Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!

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#1555

Nonviolent strategies worked against brutal dictatorships in (among other places) Serbia and Myanmar–and the British Raj was a much more brutal dictatorship than some of Gandhi’s detractors remember. Stalin’s empire collapsed under its own contradictions, not because anyone used violence against it. There’s more to nonviolence than the story of Gandhi. “Warm vibes” nonviolence has never worked, but that’s probably an unfair simplification of even John Lennon’s work, let alone the more successful activists.


#1556

I would think some of those war may have a merrier ending if the leaders involves had more compassion and willing to accept that there may be diversity within all beliefs , where compromise be made… In doing such, not only fewer lives will be lost, but a compassionate leader also win the heart and souls of even his/her enemy

Take an example from Saladin , When he reclaimed Jerusalem, he ordered his men NOT to kill and plunder (in contrast even to the crusaders).
When Richard the Lionhearted was sick with a fever, Saladin sent him a gift of fruit… when Richard’s horse was killed in battle, he sent a steed to be led to his camp?

In his dealings with the Crusaders, he allowed them to “save face” by permitting Christian pilgrimages to Jerusalem, even though he controlled the city. In an era when chivalry was just developing in Europe, Saladin won the reputation of being exceptionally “chivalrous.” He and Richard I each became the other’s “favorite” opponent.

I would think such is a great example of how we should be compassionate to even our “opponents” , where perhaps a greater good can be achieved if the leaders involve are compassionate souls :slight_smile:


#1557

Nope, sorry guys, no dice.

My build for the experiment was

2COM/1CHA Aristocrat
Ruthless/Devout/Cosmopolitan
Eclect
Low Anarchy

I began with a Shayardene name, which I converted to a Karagond one later for more Cosmopolitan points and cred with Nobles. I let the Harrowing happen.

Getting a good rep with the Nobles means Mikal de Rose dupes a Theurge into going off into nowhere. That means a 2COM build fights only 2 Theurges, so you can kill both of them and set fire to the forest.

I followed the winter strategy in my Steam guide, which will easily succeed in Chapter 2 (and get “Lost Not a One”!) and defeat Archon even if you get bad RNG with mules and theurge attacks, so this controls for those variables.

The Recruiter Arm, as the name implies, recruited as much as possible in every run possible. 3 runs with Breden and 2 with Radmar, to avoid Breden ruining the band’s morale.

The Trapper Arm also recruited in every run (3 Breden, 2 Radmar), but in both the last 2 weeks of Winter, it used 50 people to set traps.

I played Acts 3 and 4 exactly the same in both arms.

The Recruiter Arm finished Winter with 113 rebels and defeated Archon in 1 combat round with 131 remaining.

The Trapper Arm finished Winter with 94 rebels and defeated Archon in 1 combat round with 122 remaining.


In this experiment, there are a few things to remember:

  1. I kept Breden around. A Radmar-only run may have worked a bit differently, and may have favored Trapper a little bit more.
  2. I did not sell any mules to buy weapons in Chapter 4. I made this decision to have a better-controlled experiment, but both arms having more weapons might have favored Trapper. Or it might have favored Recruiter.
  3. A High Anarchy game with lots of soldiers and some traps may be better than only soldiers and zero traps, but it’s harder to make a controlled experiment for this due to Mule and Theurge RNG actually mattering somewhat, whereas for my build here it doesn’t matter. But if you want to continue experimenting, I recommend you do so as the following build:

2COM/1INT Helot
Compassionate/Devout/Homelander
Eclect
High Anarchy


#1558

@Havenstone What is the economic situation of the Hegemony? Is it operating on a deficit? What’s the unemployment rate? How heavy is the fiscal load on the various strata of society? And speaking of economy, will we have the opportunity to make money for our rebellion other than stealing or donations?
Also let me know if this is not the place for me to ask this kind of questions (or if you don’t want this questions asked at all).


