Same sex romances

[poison_mara]

About love triangles people please let people choose to breaking down the relationship when it is offered. I have nothing against pan relationship. But they come from trust, confidence and have to be consensual by all parts. I personally are totally incapable of being in one, I was cheated and hurt so much that the only idea makes me impossible of trust . i would prefer a choice to say Look you could romance whoever but i am out

[Jose_Garcia]

Agreed it’s something the player should initiate and that npcs may or may not be cool with.

[FelxBelt]

Thanks for the clarification!

[Djone1]

@rinari

if an NPC is canonically gay, should an MC of the opposite gender be able to flirt with them and then be rejected, or should only an MC of the same gender have additional options to flirt with them, while an opposite gender MC never “sees” those flirtatious options and can only pursue a platonic relationship?

If we don’t know anything about them and it was a first-time interaction I think being rejected is fine but like @TSSL said if we get to know them it should maybe come up at some point. Take Blade from your game for example who is cannon straight, me as a guy mc, can flirt with him pretty as soon as we meet and what I think would be a good response to that would be a quick “Yeah not into that” and to move on, but if we get to be better friends with him (and don’t flirt) he might mention in passing to you how cute a girl on the street is im not a writer as you can tell im sure you could think of a better way for him to bring it up another idea I had would be to maybe have another character (probably Trouble) mention that Blade only has eyes for the ladies? idk I actually haven’t tried flirting with Blade because I knew it wouldn’t be reciprocated lol and then the same could them be applied to Riel, so like to end this just do it pretty much the same way you would ‘revel’ a character is straight and you should be good Although depending on the story it might not be that simple

[idonotlikeusernames]

@ParrotWatcher

Generally, I feel that the only real differences between a gay and a straight romance would be in the act of sex itself and in how the world views their relationship (including how the characters view it themselves).

This is mostly true, unless you plan to go explicitly into the sex scenes, kinks and smut of course. If you can write straight romances reasonably well you can probably write at least an okay gay romance.

@ParrotWatcher

and in how the world views their relationship (including how the characters view it themselves).

Also how the world views their gender, masculinity, femininity using the culture(s) of the gameworld and weaving it into the romance and the characters themselves greatly enhances the verisimilitude of the game world, which also enhances the romance.
For example one of Bioware’s chief flaws is that they design all these fantasy and sci-fi worlds and then have the characters in them have the moral standards and make them behave as if they were transplanted contemporary Canadians, which detracts from the verisimilitude and all that world-building efforts and is one of my main gripes with Bioware’s style of world-building.

@ParrotWatcher

For the latter: I’d generally suggest steering clear of homophobia (or any other kind of bigotry) unless the story is actually about that kind of bigotry. And, since this is a game which can be played as a heterosexual, you’re probably not writing about homophobia. Certainly don’t include homophobia “just to make it realistic”; I’d far prefer to play an unrealistically gay-friendly story than one which penalises me for playing as myself.

Yep, this is the one concession I’d like that may deviate from my previous point in most of my escapism. Unless you really want to tell a very particular story that absolutely requires it and know what you’re doing.

@poison_mara

and we have always notice how gay character is always put as the weak feminine position and I found it awful and weird for multiple reasons.

Specifically the gay mc you mean. This can be aggravating particularly with bisexual ro’s because of what it implies. Nonetheless there are gay guys who do enjoy those things and we shouldn’t slip into the reverse and condemn that, just avoid the trap of assuming it is the default setting of all gay guys. Ideally allow the mc and their ro to work it out sort of like real people would if you do go there and want to have or mention sex-scenes.

@poison_mara

There are even small playful kirks like caring their hair or giving massages. As I said 2018 not 1818. People sex is not shameful. And we should be not scared by it and the multiple choice in the spectrum

Indeed!

@derekmetaltron

Couldn’t the term ‘same sex relationships’ be really applied to both romantic AND platonic relationships of the same gender?

Yes, you can be lots of (confusing) things and I’ve met at least one homoromantic bisexual guy, for example. Homoromantic asexual also definitely happens, as back during my worst years when I pretty much didn’t have a libido to speak of due to the Celiac’s I used to believe I was this. On the other hand my XoR mc would probably veer into homosexual but (mostly) aromantic territory.
There’s a whole spectrum of of orientations and preferences beyond the vanilla, or as Mara called it “Victorian” and heterosexual “default” of our (popular) culture.

@ParrotWatcher

I’d actually say that for far too many games “same sex relationships” are exclusively platonic.

We can show what is basically straight porn in some 17+ videogames these days, but two guys kissing or even holding hands in public, whoa that’s radical! Or at least that is the unfortunate attitude of much of the mainstream media and nearly all AAA videogame developers.

