The level of resentment against corporate rainbow flag waving on this thread just added 15 years to my life expectancy.
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Toronto queer here. Can I just say how happy I am that cops wont be allowed a float and uniforms at toronto pride and that thanks to this, we wont have to see Rob Ford? Like, we’ll probably still have corporate floats wich freaking suck but at least we wont have to see conservatives performative backpatting.
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They already do that over here and in general drag Queens and trans women are quite visible in the media. Honestly I would maybe like to see the opposite some time, let them use a good drag King in the ads once, but they won’t because that might actually get people to question some of the more toxic aspects of masculinity.
Can’t speak very much to the much lower media visibility of trans guys other than the fact that male beauty is still less of a media focus and in general to be male often still means being “tough”, being a good-provider, blending in with the “boys” and keeping your mouth shut. Aka, being the strong, silent, grizzled action hero type of macho man that often still seems to be normative ideal of masculinity.
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Well wr haven’t none of those in our advertising and all sound far better than modern advertising like seriously some are in medieval age
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I agree. I really feel like this is a huge part of what has to change that is never addressed. I heard a national public radio discussion earlier this year on masculinity, and how it relates to acts of violence. There was a lot of discussion about toxic masculinity, of course, and after a time the moderator asked the panel for examples of healthy masculinity, and every single answer had something to do with protecting someone from violence. An example of a high school sports coach who died protecting children came up again and again.
The thing is even in this progressive, open-minded forum not one person could come up with an example of masculinity that didn’t involve violence. Either committing it or fighting against it. There has to be more to “being a man,” than protecting, and providing.
I hate the injustices that I have to put up with as a woman. I wont list them all here because we all know them, and honestly this post is too long already, but even with all the crap I have to deal with being a woman, I wouldn’t want to trade places with men.
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This sentence in particular, I want to address. I think masculinity and feminity are the extremes of the spectrum.
For example, as said there, protecting others, providing, always being respectful, being a shield are characteristics of masculinity.
While nurturing, emotional strength, being the heart of the family and stuff like that are characteristics of feminity.
But this doesn’t mean that men have to be only masculine or women only femenine. Most people is in a point in between, some people goes more to one side than the other, and imo being a femenine man or a masculine woman doesn’t make you any less man or woman. There are many areas in between.
So, yes, while protecting and providing are usually masculine traits, you don’t need to be that way to be a “proper” man. And in the same way, you don’t need to be a mother to be a “proper” woman.
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One of most big problems I have with society is what I am more sure everyday I have a gender role dysphoria. I born as woman and I always have considered myself one. However Since Kid I being bullied and treated bad because You are not behaving like a proper woman.
Nuns called my dad to asking to lead me to a psychologist or a priest to cure me as They didn’t want a tomboy in their school.
That have always provoked in me anxiety and a feeling that encourages exactly the behaviour I should not have for society.
I am in behaviour a male. You put a description of how a male should behave for that people and I have absolutely all. And basically none feminine one. I am assertive i am harsh my first reaction is fight and I am very protective. I also seems like testosterone fill. And I have even participate in local motocross with other guys. And all that. Of course that includes the typical masculine defects I am prone to violence rude and too competitive and stubborn.
However I don’t see myself as a male and have no problem with my body. I am a woman just i give a fuck whatever society says I should behave and dress and I won’t make up and put sexist clothing because they said so. I suppose there’s more people in my case and here I knew some because during many years I thought I had a mental problem that I was broken because I wasn’t behaving like others expected and treated like I were a failure.
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If you are broken for that, then that makes both of us.
I have pretty much the same qualities. I love my physical strength, I am not afraid to get in a physical fight and I won’t hesitate to fight someone to protect others or myself. I buy most of my clothes on the men section because they are practical and comfortable, which I prefer. I’m loud, very extrovert and I will make myself hear in any meeting. I will absolutely not bend to what other people wants if I don’t agree with it myself. And I am really competitive as well. But I also have femenine traits, like I go all 'owwwwwwww" when I see a cute animal, and I go out of my way to pet dogs or cats, and always try to save the lives of the insects that come into my house. I am very emotional and compassionate, despite being really brash. I find the English expression of “wearing the heart on the sleeve” to be very fitting for me.