#1559

For that to work the basic condition is that you’d need to see your opponent as basically still being human. A “privilege” helots do not enjoy in the Hegemony even from “well meaning” upper caste people like Olynna and Horion. Therefore, imho a helot mc doing such things is showing deference to his supposed “betters” and therefore weakness, not chivalry or strength.


#1560

If i am not mistaken, you meant a different in culture and beliefs between 2 parties who has a different cultural background right? Where the action of one party may be view as weakness by another’s party belief :slight_smile:

Well… in this case, if you had heard of the chinese literacy “Romance of 3 Kingdoms”, during the unification war against tribal barbarians for the Xu Kingdom… Regent ZuGe Liang manage to defeat the Northern Barbarian King 7 times , and capturing him in the process, but each time ZuGe will release the barbarian king in an effort to win the barbarian’s heart and soul… well initially for the barbarian culture such act of compassion was regard as a weakness since they prefer trial by strength where the victor always slay the defeated …
But by applying such pacifist tactic, the barbarian had then regard ZuGe as the only person they truly respect and keep their vows of never betraying the Xu Kingdom even after the passing of ZuGe :slight_smile:

But i think the initial discussion was about whether we should exercise compassion to Blood Mages and Xaos mutants , which i think we should :slight_smile:


#1561

And I think we should burn all them in STAKES Burnnnmnm
But still we are friends you and I :hugs:


#1562

Lol… yes yes of course, how are we not friend? :-):grin:

We are sworn friends even though our beliefs and actions may be difference :-):hugs:


#1563

I don’t think the story supports the above conclusion with respect to Olynna. And even with Horion I’d say it’s a slight stretch. Horion is the product of a highly privileged upbringing and has very little respect for helots, but I do think he’d stop short of rejecting their basic humanity.


#1564

Disgruntled former lieutenants? Oh no…

After I spent so long working out how to keep my lieutenants alive through the battle, they’ll betray me anyways.

Maybe I’ll have to deliberately get them killed when I have the chance.


#1565

Lol… it may never be that way, there should perhaps depend on our previous choices…

Even if they split out, they could still be our allies :slight_smile:


#1566

So I did one test playthrough where my mc sends Breden away and she says something that got my interest:

“When the dogs don’t find you, Tara? When the bandits of Whendward Pass don’t get attacked by Theurges? That’s when you’ll know you sent away a friend, not a traitor”

What’s that suppose to mean?

Another possible hint she has ties to Hegemony, but turned against them? Or Laconnier spy?


#1567

No Lacoste is not. I have ties with Lacoste and they treated Breden like scum.


#1568

My mc suspects that cute Simon or in Havenstone’s canon the far less cute Suzanne of being the Laconnier plant in our little rebellion.

I just think we see differently, the compassion of Olynna, while no doubt genuine screams “animal welfare”, not human rights to me. I don’t doubt that she is dedicated, but it is the dedication I witness all around me in the Green Party of people getting up at five AM to volunteer at the dog shelter before work. Is it genuine, yes, but all but the most lunatic fringe in our Party for the Animals would still balk at the thought of giving the dogs the vote.

Glad even you seem to think it is only a “slight” stretch. As I don’t quite see Horion ever truly respecting a (former) helot as a peer. Under the right conditions, he might struggle intellectually but always fail to emotionally digest it and Horion is one of the most open-minded and forward thinking nobles we are likely to ever meet. Which is why my mc really needs to smash the caste system and even then probably needs to wait for 20 to 40 years for the first generations who hopefully grow up without it to take over.

A bit like how it could have gone for Black people in the modern US with a more consistent and heavy handed government in charge for at least 50 years to do true reconstruction without allowing the Southern elites to regain most of their power and start the open wound with the festering legacy that was Jim Crow.


#1569

Totally, The look Simon The nun gave when I put the Shayardene monarchy flag gives me that idea.