@ParrotWatcher

Admittedly, it is getting better in other places, too

I’d say it’s still baby steps over here our mainstream TV has moved from gay male characters basically displaying no affection when they’re not in private to holding hands and hugging on occasion. But even kissing is still very rare and the most common male/male sex scene is still the rare (shirtless) kiss followed by the fade to black whereas most straight sex scenes fall at minimum under the category of carefully edited nude shots with weird camera angles if they’re not basically porn. Just to clarify I’m talking about entertainment targeted mainly at adults here, instead of all ages or youth of course.

@obieblu

Are you talking about Hong Kongese cinema? The Mainland just cracked down on LGBT content

Mainland China is going from bad to worse these days.
While I watch it less these days I do remember that with the subtext and even the occasional kiss Hong Kong used to be light years in advance of us poor Western Europeans during the 90’s and early 00’s and Japanese cinema has never shied away from the the copious amounts of double entendre and sexual subtext in some of its male and male relationships and overall they tended to have much more varieties of male characters and relationships and their male actors used to emote better and far more often then ours.

@poison_mara

I will be death before that happens though…

Or a porn director yourself. Who knows you might break new ground there and pioneer a whole new cinema/video genre.

@TSSL

Jealousy and attraction can get mixed up in weird ways. I suppose this could happen with heterosexuals, but I think I’m more likely to get into a situation where I’m simultaneously attracted to a guy but also feel jealousy… sort of “do I want to be with him or do I want to be him? ”

This actually seems to be very common with most of the women I tend to talk with even the heterosexual ones but does seem to be mostly absent or less pronounced in straight guys.
Of course one of my theories is that it really isn’t in most of them but they repress talking about it and bottle it up and internalize in less healthy ways, as internet trolls for example.

@TSSL

I mean, these probably wouldn’t be relevant to most stories; you very much can write a gay romance the same way you’d write a hetero one. I just think it’s a bit of my point of view that’s worth sharing

But please do take the anatomical differences into account and don’t put gay players in a poorly converted and edited female role and don’t call us “queens” unless the character/mc in question really is one, drag or otherwise and they have indicated they don’t mind being called this in casual conversation.
Protip: Most drag queens are in fact straight, not gay, guys.

[MockTurtle]

Sometimes, I kind of appreciate when a game might throw some few lines that might address the fact that a particular romance is a same gender one. It shows that the writer actually took some time to think about lgbt people instead of just copy-paste the exact same scenes for both gender options.

As some members pointed out before, there can be differences in the way lgbt relationships might be treated or developed, and I know that the immediate conclusion drawn from that statement would be “dealing with homophobia”, but I would like to add that there are more nuances than that and not necessarily negative.

There’s, for example, the need to clarify how open do you want to be about the relationship. This is an issue that usually younger characters need to come to terms with, even when you don’t feel that there is an actual possibility of being rejected for it, it’s still something that needs to be dealt with, and different people might have to process it with more time and concern that others.

And just to clarify, I’m not saying that I want more games dealing with coming out issues, I think that it’s safe to assume that if you start a same gender romance, being accepted and open about it will be something that is going to be taken for granted. It’s just an example of something that might make a gay relationship compared to a straight one.

Another thing, might be past relationships. Like, if I know that a character has being known for have dated a lot of people of the opposite gender and never with someone of the same, it’s still a little bit strange that this would never be addressed if you start a gay relationship.

There is also a… touchy subject… how to say this? There are things that I say or talk about with lgbt people, That I wouldn’t say with straight people. It’s just there are some subjects or topics in which I take for granted when talking with people who go through the same experiences as I, but I would have to explain them differently if I wanted to talk about it with straight people. Not to mention that there are just some issues that I don’t feel comfortable talking about with straight people (mostly sex related stuff).

And even more complicated is when I might feel different about certain comments, jokes or words depending on who is saying them. There are certain comments that can be funny, sarcastic or well intended coming from queer people, but they might turn offensive when coming from straight people.

[TSSL]

@poison_mara

About love triangles people please let people choose to breaking down the relationship when it is offered. I have nothing against pan relationship. But they come from trust, confidence and have to be consensual by all parts. I personally are totally incapable of being in one, I was cheated and hurt so much that the only idea makes me impossible of trust . i would prefer a choice to say Look you could romance whoever but i am out

Ah, just for clarification, by “love triangle,” I wasn’t thinking of mutual polyamory so much as more complicated cases of who’s into whom. Like, the classic love triangle would be person A and person B are both into person C. You could also get something really dizzying like person A is interested in person B who’s attracted to person C who wants to go out with person A

@Djone1

If we don’t know anything about them and it was a first-time interaction I think being rejected is fine but like @TSSL said if we get to know them it should maybe come up at some point.

