Compare a SCI FI dystopian with no sense society because is all about action . With a Low fantasy with a well crafted and logical structure political game… Is like compared The Silmarilion with Gardfield.
Oh… i think there aren’t much difference between sci fi and fantasy, it is all about the theme…
Actually i can explain to you about the well crafted society of immortan joe as well , since i watch it fron youtube … but it would derail this thread, i can still paste you the link if you want to watch it though 
Will all potential band-leaders work as potential officers in Book 2 (“officer” meaning “can be sent to deal with stuff”)? Obviously we won’t have another week-by-week winter, but we mayyy need Diakon Edwer as our chief Charisma artist in place of Breden (for example).
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Like every real-world empire, ever. 
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Seems like these three are going to be the groups my mc needs to court heavily. The other two, priests and nobles he can probably safely discard provided he can be successful enough with those three.
Which for most people seems to mean either not being a person at all but rather blood cattle and farm machinery in the case of the helots or being forced into petty crime to survive as a drudge, who also run the risk of being harrowed when/if “caught” doing what the system ensures they must do in order to survive.
It’s time to tear down the caste system and shatter the church supporting it.
Not necessarily perhaps, but for my mc it is highly beneficial to encourage education and the spread of knowledge if he ever wants to build something viable on the ashes and rubble of the former Hegemony.
Oh no! You’ve been corrupted by the tiger. 
Well…if abolishing the caste system is basically the most important goal of one’s rebellion in the first place it would be incompatible with the established church, to say the least, and not something that can be done with “a bit of reformation”. I also don’t think the church hierarchy will even heed a supposed helot “eclect” unless said helot is prepared to visit massive amounts of violence on them, but doing that risks shattering the church anyway, thus rendering it useless as a tool for reforms.
Only if you are a noble and want only minor reforms. Otherwise I still think overcoming the resistance is going to shatter the church, which makes it much less useful to begin with.
Not that my mc would ever “thank” them for anything. Not even for being the best propagandists he could wish for what with their daily preaching against him throughout all of Shayard, if the in-game description is in fact correct.
Those taxes are sorely needed for rebuilding and even if they weren’t my mc would rather dump them in just about anything else, even a, groan, groan, groan “tax-cut”.
Besides not being able to suck money out of state coffers or being able to use the coercive force of the state to back up their moronic doctrines and disgraceful caste system is going to require the former Diakons and the few surviving Ecclesiasts to really do what they’re supposed to be doing and actually minister to their flock and change the oppressive doctrines that claims most of said flock isn’t even “people” or are all criminals to begin with.
You are scoring an own goal here, The Hegemony needs the most radical reforms possible and to do that it will be necessary to smash the caste system and shatter the organized church of Xthonos.
In spite of that, just from looking at our rebellion’s band members from our small-town backwards, backwoods part of Shayard the Hegemony is letting huge amounts of potential in human resources go to waste due to their caste system and lack of education for most of its citizens. And like any other slavery based power it is ultimately dragged down by the corrupting and de-humanzing institution of slavery too.
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So that old story again… I suppose not even magic can save you from that.
And I acknowledged that. But abolishing the caste system is not my goal and I’m very wary of radical reforms. If your objective is to turn the Hegemony in an secular egalitarian democracy overnight I’m afraid that’s not going to end well and we have plenty of historical evidence in our world that that’s the case. @Havenstone himself warned about changing too much too quickly.
I’m not so sure about that. When Linos proposes to declare you an elect your character makes the same objection but Linos responds that when the institutions become corrupt enough the angels will charge someone outside those institutions to restore order. So you can, at least partially, justify your appointment. Besides the main thing I hope to gain from the title is enough legitimacy to start a dialogue with the church to reach a reasonable compromise. And if they don’t play ball my policy is “apply pressure until they do”. I don’t think that would result automatically in the shattering of the church. Some amongst the clergy genuinely want change (Olynna, Linos) and the more pragmatic priests will see which way the wind is blowing and will adjust accordingly. With their help you could take control of the whole thing.
Sure. But there is a difference between some of them doing it and all of them doing it and that difference is observable even in game 1 in the number of fanatic helots they rile up against you in the final battle.