#1570

I think breden was blaming your MC for paranoia and too eager to find a scapegoat when the sky is falling :slight_smile:

It is somehing like " when every shadow is an assassin, every dip of water is poison… that’ s when you turn your humanity away "

So i believe that was just frustration on Breden’s behalf for MC not trusting him/her … it doesn’t meant he/she is under any faction :wink:


#1571

That’s because to your MC, Shayard=Laconnier=evil. He tends to lump them all together in the same untrustworthy basket.

I suspect that if Olynna did not have to worry about her own potential execution, she’d have gone quite a bit farther than she did. She did as much as she believed she could get away with, and even still she gets brutally beaten and becomes a “disappeared”. I hope that she yet lives and that we have the opportunity to free her when we travel to Grand Shayard. My uprising at least could use a good priest who my MC not only trusts, but whose heart is in the right place.

Even me? arches eyebrow

A lot of the white folk who were instrumental in the advancement of Civil Rights within the US were at least somewhat bigoted themselves. Lyndon Johnson is an excellent example. He evolved a bit over the decades, but I doubt very much that he ever completely shed his racist baggage.

I don’t need Horion to be perfect. I need him to be supportive of my MC first and foremost. I know my helot’s Elect status will outweigh his birth as a helot in Horion’s mind, and that other helots won’t get that same respect from him. Nevertheless, that gives me an opening with which to change his mind completely because if my helot MC is Elect than his words are divinely inspired and Horion’s own faith will motivate him to listen and consider. His open-mindedness will be extremely helpful here, as will be the fact that he himself declared my helot to be Elect. Will he ever be the perfect ally to helots? Probably not. But I think I can get him most of the way there (assuming he still lives), and either way, he’ll be a useful ally to my helot MC who will use him to advance the cause of helots throughout the hegemony.

You can sympathize with the cause of Shayardene nationalism without being a Lanconnier spy. She’s both too transparent and too honorable to be a spy.


#1572

A perfect spy would look perfect honorable amd too naive ever to not raised suspicions


#1573

Yes, even you. :wink:
While I like you personally we’d probably be on the clock political adversaries in the mold of Reagan and O’Neill. :grin:

Well from his point of view it’s all true anyway. Much like the current US administration their collusion with a hostile foreign power, the Hallsurqs in their case certainly isn’t helping their case.
On a more personal level apparently, Hector is a Laconnier and there is no place in any group for both my mc and Hector Keriatou. If all their other actions and goals didn’t already condemn them in my mc’s eyes that fact alone would have done it.

Unless Havenstone lets us meet her again, we’d probably have to agree to disagree on that one… In any case, I don’t think my mc ever met her as I chose Carles at the start. And he actually is a traitor working for the Laconniers/Hallasurqs.

True, on the other hand the US freed the slaves top down. If my mc prevails the slaves will have freed themselves bottom up, which is a very different dynamic and as far as my mc is concerned too that newfound freedom is too precious to risk on letting sympathetic but disrespectful (former) elites, who in the case of Horion definitely have their own hidden agenda.
Horion is pretty much the leader and chief ideologue of the Leaguer faction whose goals and desires are at least partly incompatible with my mc’s as their vision would weaken the federal government to levels unacceptable to my mc.

In my mc’s case his own agenda pretty much guarantees that he wouldn’t be reliable.

Whereas my mc refuses to resort to peddling those sorts of lies. He doesn’t believe in the Xthonic nonsense and would rightly see assuming “noble” status as an impossible and undesirable trap.

Particularly not to those who want to be in charge of the government and political tutelage themselves, like my mc.

I’m not certain Horion would stoop to that, but then again my mc refuses to peddle the lies of the nightmare Xthonic religion even for his own, short term, gain.

Maybe not a spy then, but more of an “influencer” supposed to make us more malleable to Laconnier goals. If there is a spy it might be one of the two “helots” who came with them.

Save most of the purges for after the victory then. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


#1574

If anybody can be a perfect spy, then nobody is trustworthy and your paranoia will result in a series of Stalinist purges that will prevent the rebellion from ever getting up off the ground.