Yeah, the way you mention can definitely work! Also note if the character’s someone the main character would’ve known for a while previously, it might be some background info you’d already have. It depends. Even if homophobia and the closet aren’t an issue in your setting, some people are just naturally more into talking about relationships and who they’re interested in and some aren’t.

@idonotlikeusernames

Yep, this is the one concession I’d like that may deviate from my previous point in most of my escapism. Unless you really want to tell a very particular story that absolutely requires it and know what you’re doing.

Also, I feel like, if someone really wants to write an interactive fiction about homophobia, it’d be best to write it so that the main character is locked to being gay (or at least some sort of LGBT) so that you’re not penalizing the player for choosing to play as gay.

@idonotlikeusernames

Yes, you can be lots of (confusing things) and I’ve met at least one homoromantic bisexual guy, for example.

Heck, while I’m pretty sure I’m about exclusive homosexual, I feel I’m a lot fuzzier on the romantic side

@MockTurtle

Sometimes, I kind of appreciate when a game might throw some few lines that might address the fact that a particular romance is a same gender one. It shows that the writer actually took some time to think about lgbt people instead of just copy-paste the exact same scenes for both gender options.

I do think there are some positive ways to acknowledge the gayness of a romance, too. Like, solidarity sorts of things, or if the character’s the first in a field, being acknowledged as a milestone, or stuff like that. It’s all pretty setting-dependent, though.

@MockTurtle

There are certain comments that can be funny, sarcastic or well intended coming from queer people, but they might turn offensive when coming from straight people.

Also true. There’d be some jokes about gay stereotypes for which, if I see a gay person make that joke, I’ll think they’re making fun of the stereotype, while if I see a straight person make the joke, I’d be much more concerned that they’re making fun of gay people.

[poison_mara]

About the jokes totally agree, It can cause serious misunderstandings. Like I am hetero but having friends lgtb since childhood, We made certain jokes or so that if you don’t know us could be considered like offensive or weird. When is not . But I really think is not only in this cases. With friends we know since kindergarten all we behave diffently that with others. Probably because you have seen them pee on their bed with five years … But yeah, In games not put that jokes it would be considered offensive as people won’t have the context.

[Jose_Garcia]

I just want to say another big hearty thank you to everyobe who responded to this thread. It’s been really inspiring in my own work. I have been writing a lot of new material to my current WIP. I should have an open beta in two weeks. I am currently just fleshing out all the romances based on all the ideas I got from this thread.

Basically I made gender irrelevant coding wise. I added more choices instead so players can express different styles of courtship. I also set up a few love triangles. Some of these are same sex love triangles. The insight I recieved from gay men was particularly inspirational.

I didn’t get much feedback from lesbians but fortunately I know a lot irl who I am going to hit up for inspiration this weekend.

The ideas I got from this thread also inspired me to up my game on all romances to not just same sex.

Thanks again everyone. I was very nervous about this part of the game but now it’s my favourite part to write. I am having a blast.

[TSSL]

@poison_mara

About the jokes totally agree, It can cause serious misunderstandings. Like I am hetero but having friends lgtb since childhood, We made certain jokes or so that if you don’t know us could be considered like offensive or weird. When is not . But I really think is not only in this cases. With friends we know since kindergarten all we behave diffently that with others.

This is also a very true point. There are definitely things that would be okay for my friends to say that would not be okay for anyone else to.

@Jose_Garcia

I just want to say another big hearty thank you to everyobe who responded to this thread. It’s been really inspiring in my own work.

I’m so glad this has been helpful to you I really appreciate your attitude and interest and your making this thread to check in with people. Good luck with it all!

[idonotlikeusernames]

@TSSL

I’m so glad this has been helpful to you I really appreciate your attitude and interest and your making this thread to check in with people. Good luck with it all!

Hong Kong Blood Opera has definite promise, imho.

@Jose_Garcia

Basically I made gender irrelevant coding wise.

I hope you still use male/female/nb pronouns in the romance as I bet my mc would like to be seen as a desirable guy.
And of course please do code for the anatomical differences.

[Eiwynn]

@idonotlikeusernames

Hong Kong Blood Opera has definite promise, imho.

I really felt your feedback there was outstanding. You connected with the author on a level most of us didn’t.

[idonotlikeusernames]

Well see in a couple of weeks with the hopefully new and improved wardrobe choices how much influence I really had there.