Obviously I was called marimacho as a kid and a teen, and on my teen years it was a bit harder, but then I realised that fuck them because I am great the way I am 
.
So yeah, don’t worry Mara, you are not alone out there 
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Well In school they left called me Marimacho because I kick enough asses for me and for my Friend Diego that was gay since kid and with the problem for those assholes or being too feminine…
Like Wtf I am too manly he is too feminine… Like Those rules are stupid as hell. I am sure that is society who put certain labels on us That if we were free of pressure The people would be diverse in spectrum. And Yeah totally I buy in masculine section except for weedings . And I was like that since kids as my dad say You want put that clothes well you put them. He also was who taught me drive moto because he was professional in Motocross. My dad always was supportive.
But yeah starting a new working is a pain because until they used to me is all gossip. Gossip I cut with a knife Saying If any one has something to say in my face you are welcomed. But if you go under my back i recommended you run.
I just that way lol. I haven’t being shy in my whole life
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Okay, I just saw a blow up over this in another thread and I think it is important to mention it.
LGBTQIA+ - terms are not universal. Depending on age, country, specific subculture, town or just even specific little group different terms can mean the same/different things.
Bi - Pan is two such terms. What the difference between these two terms is, varies so widely nobody not even other bi/pan people can be entirely sure what another person means when they identify as one of these. Basically the only thing everybody can be sure of is that attraction to more than one gender is implied in both.
Genderqueer is another such term. While genderqueer is a specific non-binary gender it is also rarely used as an umbrella term - because most people understand the queer part of genderqueer, but not always the specific.
Do not assume that the way people in your corner of the internet nor you real life uses those terms are the only one.
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I is debatable. Intersex people have told us time and time again that they do not want to be part of the acronym because intersexuality is not inherently gay or trans. There are several pieces written on this by intersex people that can be easily found with a Google search, so I won’t try to speak for them.
Ace discourse is still ongoing.
It is also usually not preferred as a non-binary umbrella term used by cishets due to containing the slur “queer”, which, some believe, only queer people should be allowed to use and reclaim - and some LGBT people still find the term offensive.
I always, ALWAYS, err on the side of inclusion, because anything else will just be plain rude. As far as I understood it most intersex people identify as either man or woman, but a few I have met online does identify with the I and I am not going to turn that person away, even if it is just one single person.
Ace-discourse is still on going in the way that bi-discourse is still on going and the legimitacy of us non-binary people is still on going. A also stand for aro and ally depending on who you ask.
And I have only ever heard other non-binary peers use genderqueer as an umbrella turn. Where I am from the majority of cis people doesn’t even know we exist and thus doesn’t even know to use a slur against us. And, yes, I do include gay people in this.
As for queer. That is a battle that is lost. I don’t specifically like the term queer for personal reason, but the majority uses it and wants to be identified by it and I accept that.
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I was also picked on a lot growing up (sometimes it was to the extent of physical altercations) because I was too feminine! I didn’t like the rough and tough nature of “Boy things” and I was a bit of a softy. I tended to hang out with girls more because they did more mild when we were younger, I like “Girls things”, etc. It’s entirely stupid to put expectations and pre-requisites on certain interests based on gender. Just let kids be kids.
