I almost never play games with contemporary settings, so I can say for sure that I’ve never encountered a romance that “acknowledged” my PC’s gender in a way that didn’t feel belittling. Opportunities to play agender human characters are vanishingly rare. Given the option, I will prefer to play female. That doesn’t mean I want to hear the phrase “pretty girl” fifty times per game. Or have my adult female PC referred to as a girl, at all.
shrug Maybe I was just unlucky? Maybe there are a lot of respectful ways to reference a female PC’s gender that don’t reduce her to a piece of ass.
Calling an adult woman a “girl” is common as muck but it’s not cool.
Try calling an adult male a “boy” and see what kind of reaction you get. Almost all men will take this as an insult.
However I can’t claim any moral superiority on the matter as I’ve called women “birds” and “girls” in the past and I really couldn’t understand what was wrong with it for the longest time.
Not only is doing better the right thing to do it makes for more compelling and interesting stories.
But I think there’s also the chilling factor that a lot of game developers are worried about getting lots of one star reviews on the App Stores if their games are seen as “too PC”. A deluge of 1 star reviews from that crowd can really hinder a games sales.
I’m trying to thread this needle via a feminism by stealth approach. Because I’m a big hairy feminist myself but I also don’t want to trigger a hostile reaction from gamers who are anti feminism.
I don’t think I ever have called someone man or woman as my goto unless I’m going for a joke or in a formal setting (well I guess when I was a meek overly formal child I called everyone man/woman). Guy/gal and then if they’re shorter/younger than me and I feel like teasing them boy/girl. Man/woman has always sounded weird to me, it sounds formal to me and that’s generally something I don’t do (if I feel like I have to be formal then you’re probably not someone I want to talk to) The only times I’ve seen people have a problem with me doing it was in regards to other people, who were usually elderly. Calling men “my son/boy” seems pretty common enough anyways.
I personally cringe everytime someone call me ‘Girl’ . Or ‘Dude’…for that matter .
I hear it enough in MMO…‘Dude come on!’ …I started using ‘She’ by default lol let’s just say the result were priceless
cose…everyone assume everyone is a dude…yeah whatever…
I mean , if I go around and calling guys ‘Boy’ …they probably be offended , especially the one with beard lol …so for me , Girl is a term used for someone who is young…maybe teenager ?
why man get to be proud of their manhood…and we womens get painful periods…but still get called ‘Girl’ …
I’ve decided to revive this thread because if we don’t revive old threads people make new threads that then have to get merged or they just don’t see it because it does not show up readily.
Note: targeting this mostly at HG authors. COG has inclusivity requirements that tend to mean these issues don’t come up. I am also a lesbian, so while I’ve got some of the general stuff covered, its going to branch off into lesbian and F/F relationship specifics so I encourage other people to chime in!
Most of these games take place in a fantasy world or alternate reality that contains things like dragons, magic, or otherwise unrealistic content, therefore meaning that we do not need to add in homophobia for “realism”.
Marginalized groups of many sorts are frequently subject to being used as ‘trauma porn’ (yes, this is the real term) for people outside of those groups. In the case of same-sex relationships, this is where straight people only portray same-sex relationships when there is hardship and struggle because it is entertaining for them. At best, this perpetuates the idea that same-sex relationships and representation are only valuable in contexts where it is entertaining for straight people. At worst, this perpetuates the view that same-sex relationships need to be punished.
Assuming you are writing a romance between two characters and not two stereotypes, you can write a same-sex(*) romance the same way you write a straight romance 97% of the time. The majority of differences in how relationship interactions go for same sex couples comes from the fact that we have been discriminated against since forever. I am, of course, going to list a bunch of exceptions to this below, but start here.
(*) Same-sex is being used here to indicate ‘same-gender-identity’ unless otherwise stated.
In an F/F relationship there is no man. In an M/M relationship there is no woman. This is the point. This goes back to my point about writing characters and not stereotypes. If you write a romance between the stereotype of a 1950’s straight couple, then yes you will run into problems trying to make it an LGBT romance but otherwise you’re probably fine.
Mind your anatomy in explicit scenes. (PG explanation) Probably the only time I would recommend stopping and questioning yourself every sentence as a straight person writing an LGBT relationship is when writing explicit scenes. Please stop and think “does this make sense given the anatomy of the two people in this relationship?”
