After such a long time, to finaly see this title released was… indescribable.
Words cannot express how excited I was, but having finaly finished it couple days ago, It’s safe to say it was more than worth the wait.
Knowing there is a sequel to look foward to eases my mind, here’s hoping there will be more interactions with Elya, the righful ruler and beloved sister.
But with the alternative being that Rade is attempting to seize royal power he has no desire for and doesn’t feel worthy of, i think it’s reasonable theory.
The real alternative here is in believing Rade, which was kind of my point, for if he was lying about his reasons that would make Mozoroff an extremely one dimensional villain.
It can be assumed that Rade, who felt betrayed by Sobik, wanted to take revenge on him. And, given that Sobik, as king, was virtually untouchable, assassination was the only realistic option for Rade. But you can’t just commit a regicide and expect that there will be no repercussions. To escape justice, Rade had to become king himself. (And all the power that comes with being king wouldn’t be out of place either).
To do this, he would have to marry Elya after dealing with her brothers. This would allow him to become a (relatively) legitimate king.
Should Rade have succeeded in his plan, he would:
They can, but what’s your point here?
This similarity is artificial.
I mean, obviously, whoever wants to overthrow the ruling monarch and take his place either believes that he will do a better job (“I’m doing this for the country and her people!”) or believes that he is more deserving of it (or, quite possibly, both). There is not much room for manoeuvre here.
And even if there was, having a couple of similarities does not mean that two people are alike, much less that they are exactly the same.
My point was, that Rade’s “envy point building” and “guild stage” have potentially happened off-screen
Considering how little emotion Rade shows throughout the book even in his inner monologues, I seriously doubt he ever had to steel himself for murdering/forcibly marrying Elya.
She’s nothing to him. When his second-in-command was felled all Rade felt was a little bit of sadness and, if it was the Marshal who killed Vuk, fear.
If he didn’t care much for his most trusted subordinate, why would he ever care for the well-being of some girl he had never met?
But your point was that, “unlike Rade the Marshal doesn’t murder any family members” when they very well can do exactly that.
The keyword here is “can”.
You, the player, can roleplay your Ending 2 Marshal as the absolute maniac, who kills and hurts as many people as game allows him/her to.
And just as well, the Usurper might have been a total “cinnamon roll”, played as forgiving, caring and merciful as possible.
And plenty of Marshals in various people’s playthroughs do exactly that.
Case in point.
Last time I checked, very few people had the achievement for reaching Ending 3 (or Endings 1 and 4, for that matter), meaning that most of these bloodthirsty and vengeful Marshals are “loyalists”.
The main problem with your reasoning throughout this entire discussion is that you take what players can (or will be able to) do and turn it into what the Marshal has done (or will inevitably do).
We’ve already went in extensive detail that Rade’s actions don’t match his claims. If that makes Rade a shallow and one-dimensional villain then too bad, but villains aren’t prohibited from being shallow and one dimensional. As such, this isn’t much of a counterargument to what the story shows us.
I fear you’re again addressing a strawman instead of actual argument. I’ve said those were specific aspects in which Rade and Marshal were alike. Not that they’re alike in general and obviously not that they are exactly the same. But at least it seems that we agree on the part that i’ve actually said.
Maybe. Or maybe he’s simply grown insensitive in the months it took him to organize the coup. I suppose we will see how much time MC will spend wringing hands over their own decision in the next book, but considering it took them less than a single evening to move from the idea of “maybe i could usurp my sister” to “i totally should do that, yes” i’m not really expecting all that much of it.
Yes, and my point here was that this keyword exists, in response to your absolute statement that the Marshal “didn’t murder members of royalty unlike Rade” which ignored precisely that, that the Marshal can very well do the same thing. I’m absolutely willing to accept possibility that some Marshals have spared their family members as long as you’ll in return accept that some of them haven’t. Rendering your original statement inaccurate.
…I am now wondering if it’s possible to get Total Victory, Victory (and Decisive Blow), and Total Loyalty in the same playthrough as Max Strength Elya (Strength 7, probably requires Warrior Queen as well as allowing her full control over the Ciril negotiations, or Envy 4+ (but I am not going for Ending 3 here so I probably won’t raise Envy above -3)). Even though I know that Strength 4 is the threshold for strong Elly in ITFO, I wonder what the repercussions of coming into ITUO with Strength 5+ will be (especially when combined with the most solid military footing possible one can give her reign in ITFO).
@Bacondoneright I just wanna thank you for giving us Lada. My stoic Marshal is gonna be waiting patiently for his and Lada’s reunion 
Does anyone know what are the numbers needed to break through Rade’s army in the final battle? Even with double formation fighting, high veteran presence, putting my retinue in the center and putting my 600 rangers in front the enemy center is the one that ends up pushing against my line, and while I can win the battle easily, I’d rather finally see what an infantry breakthrough looks like instead of charging forward in the Marshall’s Sally.
