I'm Sorry, But I Think We Should See Other People - ROs You Hate

[EvilChani]

@Phenrex

Unironically, I wish I had an RO who was more of a piece of shit, so I could justify having a ‘we are done here’ scene at some point in the future to allow for the freedom of just… Leaving the relationship.

It seems that, in the games where the RO really is a piece of shit, you don’t get that option at all. Or you can walk away and it’s not really cathartic because they were pretty much getting with someone else to begin with (so the MC never mattered to them at all, which just kind of makes it unsatisfying).

@Phenrex

No, in general it’s more about being forced to be treated poorly by an RO, you are locked in so even if you get the chance to end the relationship you can’t start a new one… And even then, usually instead you don’t have that choice at all. Instead, you are always treated like garbage and never aloud to voice a complaint or be enraged. You just as a character are forced to accept how you are being treated.

Yep, all of that. I mean, I get it that some people love the angst of playing a punching bag of a MC–well, I actually don’t, but to each their own–but I hate it.

If you want to give us a damaged MC, great. ItFO does that and it’s awesome. FH does that, and it’s awesome. But we get to decide who they become within the framework of the games, including how the romances play out. None of the ROs are sadistic assholes and they aren’t screwing with our MC’s head and emotions.

But in some games, it seems the goal is for the author to just have the MC there for the NPCs to kick around for the hell of it, and the ROs shit all over them with no option to hit back just as hard.

It’s funny–in yandere games, I enjoy the sadistic ROs, because they’re supposed to be sadistic. So when they hurt my MC both physically and emotionally, that’s fine. That’s what I bought into. But in games where the author is telling me these are people who aren’t horrible while having them repeatedly hurt the MC without giving the MC a chance to hurt them back? No, that’s not acceptable to me.

I don’t like doormats. And if that’s what authors choose to write, then they need to give fair warning instead of pretending the MC can be shaped by the player and saying that there’s “romance” or “love” in the game–someone using your MC as an emotional punching bag isn’t love and romance. Nor is handing them a “romance” with someone who doesn’t give two fucks about them in the long run. Call it what it is–fuck buddies–and be done with it.

@agraysparrow

Do you though? You’re like half the comments in any given Wayhaven thread, unless you’re secretly very in love with the series, in which case excuse this comment

Given how many times I’ve played it, that I’ve purchased it for other people, and that I spend time writing fanfic for it, I’d say I love the series in some way or other. That doesn’t mean I don’t have problems with it (mainly that I feel like M-mancers are being fucked over intentionally, despite the character being one of my favorite ROs of all time). And when I get riled up, I vent.

@agraysparrow

Oh you’re allowed to have opinions, no one has said you can’t. There being push back on something you said isn’t me sticking a sign in the ground that says “No Chani Opinions Allowed”

This is all said with a decent amount of humour, mild ribbing and all that

No problem. I was more shocked that you had a problem with people complaining about romance options and how the MC is painted in those romances when this thread is literally, and specifically, made for that purpose. People have different takes on things, that’s just a given. And what one person likes, another hates. That’s probably why there’s another thread for romance options you love that other people hate.

[Asturias]

No. I mean meaningful choices and choices that provide some flavor text when chosen (have to edit my previous post for more clarity)

[agraysparrow]

“Meaningful choice” is something that’s hard to quantify, to be honest, because there’s no clear meaning to it

Does it mean a choice with consequences? How severe a consequence? Does it mean it has to lock out paths or significantly change the course of a story? Is it strictly a mechanical function, a narrative one?

Something like Disco Elysium has thousands of small choices or skill checks that, while often just flavour text, can significantly set the tone for a players experience with that game. Journey more than the destination sort of thing. My experience with it would’ve been vastly different if different flavour text came up

[batmansrobin]

I can’t speak on anything other than why I said that some WIPs would be better served as novels, in this specific case, The Night Market. When it feels as though the PC has little to no choice or overall effect on the places the story can go, that’s not interactive to me. It leads very little replayability - there’s no incentive to make other choices or build different characters because the choices aren’t taking the PC anywhere different or building on their story.

It’s not about having a specific vision in mind, there’s clearly nothing wrong with that. Plenty of great IFs do that and still have amazing branching. But some, in my opinion, have a specific story they want to tell with specific characters in mind and the PC is just along for the ride. And that’s just not what I enjoy about this medium. You can feel differently than me and that’s okay lol.