Don’t kill off your only gay character or otherwise your only character in a same-sex relationship. A great solution to this is to not have only one gay character. If you need more info on why this is offensive, please see this article on the Bury Your Gays trope.
“But how do I know if my player character is in a same-sex relationship since this is IF?” When considering “is my writing (overall) sensitive and diverse?” assume the player character is straight. If you are relying on the player character to be the sole representation of same-sex relationships, you are doing representation wrong. (Common sense exceptions apply: if you only have three characters in the whole story, one being the MC and two being the ROs, this rule does not apply. It does, however, apply if you have a rich cast of named NPCs and all of them are straight)
F/F Specific
Honestly, if you’re reading this article because you need it, just don’t touch the words ‘butch’ or ‘femme’. Not all lesbians or people in F/F relationships are ‘butch’ or ‘femme’. These words are not just adjectives talking about aesthetic appearances, they are specific identities that exist because of historical discrimination against lesbians and therefore probably don’t even exist culturally in your world. Bi and Pan women have their own variants of these identities. This is not even an exhaustive list of why you don’t need these words.
Chest-touching. This one was pointed out to me by a bi friend of mine but it is common for women to put hands on a man’s chest in romantic but not explicit settings. As many women have breasts, putting a hand on female-identifying partner’s chest does not read quite the same way.
Are you making a gender-locked lesbian character (probably not applicable to the player character)? Other tropes to avoid: Don’t have a major portion of their backstory be that they were sexually assaulted by a man. Similarly, don’t have a man tell a lesbian he could turn her straight. Don’t have your lesbians try to ‘turn’ straight girls. Don’t put your lesbians in a scene where they are being hit on by men so you can make a whole thing about ‘haha she’s a lesbian’.
I just want a fluffy same sex relationship where they bicker over the grocery list, taking care of the dog, and who always forgets the laundry.
The majority of same sex relationships portrayed in media are full of angst and I’m sick of it. I’m fine if the couple is portrayed as having no problems at all because it’s so sweet and heartwarming.
If there is a conflict portrayed between a same sex couple, then I don’t want it to be about their sexuality. I feel like it’s overdone and reducing the characters to their sexuality and people aren’t just their sexuality.
Just wanted to chime in and say that being a gay male, I agree completely with the main set of points you made, @greendaisy. I also personally feel a lot of resonance with points 6 and 8 and have felt M/M variations of those themes, though they’ve manifested with different words and ideas.
I had been thinking about posting something like this for a while. Hopefully any authors writing WiPs without same-sex relationships will take your post to heart.
I would add to this that there’s no reason whatsoever to add homophobia to a story unless the story is specifically about homophobia (or multiple forms of bigotry). And honestly, I really don’t think that IF is a good place to write about homophobia, unless it’s a game that’s specifically gay-locked. A game that forces gay players to have to wade through homophobia while straight players don’t have to would end up with content that most players either don’t see or (if they do see it) don’t enjoy, meaning that it’s content that probably shouldn’t have been written. (And if somebody does enjoy fighting back against bigotry, they’d probably enjoy it more in a game actually about that.)
I would also say that this even applies to stories set in historical times that were less accepting. For one thing, the exact nature of historical homophobia is often overexaggerated: homosexuality was seen as sinful, but it wasn’t actually illegal (in Britain, at least) until the Protestant Reformation in about 1540 (a lot later than the period that most historical fantasies are basing their settings on). Sure, there were times and places where it was punished, but for the most part, it would have been seen as a private matter between the gay individual and the church. So the “realism” that these stories are based on is often actually false. So, if your story is going to be unrealistic anyway, why not make it unrealistic in a way that LGBTQ+ people can enjoy, too?
I have very conflicted feelings on this, to be honest. I think my summary is that, in a historical or even modern setting, I agree that I’m not interested in reading about gay characters suffering for being gay, because I have enough pain on that front and I don’t want to pile on a bunch more (see also greendaisy’s comments on trauma porn and so forth).
However, when historical or even modern day stories excise the concept of homophobia, that also is very of-putting to me. I’ve heard a lot throughout my life that homophobia is a minor issue at best, to the point that some of my supposed “allies” considered it to be bordering on mythological, an issue long past that I have no right to feel any pain over – same thing for gender and race, though I won’t speak to those since I haven’t suffered discrimination on those fronts. Though I will admit that attitude from others has, uh, changed in the last couple years as it’s been proven more definitively wrong, it’s still something that I carry and has shaped a lot of my attitude on this issue as a whole.