Regimentation 2, high veteran presence, and scads of archers (put your rangers with your archers and let them mow down Rade’s cavalry to avenge Belos’s Sally, then set them to winning the archer duel with Rade’s archers) get you a successful infantry charge (I do that in every playthrough, I haven’t the heart to kill Roach). I also played a Tactics Marshal, but using the Archer Trap (available to all Marshals) in Chapter 5 is very effective in lowering the numbers of rebels you’ll face in Chapter 9 (it also means you get the aforementioned scads of archers as part of the set up for the Archer Trap).
We’ve already went in extensive detail that Rade’s actions don’t match his claims
A single quote is hardly what one can consider to be “going in extensive detail”. And Rade’s willingness to dispose of Elya by the end of the book, when the situation has changed drastically, is hardly an indicator of his original plans for her.
Also, it’s your assumptions and theories versus the source material. No one in the story ever disputes Rade’s claims, MC isn’t even given an option to doubt him whatever directly or during some inner monologue.
Rade’s justification for his rebellion is currently a fact. This might change in the next book or maybe the author himself will come down and prove you right, but until that happens, Rade lying about his reasons is nothing more than a theory.
And, anyway, why would Rade lie about Elya in the first place? He could simply claim that he was promised lands and gold for his service, but ended up receiving neither. It is as good a reason as the one he ended up giving and comes with none of the risk of upsetting the Marshal in case s/he does care about Elya.
I’ve said those were specific aspects in which Rade and Marshal were alike. Not that they’re alike in general and obviously not that they are exactly the same
“Marshal is doing what the villain of the story has been doing. If the shoe fits, then it fits.”
Those were your words in the beginning of this discussion.
You claimed that the Usurper is a villain because he’s doing what the supposed villain of the story was doing.
I disputed both claims.
1)Rade isn’t (currently) what I would call a villain
2)and even if he was, the Usurper is nothing like him, meaning that he isn’t a villain either (unless you, the player, specifically take “evil” choices).
This is the very foundation of our current discussion.
Maybe. Or maybe he’s simply grown insensitive in the months it took him to organize the coup.
Rade was named the Butcher for the things he had done during the War.
And the only reason he even agreed to fight Erisians is because he was promised Elya’s hand in marriage at the time she didn’t even (or barely did) hit the puberty. Considering the very significant age gap between the two, it’s clear that Rade never cared that much about Elya, her feelings or well-being.
it took them less than a single evening to move from the idea of “maybe i could usurp my sister” to “i totally should do that, yes”
It took MC the entire book to arrive to that point. If you fail to accumulate the necessary amount of envy points (I believe, it’s 4), then your Marshal won’t be able to even contemplate such a thing.
Also, a thing to consider is that taking some of the options to be affectionate towards Elya will lower MC’s envy.
So either the Usurper had to feel envious towards Elya at every opportunity if s/he still held some love for her. Or MC had to feel somewhat cold and resentful towards Elya from early on.
Either way, this was not something the Usurper has decided on in a single evening.
Yes, and my point here was that this keyword exists, in response to your absolute statement that the Marshal “didn’t murder members of royalty unlike Rade”
No such statement was made by me. The closest thing to that I said was:
“More importantly, unlike Rade, the Marshal doesn’t murder any members of the royal family sans Vedran, but even then his ultimate fate is left up to the player.”
Any chance any of the nobles would still be inclined to support Vedran’s claim if he’s still alive?
Skipping him seems extremely dubious to me and I think a lot of nobles would realistically have a big issue with it.
Sobik was fool to try and alter the succession. He set it up so the claims of both his legitimate children are undermined. And then gave the army to his eldest natural child. And made the people that won the border war for him all angry and resentful. The more I think about it, the worse I think Sobik was at the whole king thing in addition to being a terrible human being. He definitely ranks first among the the villains of the story for me which I doubt is controversial.
That depends if there’s a currently neutral, sufficiently powerful, ambitious and risk-taking duke or count left in Kanton willing to throw his weight behind Vedran.
The thing is, a lot of the nobility we haven’t even met and a lot of the country itself wasn’t exposed to the civil war so there should be enough nobles and soldiers to go around for forming more than two or three factions in the future, with the current ones being:
The Usurper MC, Elya (potentially) and Rade.
