Relics of the Lost Age (WIP) - Submitted, demo removed

[kckolbe]

@Schliemannsghost A LOT of feedback coming.

There are 4 options on the first skill check. THREE of them improve subterfuge. This is ridiculous, especially since there are six attributes possible to upgrade. I would recommend either putting the secondary attribute increase in a separate choice, or at least changing the athletics primary choice to turn fisticuffs or reactions into the secondary improvement instead of subterfuge. Adding other options isn’t a horrible idea either.

Sam is a bit too perfect, able to pass every “skill check” in every skill. I get that you didn’t want to specialize and railroad the MC, while also preventing story barriers, but I kinda feel like the sidekick in the story. What would you say are Sam’s weaknesses?

The mid Chapter One switch to the past could use a stronger transition (or a complete deletion, see final note)

“‘I’m still pissed off about Schneider calling me his ‘fellow Aryan.’ That really got under my skin.’” I have no choice but to say this. Just about everything else, I have the ability to choose how my character reacts to religion, morality…but this is locked in? I can’t overstress how big a problem this is. It’s not about the line. It’s about my character no longer being my character to develop.

"Esme breathes deeply through her nose. “‘Too trusting,’” she whispers. “‘That trait will get you killed.’” Remember that this is the person who blindly goes around helping people without learning anything about the situation. Just doesn’t seem in character for her.

Maybe blank out the stuff we don’t have the specialization/skills to see? It gives us info we shouldn’t have at times.

Zhu’s apparent inability to abide the Nazis to the point of betraying his superiors doesn’t seem to fit with his ruthlessness.

“The dog-headed creature is immediately recognizable as Anubis, the Egyptian deity responsible for bringing the souls of the deceased into the afterlife. He’s a revealer of mysteries, insofar as he inducts the newly-deceased into their new life in the Underworld, but he doesn’t seem especially closely associated with the idea of secrecy. You doubt it’s him.” I feel that it’s obvious that a “revealer of mysteries” isn’t the secret-keeper. I’d get rid of the last bit stating it overtly.

Also, the guy with the finger to his lips is a pretty obvious answer even without the skill check.

Finally, this is long as hell without ever going anywhere. You learn where you and all the artifacts end up, so each new adventure does nothing to advance the plot. It’s a grind. I think this game might be better as an episodic, with each adventure being a story of its own, letting us savor the conclusion of each mission with more than a one bullet choice, all without knowing that one day, many versions down the road, we will end up captured. This is a major structure overhaul, but the current storytelling isn’t enjoyable, despite an enjoyable game.

[Schliemannsghost]

Thanks for reading and commenting, especially for getting to the end if you felt it was a grind! I’m pleased you still felt it was an “enjoyable game”, despite the numerous problems you had with it. You have certainly given me a lot to think about.

@kckolbe

What would you say are Sam’s weaknesses?

Sam’s not so hot at Athleticism and Charm, although maybe those shortcomings aren’t prominent enough. I’ll take a look.

@kckolbe

I can’t overstress how big a problem this is.

I do disagree here. I know people like to have unrestricted freedom to shape their MC, but I did feel like there had to be some limits on that, given the nature of the story. This is a story that features people like the Nazis and the KKK - if I were to give players unrestricted freedom to shape their MC’s political stance, it should be possible for them to make a Dr. Spillane who was a Nazi sympathiser, but I’m just not going to allow that in my game! I feel like a line does have to be drawn here, and if I’m going to draw a line then “compulsory aversion to white supremacist ideology” is a pretty justifiable place to draw that line!

@kckolbe

Zhu’s apparent inability to abide the Nazis to the point of betraying his superiors doesn’t seem to fit with his ruthlessness.

I’ll look back at the Zhu converstaions in Chapter 2. There is a bit more on Zhu and his backstory and motivations coming up in Chapter 6 which may clarify things a little, though

@kckolbe

I’d get rid of the last bit stating it overtly.

Yeah, that probably is too blatant, isn’t it?!

@kckolbe

I think this game might be better as an episodic

I’ll certainly think about it. I know that flashbacks and a framing narrative structure is really unusual for a choice game (less so in other types of fiction), so I did worry about whether it would work or not. Maybe I’ll wait till the first draft is fully out (so that people can see how the whole thing plays, conclusion and all) and then solicit feedback on whether it needs restructuring.

Thanks again: great and helpful pointers!