[agraysparrow]

It’s not that people are complaining, that I totally get, it’s the like… how to explain. The root source of the complaints? If that makes sense. Where the crux of the conflict is

It’s very much just a difference in how people engage with and what people want and expect, but it’s still startling sometimes, how very different those things can be

[agraysparrow]

Fair fair! Replayability has always been very low on my concern list, with both IFs and video games, though I don’t think I could articulate why very well. Not that I’m a one and done playthrough guy, but it really depends on the story (or just a matter of time, because hoo boy I don’t think I could do multiple hundred hour playthroughs of like, Baldur’s Gate 3, even if I really want to see all the permutations)

And in regards to Night Market and the Mc not having a lot of agency, I do think that’s supposed to be a point. The MC is being pushed and pulled and used just like how the Night Market itself is, which is a plot point and a theme that runs through quite a few of the subplots. Thematically I find it interesting, and I hope it’s setting up for a pay off in the next book, but that really depends on what happens in the future. I genuinely think that is a problem, though, and it’s a problem with a lot of series in this medium. So much first act set up that often times feels like you just spun your wheels for a hundred thousand words

I’m usually okay with that, but I do understand how some people aren’t

[EvilChani]

@agraysparrow

The root source of the complaints? If that makes sense. Where the crux of the conflict is

Well, you could always ask why someone feels the way they do about a given thing.

Take, for example, your assumptions that people are overly possessive of imaginary characters because said characters romance someone else in the game where they are featured. I think not assuming why people feel a certain way is a good start, because when you start pointing fingers and thinking their take is weird or unhealthy, people tend to respond negatively and nothing is really understood.

And I’m not pointing fingers at you specifically–I’m guilty of the same thing–I’m just saying that asking someone why they feel or think a certain way about something you don’t comprehend is usually the first step in actually understanding it, rather than slapping a label on it (example, “People are possessive of ROs”) and calling it a day. You still may not agree with them and see it in the way you described due to your own outlook and experiences, but at least there’s some steps in attempting to understand it.

In the end, you’re likely right that it is simply a case of people engaging differently than others, or that their expectations differ. In IF, I think that is even more of a thing, because for a lot of people it’s escapism and they expect to have some modicum of control over their MCs, or PCs, if you will. When there seems to be no control (especially in the context of romances and personal relationships), they feel like they aren’t getting an IF and are getting something completely set, in which case, why call it an IF?

Of course, the player has to go along in some respects for it to work–you can’t play FH and refuse the fact that your MC worked with the heroes in the past or didn’t suffer at the farm, and SSW doesn’t work unless you accept the damned stone–but everything shouldn’t be so set in stone and the author has to give enough leeway for the player to shape the MC. if the MC/PC is simply an observer in every respect while everything goes on around them, that’s when a lot of us feel like the thing should’ve been a novel, not an IF. If the character you’re playing matters so little to the story and the characters around them, it’s just not enjoyable to a lot of us.

From a writer’s perspective, I think it would be good if, for IF, they sat down and honestly thought about what part are absolutely necessary for their story to work and what parts are available for compromise in order to make the player’s experience the best one possible. Some authors seem to label things as “necessary” just because that’s how they want them and not because there isn’t room for some leeway, and that’s where the problems begin.

[RenataC]

@EvilChani

Well, you could always ask why someone feels the way they do about a given thing.

I just want to say that I love you Chani

I don’t like when an RO starts a relationship with another RO. Could this be weird/ possessive on my part? Maybe, because I’m a weirdo. ( )

But, in my point of view, the reader tends to feel like everything that happens in the story is “canon”. And, sometimes, without the weight of all the branching and choices, the author is capable of writing a romance between two NPCs better - I don’t think better is the exact word, deeper, maybe? - than the relationship between the MC/NPC. And it seems like this romance is the true “route” and the MC is just a third wheel between two characters who already have a beautiful love story. Sometimes I truly have the impression that some authors are more invested in the romances between NPCs than the possible relationships between the player’s character and their NPCs.

[Zyrios]

I finally pass out from exhaustion at six in the morning, come back to see a topic split, at least one mod present, and a near-argument that thankfully got averted by people talking it out.

Y’all throw some wild parties when I’m not around to see them. XD

[EvilChani]

Too long... and at one point I pasted django code and had to delete it, lol

@RenataC

because I’m a weirdo. ( )

We’re all weirdos. It’s just a matter of how we’re weird.