[Hex]

I don’t really share the same mind of most on here, so I can’t speak for all people like myself, but I wouldn’t really take personal offense to it being treated differently in ways. Not less than. Just different.

I have friends of all sorts all with different opinions on these things in real life. Though more often than not it’s the straight males that seem to raise the biggest issues about these things. Just the ones I know. That still wouldn’t be enough to summarize all straight men ever, as you cannot adequately summarize all gay, trans, or bi people with a few blanket statements. Just as not all straight men are attracted to all women to exist, not all gays are attracted to all gays.

Also, I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in saying it. There’s always that one hetero friend who thinks that you must want to do them. I know some people are completely afraid of touching these things out of fear of backlash, but some part of me wants to see that kind of scene in Interactive Fiction because it’s just that I personally, understand it and find it funny.

But as I said. People have different sensitivities. What some people view as well meaning or a joke, won’t be perceived that way by everybody. Not everyone. Just some. But then it becomes a question of what’s acceptable boundaries. While I could personally laugh most things off about it, I know that some people don’t share that sentiment and they still have to be respected.

[poison_mara]

Sometimes I miss posting in all so new wips. But I am certainly safe that way. and @idonotlikeusernames is awesome and strangely we share a lot of opinions

[Jose_Garcia]

Your influence went far beyond the wardrobe selection. I have decided to promot a minor character into a bigger romantic role. I hope he will be popular with gay men.

He’s inspired by one of the characters from savior of the soul.

[ParrotWatcher]

@Hex

Just as not all straight men are attracted to all women to exist, not all gays are attracted to all gays.

I guess this is less a problem in IF (where I get to choose who to romance), but far too often it seems like authors just stick gay characters together “because they’re both gay” without any of the buildup or chemistry that a straight couple would have.

@Hex

Also, I’m pretty sure I’m not alone in saying it. There’s always that one hetero friend who thinks that you must want to do them. I know some people are completely afraid of touching these things out of fear of backlash, but some part of me wants to see that kind of scene in Interactive Fiction because it’s just that I personally, understand it and find it funny.

Well, I wouldn’t class them as a “friend”… I guess I don’t really want to see IF treat gay players worse than straight ones. If the guy is a jerk no matter what, then I guess it would be less of a problem, though…

@Jose_Garcia

Your influence went far beyond the wardrobe selection. I have decided to promot a minor character into a bigger romantic role. I hope he will be popular with gay men.

I was going to joke that @idonotlikeusernames does tend to have that effect on people… and then I remembered that I’d done exactly that in ZESH…

[BFFBFF]

Really enjoyed reading everyone’s responses here, so I thought I would share my own opinions as well haha!

While I disagree with making the games too different/difficult for homosexual MCs, for me personally, I feel that I enjoy games better if there are subtle differences that allow me to experience better that I am in a same sex romance. For example, how would the character find out that I am queer, or how would I know that a certain character is gay and is interested in a romance. (I guess the simplest way is to let the MC flirt with everyone, or the other way around.)

In addition, I think it is possible for different characters to react differently to hetero/homosexual relationships without it being homophobic. For example, having a character being surprised to find out that my MC is homosexual but being completely okay with it or finding out my MC is not homosexual and is disappointed but accepting that they will not have a chance.

I know there are people who prefer there to be no differences, but they add flavour for me personally (and makes me feel special haha!)

[The_Lady_Luck]

I enjoy the little flavour differences as well, as long as they aren’t expecting my character to be some stereotype of their gender.
If the RO mention my f!character’s gorgeous breasts and my m!character’s rippling/bulging muscles, that’d be rather uncomfortable for me.

F!characters being called “beautiful” and m!characters “handsome”, is a small pet peeve of mine, as I’m more likely to play handsome women and beautiful men!

But yes, RO’s acknowledging my character’s gender with more than just changed pronouns, and the game acknowledging their sexuality, is wonderful.

[idonotlikeusernames]

@The_Lady_Luck

But yes, RO’s acknowledging my character’s gender with more than just changed pronouns, and the game acknowledging their sexuality, is wonderful.

That’s often basically the main difference between an okay gay romance and a good one for me.

@The_Lady_Luck

and m!characters “handsome”, is a small pet peeve of mine, as I’m more likely to play handsome women and beautiful men!

I like both handsome and beautiful men and some who blur the lines.

@ParrotWatcher

I was going to joke that @idonotlikeusernames does tend to have that effect on people… and then I remembered that I’d done exactly that in ZESH …

And I did it your Totem Force game! Though maybe TSSL has had some influence there as well?