Choice of Rebels: Uprising — Lead the revolt against a bloodthirsty empire!

I absolutely disagree with that. You operate under the assumption that the people of the hegemony have this unquenchable thirst for representation and that’s absolutely not the case. It took millennia for people to mature enough to request and handle that responsibility and the helots are not even remotely to that point. And I have serious doubts you’ll survive a week when you step down after you strip a significant part of the population of their privilege.

The tiny difference with the schisms in our history is that they happened in other nations. In this case the people who disagree with you will be under your laws and they won’t have an army. As far as aristos challenging your position I think that they will not be that many and that they will stop soon after you stomp a couple and they will return to their balls. For some reason rich martyrs tend to be limited in numbers. And by the way those people will cause more problems to you when you completely destroy their religion instead of just changing it.

I didn’t say that it wasn’t viable I said it will be more difficult not less. And it will cause much more unrest.

I think a high INT mc will be able to create a coherent justification within the doctrine. Religions change and evolve and the priests that are pigheaded idiots are actually a minority. It will be difficult to usher in this changes but not nearly as impossible as you make it out to be. And it will generate far less resistance than any of the alternatives.

That’s not the only measure I’ll take to remedy that. Non-theurgy related higher learning will be made as available as possible.

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Which is why my mc is just going to shatter the church, smash the caste system, kill the eclects and ecclesiasts and cut the Xthonics off from state funding. The former Diakons are free to form as many new, lawful versions of the religion as they want and since they are cut-off from state funding the way they can do so is by actually ministering to their supposed flock who must be convinced to fund them of their own volition now. Furthermore leaving it up to former Diakons who have little experience with independence means the faith is almost inevitably going to shatter itself into 1234 different denominations because first of all the former Diakons would actually need to start interpreting religious texts and doctrine themselves, which will inevitably lead to significant differences, absent unified guidance by a church hierarchy and secondly they must now compete with each-other for funding and followers. Lastly my mc is going to open up the religious market for competition by any lawful religion and try to resurrect a few, such as the druids of the forgotten gods and foreign missionaries, except perhaps from Halassur will be welcome to preach too, provided of course they don’t preach slavery and a caste system.

We’ll see in the next game I guess. I still think that for a helot the difficulties of founding your own religion or cult of personality and the unrest it causes will not be very different from trying to take over the church when you’re just a dumb animal to most of the ecclesiasts even the patronizingly “sympathetic” ones like the late Olynna. As, again, people like her are preaching more for “animal welfare” than helot rights.

No doubt, but that will take time and I really do think that, particularly for helots, going with the church is a trap. I think I’ve already said it before the high-int mc might be able to create a coherent new doctrine but will lack the charisma and persuasiveness to ram it down the church’s throat without irrevocably shattering it, while the high charisma mc will be easily duped by shrewd and evil “advisers” on the reform of doctrine and reduced to nothing more than a mouthpiece for the slavocrats if they’re not very careful.

I still think that’s only going to apply to the aristo mc, if it applies at all. The only way to see is to wait for our dear author to write it, but I think this may just be one of those real differences between helot and noble mc’s that Havenstone alluded to.

I’m also not sure about that, you’d face fierce resistance from skeptics and the anti-clerical populations, just as much as my mc is facing it from the church hierarchy.

If you go moot or apella it is surprisingly easy to introduce that thirst into our own band and they’re mostly helots who have never been able to decide anything at all for themselves. Other populations like the nominally free city drudges and the merchants may hunger for it even more, as they are currently also denied a say in their own affairs by the nobles and the priests.

That’s why my mc would only step down at the end of the period of political tutelage when the new system is ready to take over. Much like the KMT would, theoretically and according to their own documentation, have been prepared to hand over the reins if outvoted in favour of another after the end of political tutelage.
I will agree that going for Grand Apella without a (possibly lengthy) period of political tutelage and reforms by the provisional government first is tantamount to suicide, real and political. Fortunately magically enhanced lifespans can be long indeed so if successful my mc might still live to step down peacefully, even if it takes a century to get to that point.