@RenataC

And, sometimes, without the weight of all the branching and choices, the author is capable of writing a romance between two NPCs better - I don’t think better is the exact word, deeper, maybe?

I’d say more satisfying. Two NPCs end up getting a relationship together pretty quickly, while the MC is forced to suffer being jerked around by the LI until near the end of the game before they get a kiss or get laid and that’s supposed to be your prize for participating (that prize sucks, btw). Also, in NPC-NPC relationships, the NPCs are allowed to push back at each other and the LI is actually nice and reaches out to the NPC to make things good for them, when that same LI shits all over the MC constantly.

In the case of Night Market, from what I read, Mal doesn’t put up with Milo’s shit and Milo has to do some making up for things he does, whereas the MC (from what I read) has to forgive Milo and accept the fact that Milo won’t ever really apologize or make up for their betrayal (and they don’t regret it, either); so it’s either choose to let the MC be Milo’s doormat or Milo walks. Just from that right there, it’s obvious what the author prefers.

@RenataC

the MC is just a third wheel between two characters who already have a beautiful love story

It’s obvious that that’s the case in TNM (and also in Andromeda 6 with Alisa and Damon, which pisses me off–thanks for ruining my MC’s romance).

In general, I end up feeling that way in any game that has a default romance when a LI isn’t romanced–it’s already written and there, and the LI is actually happy instead of being a miserable sadistic asshole like they always are with the MC. Making a MC who isn’t valued and is a third wheel or second choice, and ends up with an unsatisfying end with the RO seems like a waste of my time. Especially when I see that the RO is actually decent to the NPC they romance. Why the hell would I want less than that in my game?

@RenataC

Sometimes I truly have the impression that some authors are more invested in the romances between NPCs than the possible relationships between the player’s character and their NPCs.

I feel the same way. I know that not all authors intend that to be the case, but it still comes off that way most times. And ends up just pissing me off that my MC got a garbage “romance” that was nothing but aggravation, angst, and pain, while the LI was good to the NPC and it wasn’t angst-filled sadistic BS.

It’d be nice, for once, to play a game where the MC and LI got together quickly and took on their problems and the world together (not saying they can’t have fights with each other, but they should be together), instead of the MC being forced to suffer at the hands of the LI until the very end, with the author telling me that that’s love. No, buddy, it’s not. If it was, I guarantee I would not be married right now.

[HarrisPS]

I don’t think I’ll move the upthread posts at this stage because they’re a bit intertwined with each other and it’ll get more confusing, but please could further NPC/NPC romance chat go in this thread?

Romanceable NPCs with one another?

How do you feel about romanceable NPCs in a game, when you don’t romance them, romance one another? On one hand, I like the idea that characters go on to have lives without you, and I’ve seen this in Bioware games, done to some extent. On the other hand, I’m a little concerned, because for me, it would deal with bisexual/player-sexual characters. Example being, if you normally homosexually romance a character, who, if you don’t romance them, would be in a heterosexual romance, would you be le…

This is partly from my moderator love of tidiness… But also selfishly wanting to make it easier to find when I want to take a look and have forgotten where it is, as it took some time to track down this related post and subsequent discussion just now and it’s nice for topics to be grouped together for more easily referring to in the future

There’s also this thread about set/blank slate PCs and another set of links on that subject here for further discussion/reference.

[Zyrios]

Yeah, we made a bit of a mess in here, huh? This thread gets active frequently, but I’m actually struggling to keep up with the lines of conversation, this time. XD

[HarrisPS]

Don’t worry, it happens. I understand that people don’t always want to post about ROs they don’t like on WIP or release threads, and that feels like the nature of this thread which tends not to be heavily moderated - but I figure that when it comes to more general discussion there are craft or discussion points that will be of interest beyond the topic of this particular thread. In here they are more likely to get lost or be harder to track down (like the bit I linked to in the Disliked Tropes thread about NPC-NPC romances, where I had to search terms like “soulmate” a few times before finding it)

[anon67111821]

@RenataC

I don’t like when an RO starts a relationship with another RO. Could this be weird/ possessive on my part? Maybe, because I’m a weirdo. ( )

Nah. The relationship between MC and RO should always be at the first place, after all… you know… it’s main character and their romance option. The reader wants to feel important. Things like romantic relationships between ROs and others should be optional diversity if, e.g. the author wants to add some realism. But it should NEVER be more important than MC’s relationship. That’s my opinion about it. Amen.