[kckolbe]

@Schliemannsghost

I do disagree here. I know people like to have unrestricted freedom to shape their MC, but I did feel like there had to be some limits on that, given the nature of the story. This is a story that features people like the Nazis and the KKK - if I were to give players unrestricted freedom to shape their MC’s political stance, it should be possible for them to make a Dr. Spillane who was a Nazi sympathiser, but I’m just not going to allow that in my game! I feel like a line does have to be drawn here, and if I’m going to draw a line then “compulsory aversion to white supremacist ideology” is a pretty justifiable place to draw that line!

I get your concern, but I’m not asking for the option to condone/sympathise, just asking that I not be forced to condemn. A simple “I’d rather not talk about it” option leaves players the freedom to interpret that how they like while still not undermining tone. Because you have to bear in mind that this is not an action. It’s an unnecessary line. Eliminating it completely has no effect on the story.

Also, I will add that I appreciated the “combination” skill checks. Always been a fan of those.

[Schliemannsghost]

I’ll take another look at that line. I think I use it as a way into giving the player the “non-white grandfather” option, but maybe there’s a way I can get there without dictating a player’s reaction. Thanks again!

[jason_stark]

Hello and thanks for giving us access to this amazing game. I just wanted to request if you could add in an option to choose your grandfather as an Indian like from asia. And also how to win the battle in the congo

[TheGhost]

If we’re going to get to pick our grandfather’s ethnicity, might I suggest Russian (or another Slavic ethnicity) as an option? Seeing as how Nazism was partially based off of expanding East and killing Slavs for lebensraum, it would make for an interest contrast with someone (mistakenly) called an Aryan.

[Schliemannsghost]

Thanks very much! Yes, I would be very open to adding an Indian background, and indeed to adding a Slavic background as suggested by @TheGhost. On the backgrounds in general, they’re still a work in progress. When I’ve pushed the next chapter, I want to go back and work more on the backgrounds, specifically by incorporating them more fully into the story and giving each one at least one cool “moment” in the main storyline. So now’s a good moment for anybody else who wants to see a different background in here to make their suggestions!

On the Congo battle, it depends on what you mean by “winning”. The Efe always turn up at the last minute: if you’ve done well at the battle, it will already be clear that you’re going to win, and they’ll just be there to help mop up the dregs of the Nazi force; if you’ve done less well, the Efe will basically save your skin! Tips for doing well would be: have strong leadership at the South Gate (prob send both Cleo and Sam there). If you don’t have good shooting skill, keep Jeff with you at the north gate to pick off the Jeep drivers. Setting up the lights on the wall means you’ll do more damage with every attack before they get inside the gates: it’s a pretty sensible thing to do, especially in combination with moving the Gatling gun to the exterior walls. Pick the personal role that suits your strongest stat. And good luck!

[jason_stark]

Okay thanks and also will we get to romance the femme fatale amazonion cause we all know how much we love a little danger (see catwoman)

[Schliemannsghost]

Not in this game. But I do have plans for a sequel …

[jason_stark]

Dang it then I’ll just have to use my hot tub time machine and go a decade ahead cause that is how long the wait is gonna feel

[KJM]

I decided to take another look at your project and see how it progressed since the last time I saw it and I gotta say I like your writing style, it remained an enjoyable read for the most part. The indiana-vibe took a hit, but I’ll get to that - meanwhile, nice to see nazi uniform disguise making it into the cut

Somewhat on @kckolbe note, in that conversation with Sam, but also some other ones (I believe with them and Cleo in Congo, right prior to two tribesmen’s warning) my slight issue was rather ability to end the conversation without exhausting all the dialogue options. I also second the slav pick from @theGhost altho keeping in mind that the year of our first adventure (chapter) is what it is, so the tensions in east eu are not entirely about the Nazi theme and other evils are in play - which now, that I think about it could potentially clash with

Esme's view

As depending on the view there is another tide to meet it (which very literally does, as we know )

That does btw somewhat connects with Abdul’s quote from around same time:

that we don’t get to polemise with nor does it seem to get under MC’s skin, despite the last line being bait-ish, and I believe unnecessarily so, if the focus is to be on fun desert adventure at the moment, in which case I’d suggest dropping last two sentences and letting reader do the rest of the thinking, if they wish - ethnic divides are hardly invention of “MC’s people”, unless Abdul means human kind, but that raises more questions about his origins

Moving on, there’s a few more pennies that I’ll try to keep brief and organised, for you consideration:

Oh, spoilers.

General thought on flippant stat and it's application

I found it weird that even after expressing our dissatisfaction with Stevo packing whiskey, our professionalism takes a hit… when we take a hit (at a single swig it won’t have any significant negative impact, and it’s not like moral grandstanding will somehow undo Stevo’s choices), but at the same time shortly after:

engaging with unknown numbers of enemy is not considered flippant. Just curious about it.