Non-theurgic learning and technology are indeed important cornerstones, nevertheless I think my mc will have the education system teach at least the fundamentals to anybody willing to learn, as much like the air rifles it may be vital in transitioning from a “warrior caste” to a population of citizen soldiers.

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I wouldn’t be so sure about that. When you attack a group they tend to rally together and in this case they will have an already established ideology. You think I will encounter all sorts of difficulties and you’ll just sail through and I think that on the issue of religion you will have more problems than I do.

You’re assuming a lot here. We don’t know the position of the various factions. We don’t even know the position of Olynna because she was understandably careful about expressing it. And besides when you overthrow the hegemony I think that the people that think “he is an helot therefore just a stupid animal” will have to make themselves a couple of questions.

If every change in doctrine would shatter a church the Catholic Church wouldn’t have as many followers as it as today. Regions change and evolve especially when there is a shift in society. You can see this in reverse in many Muslim countries where changes in government correspond to more radical interpretation and enforcement of religion.

I don’t think that will be the case but, as you said, we will just have to wait and see.

I don’t see why. Once they are not persecuted anymore what problem will they have?

They want rights, freedom and opportunities. That doesn’t necessarily translate to representation. And besides, being democratically elected does give you legitimacy but you said you won’t be elected so don’t be so sure that starting to empower local institutions will give you stability, especially if you need to continue stepping in to override stupid decisions they will inevitably make like voting to reestablish the caste system ( and someone will do that)

So will mine.

I don’t think air rifles will be as relevant as you seem to think they are but I’m not going to debate you on it because based on you previous posts you seem pretty adamant on them. I will only note that arming your population during a transitional period might not be such a great idea.

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Ok guys, I’ve worked a bit more on getting 2COM/1INT to beat Archon while keeping all lieutenants. I went Compassionate/Devout/Homelander Eclect Helot.

Only raid merchants after stopping the Harrowing. In the first week, raid Owlscap. Use 50 rebels to raid Yeomen for food (not doing this is what tripped me up in the last post). Also scout tax collectors and threaten Bleys’ family.

In weeks 2 and 4, raid Owlscap. Now you can extort Alaine. Winter is pretty self-explanatory aside from those things, but make sure you set up as many traps as you can whenever possible, even at the cost of recruiting. For 2COM builds, traps count more than soldiers.

I don’t attack Theurges in Chapter 4 because doing so loses Kalt. In return, you’ll fight 2 combat rounds. If you are fine with sacrificing Kalt to take out 2 Theurges, you’ll only have to fight 1 combat round.

It should be mentioned that Kalt doesn’t show up on my “Notable Rebels” screen, unless he dies. I’m not sure if it’s a bug, or what’s going on.

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It must be absolute hell to march through the trap-infested forest of a 2COM rebel leader… Well done on the playthrough. o7

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Haha thanks, and yeah the traps are the best. On my 2COM/1CHA run above, they killed 492 soldiers. On this 2COM/1INT run, they killed 466 (the Winter works slightly differently between the two builds, so I wasn’t able to set as many traps, but still got out a crapton).

Punji stakes and rock slides everywhere…I’m not sure what else we could use for traps, but it seems those two things punch above their weight.

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It can be buggy sometimes. At one of my playtroughs the notable rebels screen listed Radmar under the rebels who died list while in the game he was actually alive and having a conversation with my MC.

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How many of your peeps died in the fighting around the traps?

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Not sure how many died in that specific segment, but I began the battle with 403 adults and finished with a mere 139 (but soldiers are expendable, what matters are lieutenants…and traps). I’ll replay and let you know how many died in the first segment of the battle.

EDIT: Just remembered that I had 357 adults remaining after the first segment, so 46 adults died.

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Huh. Traps usually cost a lot more people.