And I suspect that Elya, if Vedran is alive and she’s not usurped (and if she is usurped and Vedran is alive in Ending 3, the Marshal will almost certainly cook up a big smear job of Vedran), will spread Vedran’s story far and wide (while she has no way of knowing that it is in fact Rade’s plan, she is the one that states at her coronation speech that Rade wants to murder all the Stiedrys): that he is an inept traitor (not just a traitor) and liability to anyone that supports him and only lives thanks to the queen’s and marshal’s mercy. While Elya will likely feel conflicted over it even though she is furious at Vedran for setting her and the Marshal up for death/fate worse than death (in the case of both Elya and F!Marshal), and the Ending 3 (and probably Ending 4) Marshal will have a choice as to how they feel about it, she will acknowledge the pragmatism in doing so (Ending 2 Marshal may even push her to do so, if Strong Elya doesn’t come to the conclusion herself). Rade also did plan to dispose of Vedran after defeating the royalists (and in Ending 1 he does do exactly that); I don’t know why another Duke/Count wouldn’t do the same (and I also suspect that Vedran won’t make the same mistake twice and will suspect his new “ally” of planning that whether or not it is true).
As I said before, he wrote the letter and made the plan believing that the altered succession wouldn’t cause problems because he believed he’d die after Belos married and had children (he’d had it for a while). He also wanted to make amends for his treatment of the Marshal (but being Sobik, he didn’t have the guts to do so when he was alive, or apologize for letting Mira dishonor them even posthumously). It wasn’t entirely logic he was running on.
This is correct, it takes over the whole book to get high enough Envy.
Although, if you choose Regimentation in Chapter 4, the veterans in the retinue (there are a few Kantonian veterans mixed in, Sokol is the main one) aren’t the biggest fans of Rade (while he didn’t have to be a doting father to his men to earn their respect [the Marshal has a choice between styling themselves as a fearsome and competent figure worthy of loyalty and respect, or styling themselves as a fair and reasonable authority figure (but the canon Marshal has shades of being a father/mother to their men whether they tend to be kind or harsh)], apparently he didn’t inspire the levels of loyalty even a non-Leadership Marshal has) for more reasons than him taking their booze rations (that’s the reason they give the Marshal, even though the Marshal realizes that’s not the entire reason). Not sure if Formation/Communication give similar scenes.
Also, did anyone else think that Rade’s main strength was always the same as the Marshal’s main strength? I am a Tactics main, so I thought it was cool that she (my main Marshal) and Rade were mirror images in so many ways. I found out Rade’s main strength was always his tactics when I tried a Weapons marshal in the open alpha.
I agree with you. It’s all part of a larger trend of how self-indulgent and responsibility avoidant he is.
What is the point of trying to downplay it as “a single quote” when you immediately in your next sentence acknowledge it’s more than that? And Rade’s willingness to dispose of Elya is not something that happens at the end of the book. Here’s the actual indicator of Rade’s plans for Elya, and another quote:
Even subconsciously, Rade hardly acknowledges the girl queen. She's irrelevant. A loose end. She is to be killed or otherwise stripped of power.
(this is while on the march to link up with Nado’s army, before the battle at the river. Note, there’s no indication this is in any way a change from earlier)
If you want to keep arguing that Rade wasn’t planning to kill Elya, how about you provide a quote to such effect, for a change? Of his internal thoughts on this subject, not what he might claim in public.
I suggest you replay the game. When MC and Rade talk about his motives there’s a long sequence of MC doing exactly that, doubting Rade both in internal monologue and openly. In fact, this is precisely the reason why MC calls Rade’s bluff and asks him to bring his alleged grievances to Elya: it’s because they believe Rade is full of shit.
Your entire argument that Rade isn’t a villain was that he isn’t committing villainous acts 24/7. Leaving the absurdity of such argument aside, you have admitted yourself in your earlier reply that certain aspects of Rade’s treason are shared with the Usurper’s. So please, don’t now try to claim that they are nothing alike – Rade and Marshal are alike to some extent, and as it happens this similarity is in what they’re doing and what’s motivating them to do what they’re doing.
Rade is overthrowing a ruling monarch out of personal greed, envy, desire for revenge and belief this is something he deserves. The Marshal is overthrowing a ruling monarch out of personal greed, envy, desire for revenge and belief this is something he deserves. Such are acts of a villain, and that makes them both villains. The Marshall potentially even acknowledges it himself:
*fake_choice
#[i]I could truly do it. I could take the throne.
#[i]I can't do it. I'd be no better than Rade.
(this following part is far from relevant but i’m simply curious)
You’d need to explain to me very slowly how exactly this statement differs in your mind from “the Marshal didn’t murder members of royalty unlike Rade”. As far as i can tell this is what your initial statement boils down to, after we exclude mention of Vedran, on the grounds you’re readily dismissing it yourself as optional act of the player. Which leaves us with:
– “[More importantly,] unlike Rade, the Marshal doesn’t murder any members of the royal family”
vs
– “the Marshal didn’t murder members of royalty unlike Rade”.
How are these two different?