On the note, same goes ie. for our choice of greeting Beaumont in his place:

Amusing, but hardly professional

Also also, on that note, when we decide at the very end of the chapter whether to tell the truth about the poisoning, perhaps in paragraph just above we could have a vague sentence that his wife might take a blame for it? Just so it’s not zero-one choice. Unless it is somewhat mentioned, I don’t have reference pic, so in that case disregard this ;p

Aaand lastly:

Why oh why is liking Christmas taking away 3 points from professionalism?!

Congo situation

This is a tough one with a few issues I’d like to share my thoughts on.

Cleo's Deception

While I like the idea, in execution there is one path that I wish provided with more incentive for adventure - the one where MC confront’s angrily, their relations with Cleo are on strictly professional level, and we choose “Screw this. Im going home” - brilliant response! It was supposed to be private vacations in colleague’s dig site, not war zone after all. Which takes us here however:

Return of Charmingly Naive Sam

Remember the first chapter and the death of Ruth? There was a side note I made while playing:

Charmingly naive Sam is fun! Until they start building a railroad.

…because it’s not just another danger of wild environment and old structures, it’s a tribe of hunters on a war path! They do mention again a lack of reason for attack, alas again, MC already knows it’s not true and so should they: just before we learned all riverboats are being attacked and with deadly effect, as confirmed later by our guide. So no Sam, you’re adorable, but from perspective of a fully selfish, sceptical and suspicious MC, like the one below, wrong.

Now, above means there could be little to no reason left for MC to sail onward, as Sam’s, Cleo’s, fate’s and adventure call arguments fall flat. Perhaps additional, perhaps financial incentive could be introduced, or perhaps you can think of something else

Either way we’re still on uncertain grounds with Cleo, which is attempted to be resolved shortly after:

…but it’s very black and white. Once they all get out alive, pros and cons weighted in perspective, surely there’d be place for forgivness from wronged MC - but immediately forgotten or forever shunned? Uff

There’s also a matter of sharing experiences:

Which is a very fair point, which begs the question, why would MC mention everything, especially if they’re sceptics themselves? That is something I wish we had a choice about.

Conversation Bug?

Or maybe just something on my end, but choosing this option at any point ends the conversation, unlike the other ones, which come back to this page.

Sam's Lovesickness

Everything apart from this single line from Sam is great. Even in these circumstances them telling the professor to quieten down is very… well, disrespectful. That being beside the point, that I’d welcome the option to not comment just a page before, where we have to choose between encouraging the romance or not. Just you know, let us keep our nose off

Captivity

Now, this is a crux of the issue, or rather where it all starts for me:

Not necessarily the choice itself, but over-arching repercussions of a lack of the argument: they’re archeologists, adventurous, but still not soldiers. The first part of the plan is quite alright: they’re freeing themselves, freeing others can be argued viably from both altruistic and selfish positions, but

This is a straight up Rainbow Six infiltration. Don’t get me wrong: the chapter technicaly is written very well, kudos for that. I cannot however picture the particular kind of MC I’ve build going on with it. One thing is more or less creatively dealing with few evil people while trying to recover artifact, but whole another a hostile takeover of the military camp At least, maybe there could be option to suggest others to just set other prisoners free and use their breakout as cover for trying to escape the camp?

Alas, plan proceeds, and consequently the MC is being put not just in unwanted position, but highly unfavorable one. For reference, what I was going with:

…and yet, it never fails. All the pathways either pass the check, or their failure is negated and - in effect - inconsequential. Eventually the massacre happens and it features this character:

who in no way resembles my MC from just before capture:

…and, obviously, the actual shooting part is rather awful, as it should! In the meantime Cleo, desribed as “clearly not exactly the world’s greatest shot”, turns into dual-pistol wielding machine of death (or just Lara Croft), Sam - once a student - is “laying waste to the crowded ranks of half-prepared soldiers with vicious blade” and I’m in the middle of this trying to figure out why would my MC be doing any of this at all, slaughtering the soldiers. As Kurtz said:

So even taking out the matter of them being trained soldiers, we’re forced to participate in their execution. At no point we get option to suggest simply encircling them, forcing to surrender, we just become judges and executioners - where’s Cleo that called MC a fool and schooled about shooting only in self-defence… and then we’re the lead strategist of the next battle. I believe by now you can guess how puzzled and mismatched I felt with my MC there, that never wanted to fight a single soul

Battling Schneider

In reference to what I wrote before:


If that’s what “2” grants, with few more points in gunplay they’d be shooting nukes, right?

