Same sex romances

[Eiwynn]

@TacitLiar

I personally am a sucker for realism, and so I will always prefer for it to be acknowledged in some way

“Realism” is subjective and often is nuanced beyond the ability to portray itself in a limited medium, like an IF story.

The best any author can do is to give their audience a glimpse of “reality” as experienced in their story.

The very fact that most Americans, let alone non-Americans do not know what a Boston Marriage is, tells me for a fact that almost everyone has no clue, what “Victorian relationships” were like. I know more about that era of American life than most, yet, even I discover things that change the way I view that subject, with every bit of research I do.

So, whenever I see feedback relying on “realism” I immediately red flag it as questionable, because the simple fact is that one person’s realism is another’s fantasy.

[TacitLiar]

Current objective contextual realism (which I would call realism only though) in accordance to the writer’s portrayal location or the writer’s time setting, to be more precise.
Or like, with class system and things like that. Poor vs working class vs higher class vs rich, etc.
In general settings, like Eastern vs Western current (or not) world

Can be only broad lines too, if older times, since we indeed can’t be 100% sure about everything in Victorian relationships and such, not being in the Era anymore. Though some pointers are kinda out there for generalities.

Also agree, can be a big red flag for sure.
(edit: typos, didn’t write enough)

(edit 2.0:) Realism in the more serious and mature grounded in reality sense)

[ParrotWatcher]

@Eiwynn

The very fact that most Americans, let alone non-Americans do not know what a Boston Marriage is, tells me for a fact that almost everyone has no clue, what “Victorian relationships” were like. I know more about that era of American life than most, yet, even I discover things that change the way I view that subject, with every bit of research I do.

On a similar note, quite a few early and Medieval Christian traditions would have allowed pairs of men to be declared “legal brothers”, and while these were sadly eventually restricted when the church realised why they were so popular, they did last for several centuries (and possibly even until the early 20th century in some places, but I haven’t been able to find out much about that). But of course, nobody really ever talks about them, especially not when discussing “realism” in historical fiction or fantasy.

[Ekaterina]

@TacitLiar

best way I have seen it done is in Fallen Hero (the WIP one) with Herald’s reactions mostly. Herald reacts differently if you are male

One of the reasons why I love the series so much. It’s a reasonably balanced approach to realism vs er… what’s the word? Escapism? And yes, I myself am all for acknowledgement (even if it is not always exclusively positive within a given setting) and playing things out somewhat differently for both characters’ genders and sexualities.

[EvilChani]

@Eiwynn

The very fact that most Americans, let alone non-Americans do not know what a Boston Marriage is, tells me for a fact that almost everyone has no clue, what “Victorian relationships” were like.

Thanks a lot, you just made me do research, which sent me down a rabbit hole for more information when I should be working.

@Eiwynn

“Realism” is subjective and often is nuanced beyond the ability to portray itself in a limited medium, like an IF story.

Agreed. My buddy and I recently finished a novel and one of the people I asked to beta read (who is actually a close friend) refused to continue after the first few chapters because “it’s set in the real world” and he hates realism. I’m not sure what was too real for him–the vampires? The MC with telekinetic and telepathic powers? The indestructible detective? I asked him that and he stated he simply hates anything that even references the “real” world. So yeah, fantasy and reality are totally subjective in fiction.

@The_Lady_Luck

Of course, a RO shouldn’t change personality based on the MC’s.

This is really one of my biggest pet peeves in IF. If a RO is a dominant type, they shouldn’t turn all submissive and uncertain when faced with a dominant personality. That makes no sense. A protective RO isn’t going to completely cease being protective just because the MC is capable and tells them to back off (I’ve told my husband countless times to take his damned shoes off when he comes in the house and, after years, he only manages it about 50% of the time, so telling someone to change behavior that is ingrained in them doesn’t really work).

On the same line, I agree with whoever said female MCs (or gay male MCs) shouldn’t be forced to turn into passive wallflowers. It is entirely possible to have both parties in a relationship be strong/dominant types and to have it work out. I think that’s why it’s important for games that are heavy with the romance to allow for options for the MC to choose how to react in situations rather than forcing them into, as someone else put it, “being the little spoon” simply because they’re female or a gay male.