Anyway, what I’m saying is I agree that stories should not include specific instances of homophobia just to have them for “realism”. But I also think that there needs to be a nod to the idea that gay people face or faced discrimination, otherwise it risks coming across as revisionist, as trying to whitewash (straightwash?) history so that the suffering I’ve endured never existed. And I don’t think that’s a healthy way to move on to a future where said suffering exists no longer.
Is the stuff I just said rational? Probably not. Am I speaking for all gay people? Absolutely not, just myself. And again, I wholly agree that I’d rather read a story with no homophobia than a story with pointless homophobia. And I also definitely agree that homophobia and other bigotry has no place in a story set in a world other than our own. I just think that not acknowledging it as a thing that happens, as a thing that continues to happen in the world we currently exist in, is also not ideal.
Example
For a specific positive example of this, there’s a game called Vampyr that came out a couple years back, set in 1920s London. In it, there is a minor pair of NPCs who are a gay couple. Their sexuality and relationship is a significant (but not all-encompassing) aspect of their characterization. The game itself treats their sexuality with respect and dignity, as does the main character if he finds out about it – however, it also acknowledges that they risk facing a lot of discrimination if they come out, and one of the two men has a fair bit of internalized homophobia that he’s struggling with. But the game doesn’t rub our faces in it, either – it’s just an acknowledgement that those are problems they have.
Personally, I think that’s about the ideal point to have it at. It acknowledges that they have a struggle that straight people don’t, it acknowledges that some gay people have a very complicated relationship with their own sexuality while others don’t…but it also doesn’t turn either character into an angstfest for our voyeuristic pleasure.
While I certainly feel that there’s validity to your view, I can also see it from the other way round. While a story with no LGBTQ+ oppression could be read as saying “there’s no homophobia or transphobia, so we don’t need to fix it”, a story which addresses but never makes any effort to really fix it could be read as saying “homophobia and transphobia are fundamental parts of human existence, so we shouldn’t bother trying to fix them”.
I do agree that both kinds of stories are valid, despite this, but I feel that the former lends itself far better to IF than the latter. Speaking for myself, I would far prefer a story that didn’t keep trying to remind me how much some people hate me solely for existing… And, honestly, it’s pretty easy to just make things equal for everyone, while I can imagine it’s a lot harder to present homophobia/transphobia as things that exist without going too far into either trauma porn or bigotry normalisation.
Also, I think I’d probably use “straightwashing” to refer to a historically LGBTQ+ person being presented as cis/straight, rather than just pretending there was no intolerance to begin with. (I guess you could call that “tolerancewashing”? )
Touché. Seriously though, these are some very good points, and I’ll try to remember them as I take in media in the future.
I guess one thing I should have mentioned is that there’s an element of willingness to trust the author’s intentions, and I do admit that in general, I’m more willing to trust an author who writes a story with bigotry removed than a story that includes bigotry for edginess or whatever. And I also admit that I’m particularly stubborn about extending that trust to authors and humans in general so again I’m definitely not speaking for everyone on this. In any case, I appreciate you acknowledging my perspective.
Your point about leaving a nod to the idea of past discrimination, I understand the point you’re trying make but I feel that if there is no discrimination and bigotry in the current setting now or depending on the story ever was, then it probably wouldn’t be all that necessary to draw attention it unless it’s really relevant to the plot. If it’s not executed well it may come off badly, if it’s relevant to the plot then include it (carefully) but I wouldn’t have an off hand comment about it from a character as a way of exposition for example. It probably wouldn’t do it any real justice and wouldn’t really serve a purpose.
Does that make any sense? I’m worried it doesn’t. If this isn’t what you meant I’m sorry for misreading you.
Edit: I’m pretty clueless about it all I’ll add, I suffer from anxiety and I’m not really in contact with anyone else from the LQBTQ+ community, so my thoughts might be a little off on the matter.
I definitely think this is a very interesting point, I suppose where I’m coming from I feel like it is a little “advanced” for the people that are being addressed in this topic because it can be a fine line and it also tends to be something straight authors are not interested in doing.