Kengani

I only separated this part because it’s damn funny and ngl would love to see that ceremony, maybe in the middle of victory celebration deep in the jungle

Stone For Stone

Just gonna ask, is the funeral any different based on relationship status? The reason I ask is because MC is taking the demise very hard, while in this particular run not only was it only official and later uncomfortable after choosing to not forgive her, but I also selected at the beginning of the chapter that my MC didn’t really like her all that much.

Furthermore I think this should be a choice, because once again I was legitimately puzzled, so again just gonna ask if it’s different for heavily spiritual MC? Because one could argue, that the speech is not for the liking of deceased, but those left alive, and hoping for a soul to find way to heaven would hardly be sign of disrespect, if the one doing the speech believes in it - fact that Cleo didn’t is irrelevant, she’s meeting the maker anyway.

Misgendering

Last chapter:

It should be her ;p

Showdown

If you somehow survived my ramblings to this point, I believe you have a picture how I feel about going guns blazing like I’m playing Mafia

[Schliemannsghost]

Wow, thank you so much! That’s a lot of very thoughtful and detailed advice: I’m really grateful for the time you put into it.

Specific comments: yes, you’re definitely right, Professional / Flippant needs a bit more work. I’ll take a look when I can.

Congo: there’s a lot there. I know it’s a tough chapter for non-combat focused MCs - I did try to include a good number of chances to use the Charm stat, but still (but then I did get grief higher up in the thread for writing a Chapter 3 which isn’t so good for MCs who are combat focused, so at least it’s balanced!). I’ll certainly add the opportunity to defer the decision on whether or not to forgive Cleo until later in the chapter, and bring it up again at the end for players who don’t want to decide so early on, that’s a good shout (assuming Cleo lives that long). I felt myself that the “screw you guys I’m going home” option needed more work, so it’s good to get confirmation that that’s something I should look at. (Although I can think of one motivation for your super-professional MC to sail on: what kind of archaeologist turns their nose up at the chance to find an undiscovered lost city?!) With the breakout, I was going more for the MC being outvoted: since Cleo, Jeff and Sam all think that the people should be freed, they kind of have to go along with it. But I’ll think about how I can strengthen that.

Thanks again for all these comments. A lot of stuff to think about, and it’s all really helpful.

[lynossa]

Read this on a whim when I was looking for WIP to check and 4 hours later here I am at 3am finishing your demo. This is one of the best WIPs I ever read. You’ve definitely done your homework, it feels like reading novel written by profesional and experienced author.

I have several comments:
In the earlier chapters I really like being linguistics, but then in chapter 3 & 4, that specialty doesn’t help much. Also, this is personal pet peeves but I’m always annoyed when translating scene came up in a story and movie and the character does it flawlessly without having doubt or needing to re-read it. I’m a translator and despite how fluent a translator in the language, there will always times when you are not sure about the meaning you’ll pick due to nuance and context (especially for words that have dual meaning). It’s small thing but, hopefully something like that can come up in the game.

In chapter 3 my gunner skill is 5, but I keep failing in shooting the baddies. How high should it be to pass the skill check?

Another comment is I don’t know if this has been addressed before, in chapter 4, it seems you are either gonna make Sam badly hurted or Cleo killed. Is there a way to avoid any of those?

[Schliemannsghost]

Thank you very much for your kind comments, I’m really happy you enjoyed it! Sorry to keep you up until 3am though!

The specialisms are tricky. My goal is that each of them should be equally useful across the whole game, but they won’t necessarily all be equally useful in each chapter. Linguistics is, I think, most useful in 1, 2 and 6, though you have a few chances to use it in the other chapters. But the other specialisms are also of variable use throughout (Survivalism, for example, is really helpful in the wilderness chapters, and not much use at all in the city-based chapters!). Thanks for the comments on translation: I tried to convey a bit of that with the Hebrew translations in Chapter 1, but I’ll think about how to get that in there more.

A score of 5 is, I think, borderline in Chapter 3: most of the checks there are either 5 or 6. As for Sam and Cleo, yes, it’s possible to get through that section with both of them unharmed. It’s also possible to get through that section with both of them harmed, if you really want to put your MC through the emotional wringer!

[lynossa]

@Schliemannsghost

Sorry to keep you up until 3am though!

Don’t! I’m always willing to sacrifice my sleep over great stories.

