable. Steph (N), I honestly can’t imagine using any. Maybe some kind of aftershave? If so, he definitely doesn’t pay attention to what it smells like, as long as it’s not pungent, just buys whatever’s cheap.
While I agree they could, I actually don’t find it disturbing. We see what Murphy is capable of with just a tiny amount of it. In the hands of someone even more powerful, or with access to all of it, what more could be done? Yeah, it’s an ugly thought, but it might also be a necessary one. To fly my little Star Trek flag, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. If it absolutely came down to it? Yeah, do what’s necessary. Then again, most of my MCs would put themselves down if it absolutely came down to it, so…
You make a good point. Most of my MCs would put themselves down as well if it came to it. The two that offered to go with Murphy to save UB had planned on just that–either find a way to break free from Murphy or find a way to off themselves so Murphy couldn’t use them. Both were more than willing to die for the team’s safety, especially after Murphy had offed the other team before.
So yeah, I get what you’re saying. I just pictured if the situations were flipped–if Adam were captured and could be used and it was Nyx (A) left to either kill him to keep Bad Guy from having him and taking over the world, I don’t think Nyx could do it before exhausting every other possible solution first. I know damn well Dezh wouldn’t do it, no matter what–she’d let the world burn to save Mason (or, really, any of UB, because once she cares about them, that’s that).
If the consequences were clear, I think that’s how it would go down, but if there was any sort of doubt about whether it was best course of action, I think they would all get in A’s way. It’s just so hard to imagine F and N just letting it happen. I know that’s what was implied in the ask but I still think that’s only for an absolutely no other option scenario.
Or maybe I just struggle to imagine someone who was as physically and emotionally distraught as N after the MC was taken by Murphy would be willing to give up on the MC so easily.
Plus I don’t think any of my detectives would be willing to give up their RO if the situation was reversed. They’d find another solution or die trying.
How would everyone else’s detectives react in that scenario?
After a while, your brain will basically just stop feeling pain–pain is quite literally all in your head. That’s why torturers switch up how and when they torture their subjects. So, scientifically after awhile, your brain would just say, “okay, you’re fine.” However, Sera has handwaved science in the past for the sake of story-telling. She uses science sometimes, but not always.
I wonder if that will be explored later. I remember there being an ask about it, but Sera was hesitant to answer. Personally, I wonder if it has to do with intent–or even the word choice. They each gave her a command. A said, “steady yourself,” N told her to calm down so that she could answer questions, M told her the similar. Their orders to her were just to be calm for the duration of the questions. F told her, “don’t think about it.” I can tell you that not thinking about the death of a loved one is probably the only way not to break down so soon after learning of their death.
As for intent, I don’t think M really cared once they got the information from her. A and N only used their pheromones as far as they had to, and I think that’s related to ethical concerns/Agency policy–N does say “we avoid using pheromones” on missions. When N says that though, F scoffs. F seems a lot looser on Agency rules in general, and there’s a cultural difference too. They might not see the use of pheromones as an invasion of privacy. So F’s intent was for the effect to continue.
I would say magic would keep it effective so that it doesn’t wear off for the prisoner.
I don’t think science has to be part of this. Sometimes, even when science tells us differently, in a universe where magic is utilized, it can do things that we deem impossible—like keep someone locked in a recurring nightmare until released no matter the length of time.
My MCs wouldn’t. They’re pretty selfish like that. And if A would try to kill them my MC would look at A with teary eyes and whisper “why?” before dying because they did not want to die at all…
Also, am i the only one put off by N choosing the world over MC? To all the self-sacrificing, martyr of a MC, i get it. But are there any MCs who want to live? Most of my MCs wouldn’t care if the world burned to ashes as long as they could live with their RO. I know it’s selfish, but most of my MCs are selfish and want to live.
The second N would have picked the world over MC, some of my MCs would be there like “No, please! I’m scared! I don’t want to die! Please!” And that’s when they’d die, leaving N permanently scarred which could be considered evil, but N literally killed MC so…
One of the MCs I retired, mostly because imagining her as a detective was just … very hard … would 100% not have sacrificed herself under any circumstances for much of anything except quite specifically someone she loved. Of the four I currently have, one is self-sacrificing, one’s hyper-logical “good of the many”, one would do it if there were no other option because he’d consider being trapped with Murphy to be torture, but it would fundamentally be a selfish decision, not a self-sacrificing one, and one came to terms with her inevitable death a looooooooong time ago, and she’d probably do it out of spite.
True, true, “it’s magic” would solve the logic of it. I guess I just found it interesting enough as a thought, and I need supernatural science in my life.
Also, I’m grasping at straws here, I really hated that imprisonment method and after replaying the game today, I just really need to poke holes in it. for some reason it just leaves me horrified every time I read about it (let me clarify, I hate it in a philosophical capacity and it’s ambiguous ethic? I guess? Not the fact that it was in the game, actually it makes for an amazing debate on the eternal question “does the end justify the means” and it’s always good to have little dark spots to keep one on their toes)
I have a love hate relationship with that answer. I respect N for choosing the lives of so many people. But at the same time… that’s the love of your life. We know that none of the vampires believe in religion or the afterlife so… I don’t know how to feel about it. I would just find that answer unacceptable. The only way I think I could accept it would be a ‘take me with them’ scenario. So at least we could go together.
The ask about N breaking after such a scenario also hurts. I like that the decision would be that devastating for them but then why do it. What’s the point of having a world if you can’t enjoy it with the one you love?
For this, I bring something else to add to the philosophy. Should humans have a saying in the justice of supernaturals? This punishment was decided and created by supernaturals to punish their own kind, would it be appropriate for us, humans, to get in their way? To step in there and say, no, this is not how you are going to make things from now on.
It’s a very hard situation to be in. However, there are times we have to sacrifice something for the greater good. That is what life is all about. My MCs don’t 100% agree with the method that the Agency do to those rogue supernaturals but they still think it is a necessary evil.
I would like to quote Black Panther for this.
It is hard for a good man to be a king.
In short if you make the calls or even if you are just a civilian, you just don’t think of yourself or your family only, you have think of others as well who will get affected by your actions.
Well, unless ethics are stickly applied to humans, then it should be a matter of discussion I suppose.
Personally I view it as psychological violence from one sentient being on another. And even when I try the less emotional view of this, it’s ultimately not even practical keeping them in that state. From what Rebbeca (is that the spelling? I’m struggling with english tonight) said, she nevel implies that it’s purpose is to eventually reform them into the society they’ve stumbled upon, so there’s no possibility for the prisoners to have a life at some point. So instead we have constant torture? I mean, I’ll agree with mc and super mom that, if there’s no practical point to this, maybe killing them woul’ve been kinder.
But then you can’t just kill another living creature, can you, that is also cruel.
I know it’s not an easy decision to make, you can’t say 100% that it’s right or wrong. And allowing them to roam free or relocating is obviously off the table, so the Agency has few and fewer still moves left.
I will say that personally, I don’t like the method, but then again in this world I would probably be the nutjob that tried to make friends with the unknown creature and got eaten in the process, so…
I LOVE moral grey areas like this in games, I admit I’m more emotionally invested in this than I should.
I just hope Sera wouldn’t plan too much angst in relation to the Agency vs the UB feelings. There were assurances though that Sera will not go to government agency conspiracy route so there’s hope, right?