It was discussed upthread whether Rade earned his nickname “the Butcher” for what he did to the Erisians, or his willingness to throw his troops into the meat grinder. I am now inclined to think it’s a combination of both–he was brutally effective against the Erisians, but troops under his command were less likely to return home (or return home alive and intact [by any definition])-- and not because he was in the most dangerous battles and positions (I suspect that the Marshal, being the dishonored bastard while he was the Duke, got that unlucky job). I think he either was good at thwarting attempted assassinations (him and Vuk and perhaps a loyal core of Reicestrian troops), or was able to convince the troops that there was a method to his metaphorical madness (even if he didn’t earn loyalty like the Marshal does even in non-Leadership playthroughs).
I wonder if that’s why the Kantonian vets in the royal retinue believe that Rade should “sod himself”, even if they don’t say that to the Marshal.
I imagine it helps a lot that he was winning. Soldiers seem to often be willing to tolerate a lot from their commander if they are led to victory. I think that if Rade starts consistently losing bloodbaths to the Marshal he should start to have issues with fragging and/or desertions.
Definitely going to be a interesting second book if rade and the rebels have been trounced in every battle. Certainly if nothing else he will be more dependant upon his freinds to the east in it.
And Rade’s willingness to dispose of Elya is not something that happens at the end of the book.
The end of the book is when his supposed thoughts turn into actions. He never sends any assassins after Elya or tries to harm her in any other way at any point in the story before that.
Even subconsciously, Rade hardly acknowledges the girl queen. She's irrelevant. A loose end. She is to be killed or otherwise stripped of power.
Even in your quote Rade considers stripping Elya of power instead of killing her.
How exactly would he do that? By dishonoring her? Forcing her to abdicate? No one would accept that, much less Elya herself.
The only possible way to have Elya stripped of power without killing or throwing her into the dungeon (from which she could be broken out by some sympathizing/opportunistic nobles) is to marry her.
Officially Elya would outrank Rade, but in reality, he would be the one actually in charge.
When MC and Rade talk about his motives there’s a long sequence of MC doing exactly that, doubting Rade both in internal monologue and openly.
I don’t remember MC ever doubting Elya part. Depending on what you choose, the Marshal is either disgusted by the prospect of their marriage or reacts with something along the lines of “of course Sobik would do that”.
Also, most convenient of you to ignore my question on why would Rade feel the need to lie about being promised Elya’s hand in marriage if he never intended to actually marry her. He could’ve just lied about not receiving the lands and gold he was promised and that would be as good a reason to rebel as the one he ended up giving.
Your entire argument that Rade isn’t a villain was that he isn’t committing villainous acts 24/7
Would you look at that, a strawman!
Rade’s only “evil” acts outside of staging a rebellion (which might turn out to be entirely justified), is pillaging the villages around Wrido, murdering Nado and… that’s it.
you have admitted yourself in your earlier reply that certain aspects of Rade’s treason are shared with the Usurper’s
I did no such thing.
Firstly, it’s a certain aspect. Singular.
Secondly, before I “admitted” to anything, I clearly stated that this similarity is entirely artificial. Whoever overthrows a monarch does so either for some personal reasons, for the “greater good” or a combination of both. There isn’t much room for maneuver here.
Finally, if you really intend on continuing with this, as I said before, Ending 3 Elya shares many such “totally valid” similarities with Rade.
Rade and Marshal are alike to some extent
Me and you are alike to some extent, despite all the differences in our origins, upbringing, current status, political and philosophical beliefs, etc.
No one is truly unique and special, despite what the current Zeitgeist might try to tell you.
You’d need to explain to me very slowly how exactly this statement differs in your mind from “the Marshal didn’t murder members of royalty unlike Rade”.
Sure, let’s remove the most important part from my original statement and watch it crumble, as it becomes exactly the same as yours.
Also the word “absolute” allows for no nuance, there can be no “buts”, no “sans”, no nothing. Trying to paint my original statement as absolute was entirely incorrect on your part.
Anyway, going Usurper doesn’t require Marshal to kill anyone from the royal family. Rade, lacking any sort of legitimacy, has no choice but to kill every Stierdy (Elya possibly included) if he wants to become king.
Also, Vedran’s fate is left up to the player to decide. And even when Marshal kills him, s/he does so in the official capacity of a Queen’s (wo)man, days(?) before s/he learns about a very real possibility of getting crowned in Elya’s stead.
Unless you intend to argue that all Marshals, regardless of the path they have chosen, are exactly the same as Rade in that regard, there’s nothing left to discuss here.
I’d imagine there being a big update to the first book to add in some new variables for the next book like what Fallen Hero is doing rn
Yeah, for Fallen Hero I’m specially looking forward to having reactions to the Heartbreak name, and also having some bug fixes like Herald not being able to avoid deaths at the museum and only avoiding the massacre.
Maybe even being able to get the eyes open achievement as long as you look into heartbreak’s eyes at some point and see the full story? Plus all the prior things of looking at the bodies and Anathema.
I just want more ratking interactions