Looking forward to chapter 6 since we’re back in Asia and if Zhu were alive we would meet him but he’s dead so…

Edit: will we be able to romance someone even if MC has different political view or stance with them? For example MC who believes in supernatural romancing Cleo or MC who supports the oppressed romancing Zhu?

[Schliemannsghost]

@lynossa

will we be able to romance someone even if MC has different political view or stance with them?

Yes. Romancing does involve raising their approval, and you might take a slight hit for disagreeing with them on stuff, but not enough to rule out the romance. Typically, each RO has one or two real “red button” areas, which will cost you a lot of approval (e.g. telling Esme she should go back to England and not live in the desert, or telling Abdul that he should split up with Esme ), but on most questions they won’t rule you out as a romance partner just for disagreeing with them! Also, Zhu’s dead …

[Kattz]

Hi, it’s April and my college semester is over. Idk if you remember me but I’m back and looking forward to what updates you’ve made since I said I would be gone~

[Schliemannsghost]

Welcome back, and congrats on making it through the semester!

[Somniari]

I greatly enjoyed the WIP, even though I started it on a whim without really knowing what to expect! The quality of WIPs can really vary, so I was pleasantly surprised to see the level this one had.

Some thoughts:

Maria

Anyway, I’ve got to say it’s really tragic that we won’t get Maria as a RO in the first book! I wasn’t sure who I was going to go for the romance, but I quickly decided to roll a MC still in love with her the moment she came into the picture The chance to daydream about her in the latest chapter just solidified my belief, what a delightful little scene lol Really shows that the MC can still carry quite the torch for the woman despite their current antagonistic relationship. Maria or bust!

I do have to wonder how you’ll go about setting up that particular content, tbh. Maria doesn’t seem especially receptive, given her goals and personality; she could change her stance if the MC saved her life or something like that, but given her personality, she might just keep despising them despite that.

Given the fact that Selfish is a stat and it controls stuff like greedy behavior and such, I’m pretty sure a Dr. Spillane that wants to get back with Maria will need to have at least a high selfish stat, which in turn will most likely mean they won’t really care for morals as long as they get a profit out of their adventures.

One thing I’d like to see would be her actually mellowing out and starting to respect you the more selfish you become if possible. Imagine a “you and I are not so different, after all” scene! It could be quite poignant in showing that the only difference between them is that the MC is nominally a “good guy” and only because they despise Nazis.

Cleopatra

To be quite honest, Cleopatra is probably my least liked companion character. This lessened in Chapter 4, but Chapter 3 was bad in this. This stems from issues that have already been voiced in the thread - I do not know how it was before since you edited the chapter with the feedback given, but I did feel at certain points that I was playing as the sidekick to the MC, that being Cleopatra.

I won’t repeat points already made and I don’t write this as a real criticism, just as an observation of my experience. As a character, Cleopatra didn’t click as it were for me.

How many chapters are there gonna be? We know there will be at least 6 (two for each companion - wonder how that would work, given that Zhu is dead… ), but after that? Maybe two? An escape from the Semiramis and probably an epilogue, I’m guessing.

Well, I’ll be waiting eagerly for the next update. And then, the sequel. Maria García Pérez demands it so!
PS. Her surnames should be accentuated, given they are Spanish ones. Source: am Spanish

[Schliemannsghost]

Thanks for your comments, I’m really happy you liked it! There will be one more major chapter, then an Endgame (which will resolve the framing narrative stuff and see you hopefully thwarting the Nazis’ wicked schemes with the Relics), and then an Epilogue. I’ll probably do the Endgame and Epilogue as a single update, so basically two more major updates and it will be finished!

Maria: I’ve had a lot of thoughts on her. She will change a little over the final portion of this book. I’m not going to give her a redemption arc, exactly - a lot of her appeal stems from her villainy! - but you will begin to see some sides to her character that you perhaps wouldn’t expect so far, especially in the Endgame.

Cleo: I agree, I think there’s still more work on her that needs to be done, especially in Chapter 3. I think the current version of Chapter 3 is a lot better than the version that I originally put out, thanks largely to the excellent pointers from Urban higher up in the thread, but there are still some issues with her. At present, I’m going to try to get to the end, and then rework Chapter 3 a bit after that.

And on Maria’s name: yes, there are quite a few words in there that should have accents on them but don’t, because when I was starting out I didn’t actually know how to include accents in a Notepad document (I really am that incompetent!) Again, once the full version is pushed, I’m going to do a full sweep and add in lots of accents where they are currently missing. That will be a fun job!

Thanks again for your comments!