Anyway, the way I figure it, if you have time to be setting traps, you have time to gather more soldiers to die for you instead.

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Hmmm, I think you may be right. I just tried to do it again in as 2COM/1INT, but this time I set zero traps and focused solely on recruiting. I still beat the enemy in 2 combat rounds without losing any lieutenants, and now have 210 remaining.

Then I guess trapping was suboptimal (or maybe it’s optimal at a certain X given Y troops). What probably happened is that trapping means fewer recruitment runs, so it reduces the difficulty involved in piloting the rebellion through the winter and balancing Breden vs. Radmar in recruitment.


Gonna work on 2COM/1CHA, which is tougher than 2COM/1INT. With 2COM/1INT, you’re optimally raiding Merchant Caravans, Architelone, and Nobles at the end. With 2COM/1CHA, you can’t raid Architelone, but have a wider range of paths to consider.

I do feel bad that I couldn’t find a use for traps though. I want to believe that it’s optimal for some situation in the game.

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Recruitment runs are better early on in the winter because of how each new recruit will make themselves useful over multiple weeks. Using that logic, maybe traps are instead better in the late weeks of winter? So a mix of both might actually be the best way to go?

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I’ve never tried a COM2/INT1 character, but my guess would be that it must be harder to play than COM/CHA1, sure you can do stuff like robbing the architelone, but isn’t CHA1 still more useful than INT1? After all it allows you to at least party reassure your followers without relying on Breden too much. Or idk maybe it’s just my preference, but I never make a character with CHA0, either COM or INT is the dump stat for me.

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This seems like good reasoning. Furthermore, early in the winter, your men are more stretched thin, and are scouting, stealing mules, getting food, etc, while at the end, you tend to have lots of mules, more regular food income, and a good chunk of men who simply go and recruit. So you have two processes going on.

  1. Early in winter, the opportunity cost for rebels going trapping is higher.
  2. As you mentioned, rebels obtained earlier can do more.

What I did find out from my trapper runs is that traps are VERY good at killing enemies. Indeed, I’d have trapper games where the enemy had zero troops remaining at the end of the forest skirmishing phase of the Archon fight.

Maybe there’s a middle point where having some traps serves as a nice supplement to having a large army.

I guess what I’m saying is that 2COM/1INT has obvious local maxima to choose (Caravan Raid in week 1/2/4, Architelone Raid), while 2COM/1CHA has no obvious local maxima in terms of raiding.

2COM/1CHA is good because it allows you to reassure and inspire your rebels, which can come in handy. For example, at the end, if your CHA is 0 and you attack the Theurges, either you lose Kalt or this happens:

*if (cha = 0) or (morale < inwoods)
The silence from the clifftop suggests that your followers there have fled rather than trying to drop anything onto an enraged Theurge.

With no one daring to come help you, it is only a few minutes before a vitriol phial clinks to the ground at your feet—and the world disappears in bluish-white light.

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That can be done with a COM2/CHA1 MC too. Actually if I recall correctly even the COM2 isn’t all that necessary for it if you take Elery with you.

Anyway @Havenstone, I wonder what are the stats of the NPCs? Do they have the same system for stats as the MC?

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I ain’t fighting the theurges with Combat - it’s not a Combatant’s job to do something like that. Instead, I just knock out the supply train and then fight on the mountain.

But that causes even more loss. At least that’s how it seemed to me.

No …not necessary , i selected few hunters and Alira and engage them in stealth, kill a mage and burn the supply train… i think no or not much casualty…
But going after the mages may cause casualty more

The ultimate point of the fight is to break the enemy’s morale. Breaking their supply trains is the easiest way to reduce enemy morale.

Besides, if you want to avoid losing troops, you shouldn’t be fighting that battle in the first place, except as a secret theurge ^^

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I’m okay with losing some people (or I really wouldn’t choose the fighting option), but it does matter to how many people I lose.

Anyway sometimes I don’t even get the option to attack the theurges or the supply trains, why?