[Mosie]

@RenataC

I don’t like when an RO starts a relationship with another RO. Could this be weird/ possessive on my part? Maybe, because I’m a weirdo. ( )

Okay so this is another heated topic in the community, so I want to say my opinion too. While I can sort of understand why people dislike this kind of RO, I will also say that I’m in the minority and that I like when things progress even out of my grasp. It makes the world feel more alive, in my opinion. Another reason why I don’t agree with this mentality is that I’ve seen firsthand people get really uh vocal about how they don’t like characters getting together because it feels like cheating.
I don’t want to sound disrespectful, I kinda fell in love with this thread because people have opened my eyes regarding different circumstances, but also eh I don’t think it’s healthy to feel jealous over fictional characters + you’re not entitled to treat authors like garbage because of something as silly as this.

@batmansrobin

It’s so funny that you say that the Night Market MC is set in stone because that (and Milo Next) are why I dropped that IF haha. I read a lot of it (up to chapter nine? ten?) months ago and I stopped when I realized how little “choice” we really have in the story or the romances. Especially when compared to works like TGR or FH that feel like true interactive fiction where the PC is a fluid, believable and moving character in an alive world.

I’ve noticed that a lot of WIPs are popping up and I think that’s amazing but truly - some of them, like The Night Market, would be better served as a linear story. Milo Next is the only IF RO that has genuinely given me major ick lol.

I love this comment because I agree with 99% of what’s been said, but also I have to wear my clown wig and say I don’t hate Milo. I found him to be really fun, maybe because he follows an archetype i like, more so than Gabriel.

@Zest

As for Gabriel… he does kind of do a turn around for no reason after threatening to sell us for body parts. He irritated me alot but what was worse was that he just didn’t care when my MC insulted him or was rightfully angry at him. Like hitting a brick wall.

I don’t agree with that, to me he felt pretty set in stone personality-wise, but like I said it’s another Leon-ish sort of situation so I completely agree. If anything, I think the dynamic felt disjointed because the progression just felt weird, so I blame that over his character.

Ah I don’t want to clog this thread with night market shenanigans, since it’s not a cog title, but I will say that reading different opinions about it is going to become my new amr mental popcorn. I have many issues with the game, but sadly I love titles which spur conversation. I feel like there are a lot of wips and games out there, but few are fun to talk about.

[RenataC]

@Mosie

Another reason why I don’t agree with this mentality is that I’ve seen firsthand people get really uh vocal about how they don’t like characters getting together because it feels like cheating.

@Mosie

I don’t think it’s healthy to feel jealous over fictional character

The first part was a joke I thought it was obvious. I explained my reasons after that. But I agree, let’s not discuss this further right here (or at all, if the direction this discussion will go is going to be ‘it’s not healthy’)

[Mosie]

It wasn’t a comment directed at you specifically, you just gave me the input to run my mouth sdfgk I stand by my opinions, but apologize nonetheless if my words came out sounding aggressive or pick me girl vibes. But yes, this is not the place to discuss that lol

[parisgracex]

Okay so trying to stay on topic of the thread now…I gotta say I really dislike manerkol (idk if that’s how u spell it haven’t played in forever) in the soul stone wars.

I can’t stand RO’s who are like them. I know they’re quite popular but yeah not my vibe at all lol

[Phenrex]

I mean, Manerkol is always going to be one of those very divided ROs. I enjoy him, in his toxicity and all, but that is because there is a space for enjoyment of him. Obviously I would never want to date a man like Manerkol in real life. I don’t think he is a ‘popular’ RO though to be sure, moreso split.

However, there is an appeal to someone who is unbelievably more powerful, older, and also confusingly to them interested in you. I think that Manerkol could be more interesting though if we got to understand why he hates dragons so much before the end of the second book. (As I recall he just never fully explains that? Why does he want to massacre the dragons?) Like, he shifts to me between being comically evil and also having a glimmer deep in the void that is his heart of something deeper? Though maybe that is just the optimism talking.

[Mosie]

Manerkol in theory is all a villain lover could ask for (powerful, sexy, powerful and sexy), but sadly he falls terribly flat because ?? Does he even have anything going for him? He just stands there. What are his motivations and what’s the point? I don’t know if he’s popular tho. I see people gush about the other ros more.