We still semi-regularly have (HG) WIPs with like one gay RO added as an afterthought or are straight-locked without narrative reason so it is difficult for me to trust a straight author to craft a meaningful historical narrative showcasing homophobia that still has a good ending.
Maybe some ways to exemplify this (and tell me if I’m misunderstanding) without showcasing actual bigotry might be like in a present-day boarding school story your gay character is respected and there are no instances of homophobia BUT they could make a joke about straight people or straight relationships with the RO or a gay friend. Straight people jokes imply that homophobia exists/existed without the character experiencing any directly.
Or maybe they visit a renovated historical speakeasy gay bar which, again, only exist because of previous homophobia, but does not require the characters to experience any. Or, they could flag either by wearing pride flag attire or other known methods of flagging. Again, another practice that exists only because of discrimination faced by the LGBT community.
Of course, there are a lot of settings where this again wouldn’t apply, but it could work in story settings that are essentially present day.
So much good discussion stuff! I know this might sound silly but I really do appreciate how respectful you guys are being with me here, and I hope I’m reciprocating that. I, uh, haven’t experienced much of that IRL, and it means a lot to me.
I think I agree with what you’re saying. I guess it all ultimately depends on the story, the characters, and the characters relevance to the story (and/or the relevance of their sexuality to the story). I agree that if they haven’t experienced bigotry, then obviously there’s no point in mentioning it. And I agree that if they’re minor and the bigotry they may or may not have faced is irrelevant to the story or to their character arc, then it could also probably be safe to not mention bigotry. Is that what you were saying?
This is terribly embarassing to say, but I’m not entirely sure what you mean with your “straight joke” example (I’m gay but also had a very conservative/religious education, so I’m still learning how to talk about this stuff - see also straightwashing, and thank you all for correcting me on that), so I’ll talk about this one instead. I agree that this is a way to acknowledge homophobia without having an onscreen instance of it. However, I also feel that this falls into the same potential issue, suggesting that homophobia was, but homophobia is no more.
The solution?..Uh, I’ll get back to you when I figure it out. Again, I agree and acknowledge that this situation would at least come across as well-intentioned to me. I just think there’s an implication there that rubs me the wrong way, but then again again again, I also see how my personal experience is coloring that. I dunno.
I personally am a sucker for realism, and so I will always prefer for it to be acknowledged in some way when it makes sense to the character’s personality (the RO’s) in question or if the setting is realistic (Ancient times for example). It doesn’t have to be every RO or characters, but some reactions/acknowledgements here and there is more interesting in my opinion.
It makes for a more nuanced story and could make for better replayability for those that like to play male and female in different playthroughs or have many MCs for roleplay stuff.
It might be fun also if there is an acknowledgement of some sort if the player is bi or gay, but that might be too specific and make for some dialog that isn’t that necessary, but I’m personally a fan of those kinds of nuances, so I dunno. Though it can also be really unnatural and kinda cringe if badly added in xd
I also would personality say it also makes for better quality writing/story telling to do so, since it would probably take longer to write for all the different reactions and dialog accordingly, and some be even more ‘‘choice’’ heavy, and more tailored.
Though the consensus so far here seems to be that it’s more appreciated to be the same.
An example of this kind of dialog thing:
So far, the best way I have seen it done is in Fallen Hero (the WIP one) with Herald’s reactions mostly. I made for a great scene and it caught me off guard, in a good way. Herald reacts differently if you are male (though I can’t be sure since I never play as female, but it seems to be different).
Also with Marshal Steel if I recall correctly? Not sure about him.
Credence: Being (prob) gay, whatever that can hold.
Am I speaking for all gay people? Absolutely not, just myself. And again, I wholly agree that I’d rather read a story with no homophobia than a story with pointless homophobia. And I also definitely agree that homophobia and other bigotry has no place in a story set in a world other than our own. I just think that not acknowledging it as a thing that happens, as a thing that continues to happen in the world we currently exist in, is also not ideal.
And, honestly, it’s pretty easy to just make things equal for everyone, while I can imagine it’s a lot harder to present homophobia/transphobia as things that exist without going too far into either trauma porn or bigotry normalisation.
)
Seriously though, these are some very good points, and I’ll try to remember them as I take in media in the future.