[ninjablu]

Does anyone else find it much more stressful to write heterosexual relationships than gay ones? The “proper” gender roles in straight relationships are pretty much drilled into us from a very young age, consciously or not, and while many of us are probably actively working on reducing our own biases, it can be very difficult! A lot of times I just find it easier to pretend that both parties are always of the same gender, because, well, stereotypes and things about what the man and the woman should be doing don’t really apply when it’s not a man and a woman in a relationship. It allows me to just focus on the characters’s personalities and their dynamic without having to worry about my inherent bias leaking into my writing.

@EvilChani

On the same line, I agree with whoever said female MCs (or gay male MCs) shouldn’t be forced to turn into passive wallflowers. It is entirely possible to have both parties in a relationship be strong/dominant types and to have it work out. I think that’s why it’s important for games that are heavy with the romance to allow for options for the MC to choose how to react in situations rather than forcing them into, as someone else put it, “being the little spoon” simply because they’re female or a gay male.

This is exactly the kind of thing I don’t want to do. On a rational level, I know there’s no reason why male ROs have to be dominant and female ROs submissive. Except I also know that I’m conditioned to think that way, so if I’m thinking of it as a heterosexual relationship, I’m always checking that my subconscious isn’t making me lean into gender stereotypes. When it’s a gay relationship, there’s no need to worry about them at all, because as I said above, they simply don’t exist anymore.

Note: the above applies mostly to fixed-gender ROs, which is one reason I really appreciate gender-variable ROs and MCs.

[EvilChani]

@ninjablu

Does anyone else find it much more stressful to write heterosexual relationships than gay ones?

Honestly? I used to have more trouble writing gay relationships because I was so afraid of screwing up and getting crucified for it (I still am, really, but I ignore it because I know my characters!). In my head, characters are characters–gay, straight, male, female, whatever. They each have their own personalities, desires, motivations, histories, and, yeah, kinks (where applicable!). So I don’t tend to think of the gay romances any differently than heterosexual ones. Whether that’s the correct way to view it or not is probably subjective.

Still, hetero romances are easier for me to write because it’s “what I know.” Granted, my vision of a romance doesn’t necessarily match what others may envision, but isn’t that true no matter what? The whole “gender role” thing–I was never exposed to that, really. I mean, sure I’ve run into a couple of sexist pigs but, again, people are people. And they get much more reasonable when they realize you won’t put up with their shit and are easy to get along with when they just treat you like they would any other person.

@ninjablu

I’m always checking that my subconscious isn’t making me lean into gender stereotypes.

You probably shouldn’t worry that much. If it’s a game, just give options. Some extremely dominant women want to be dominated in bed (bed, not a relationship). Some dominant men want the same. Some more submissive personalities like feeling like they have power in a relationship and want to switch “roles.” And some people just want to be with someone who is as strong as they view themselves–i.e., an equal. It’s hard to know what anyone really wants unless you ask them. Or are psychic.

But all relationships–friendships, work relationships, romances, and everything in between–are give and take and require work from both (or more) parties. When there are disagreements, a lot of times it can be a ‘live and let live’ solution, but there are some times when a decision must be made. The problem is that a lot of people will view such a case as winning or losing and feel as though they’ve been demeaned or dominated if they don’t get their way instead of just letting it go and realizing that, next time, they may be the one to make the call.

Anyway, I got off on a tangent there, but my point is that, when you’re writing, as long as you’re making characters that are as deep and layered as actual people, it’s probably not conducive to the character development (or the story overall) to try to avoid stereotypes or gender roles at all costs. In the long run, even if there’s something about them that fits into a stereotype or typical gender role, there will be a thousand other things about them that defy those roles–just like real people do.

[Elisa_Marino]

I think roleplaying might help with that. I mean, it could be a little weird to put yourself in the place of several characters and jump from one to another. But it helps to build a dynamic. I mean, even with the supposedly standard, you can have different dynamics dominant-submisive.

I can see how two dominant people who are into sports that start competing with each other and later, when they start dating, keep the competition outsider sports. While other people, while still being dominant might reach agreements and became a team (that compete against others).

I think the key is on the details. Even in “dominant” situations there are variations, from physical, to games and even kinks.

[FenomeN]

maybe something like a sims?