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I never understood the anti-queer craze. All the older LGBTQ peoples I know have no idea where it came from and personally from what I’ve learned, a good part of it comes from TERF disliking it because its been used as an umbrella term for decades. I get why individuals might not like it, my own boyfriend have a complicated history with the word. But as a genderfluid person I identify with it more than anything else and its only recently that its become such a big thing and we shouldnt ignore that a lot of it was first pushed by TERFS and then adopted by the very same peoples TERFS are trying to split appart. Like, peoples say its a slur but where I grew up its gay that was used a slur against me and I’d never act like I have the right to tell a gay person they shouldnt use this term. Our experiences with being LGBTQ is different for everyone and acting like we’re entitled to police other peoples identity is toxic and should be fought against at every opportunity. When we divide ourselves over such ridiculous things it only give power to TERFS, transmedicalists and anyone else who hurt the community with misguided and divisive beliefs.
As for the bi-pan thing. I consider myself Pan and its commonly aggreed that the terms are pretty much interchangeable but the difference matters to some so ultimately it doesnt hurt anyone to just use the term they prefer. Respecting peoples gender and orientation will alway matter more than feeding some misguided feeling of superiority.
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I personally identify as queer, but I respect that it’s triggering for some folks, and I don’t necessarily like it as a catch-all.
I found this a generally lovely discussion of the term, and this part especially resonated with me:
“Queer” challenges the assumed binary of sexual and gender identity. Many use the term as being synonymous with “gay”, but to me, that misses its meaning. “Queer” is about non-normativity, creativity, and diversity far beyond homonormative culture.
The gay identity stereotypically comes with expectations around gender performance, politics, body standards, and sexual desires, and these feel oppressive to many people. For us, “queer” allows for community-building with those who don’t subscribe to gay standards.
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By catch all I definitely mean outside the norm of gay. I’ve mostly heard it used by trans, agenders, non-binary and genderfluid folks as well as part of the intersex peoples who want to be considered LGBTQ. Its an easy way to make someone realize you arent cishet without having to go in depth about it and I’m fine with that.
Edit: I’ve recently seen anti-queer peoples use an article about gay peoples asked if they identified as queer as an excuse to critisize queer. The article in itself was subpar, small research pool, taken in circles already biased against the word uniquely in england. But on top of it, the only peoples interviewed were simply cisgender gays, wich completely miss the point of what queer means. Its not up to cis gay guys to decide if or not we should use the term when its not even a term for them in the first place.
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My own complicated history with the word queer comes from being bullied for being weird and running into the word in its weird/strange meaning before its identity meaning.
Plus when I first tried to reach out to the communities the people calling themselves queer were to say it mildly nasty to bi people.
Therefore I have this emotional reaction to the word that I just can’t shake and vastly prefer using my specefic labels. But as said by other it is one of the most agreed upon umbrella terms and that is… what it is. I am certainly not going to fight people for whom it is important. The word has way to much history for that.
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I’m sorry peoples were nasty to you about it. I feel like in general the schism in the lgbtq community comes a lot from elitism and it really gotta be thrown out. I had bad experiences with peoples from the other side in much the same way you have and its ridiculous that we just go ahead and hurt other members of our own community because they dont conform to our set idea of what things are and its why I really wish peoples would just stop fighting over non-issues and start focusing on what truly matters like TERFS giving lesbians and trans mens a bad name by hijacking and using their movements to push their weird opinions and the strange rise in lgbtq peoples turning right wing (like for real how the f*ck does THAT happen)
I alway say, if someone isnt comfortable with a term, just dont use it for them and dont try to make decisions for others. We’ve been hurt too much to just become like the peoples who caused us pain. The whole ace discourse and queer discourse shouldnt exist in the first place.
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Sorry but what a terf means? If is not much ask. I don’t understand why lgtbq community and feminist movement fighting between themselves. All are fighting to be accepted and being equally treated in society than cis straight males are.
We should fight for equality for everyone not just for our group and not infighting. But just my opinion.
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TERF - trans exclusionary radical feminist
“Feminists” whose feminism excludes trans women, and usually all other trans people.
Trans women are predatory men trying to molest women, trans men are sad and confused women, and nb people are a mix of both if they even exist, in their eyes.
Particularly noisy transphobes, accepted by a lot of society.
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