I think that by the time you become elect in truth and the leader of the Hegemony besides you will have enormous influence on how that money gets spent. Let’s not forget that the Catholic Church devoted substantial resources fostering higher learning and subsidising “social care” ( taking care of windows and children, charity etc.) and they still do. Islamic institution did that as well (though I confess to know less about it). In other words that money won’t go to fat priests. At least not only to them. You have to buy their loyalty somehow. But still, corruption can be kept in check and they can be made an institution with a modicum of integrity.
Let’s agree to disagree on that one because you seem pretty adamant in your intention to smash the caste system to the ground and I don’t think that’s such a good idea.
And that’s a big problem that will need to be addressed. I just don’t think that abolishing the caste system and outlawing the Xthonic religion is the only way to go about that. @Havenstone pretty much confirmed that.
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Yes, is not the only way. I have a middle ground maintain estructure but make him peasants not slaves becoming system in a feudalism system with the old Shayard version of religion.
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Sure, but anything more “moderate” when it comes to caste system reform risks triggering the festering wound that is the current caste system in India, that’s formally supposed to be irrelevant now, but is gaining increasing relevance and leading to steadily increasing discrimination against its lower castes as of late.
Of course, there is a very limited amount of things helot mc’s who don’t want to proclaim themselves or have themselves proclaimed to be “noble” might accomplish under even a reformed caste system.
Sharecropper is probably the best (former) helots can hope for under even a reformed caste system. Even the most skilled of them which would still waste huge amounts of potential.
It is also a free advertising and propaganda service to those already wavering in faith and sympathetic to my mc’s rebellion. Havenstone also said there is a strong current of anti-clericalism to draw on in the Hegemony too.
That’s the dream the reality is probably going to be an extended period of political tutelage and rebuilding and reforming. Then gradually introduce elections to higher and higher appella’s . But we’ll at least start with the model possibly pioneered in our rebel band and organize the village and ward appella’s even while higher policy matters are still under political tutelage.
That’s a nice story, but remember that Linos is a man possibly in fear of his own and more importantly his master and likely lover Horion’s life trying desperately to sell the (helot) mc on a bill of goods. All I’m saying is don’t count on the true picture being nearly as rosy an image as Linos is trying to paint there.
Yes, but you can already see between just Linos and Olynna that there are big differences in opinion on what that change should be and even among the reformers, perhaps especially among the reformers allying with one risks alienating the other. Perhaps more damning neither of those two seems to favour abolishing slavery and the caste system at all. Olynna’s compassion and charity are more comparable to animal welfare than true human rights or dignity, as the mc themselves can remark on. Which makes it all the more unbearable.
As for Linos, I’m not sure he has ever really thought of helots having a place in the new order he envisions before he makes his pitch to the helot mc in clear desperation and possibly fear.
In any case those sorts of things especially with the authority of the Thaumatarch and his Nine over the Church gone the already manifest differences of opinion among the clergy alone seem like a recipe for a Schism, especially because the faction(s) among the priesthood that you do not side with as “eclect” will just go off and find their own “eclect”, after all there used to be almost a dozen of them, and that “eclect” will almost certainly in the case of a (fomer) helot mc be of a higher order of telos then the mc eclect.
I just don’t see how you and our resident tiger are going to keep the organized church unified enough to make it be of as much use as you’re hoping it will be. Again moreso with a (former) helot as the principal “eclect” but even aristo mc’s probably won’t be able to avoid significant schisms entirely.
The trouble is that a (former) helot mc also loses out in that system as they are not nobles and while they can proclaim themselves to be whatever they want as long as they hold enough power to do so, proclaiming yourself to be a “noble” does not mean the other “nobles” will suddenly forget where you came from and treat you like one. Even those few who might will then expect you to play the game by their rules, not yours putting any new “noble” at a significant disadvantage. Lastly in case you don’t proclaim yourself to be noble but accept ennoblement from some other source that has the additional huge drawback of acknowledging that source, for example the Laconnier claimant, to have legitimate authority over you.
Of course Mara being an aristo will have far less trouble here, but in general if your get the helot mc powerful enough to dictate policy you’re going to want the (former) nobles to scramble to keep up with your new rules, not weakening yourself to playing by theirs.
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Which isn’t a concern for aristo pcs who don’t want an egalitarian society. My COM 2 arrogant noble pc embodies noblesse oblige far more than most of his kind, he wants the helots to be free and to have inalienable rights, but in his mind ultimately they’re still peasants and should stay peasants.
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I am Spanish and many of our noble lines came from commoners that fighting hard against Muslims kingdoms. A noble title that cames from the right of conquest is an admirable one . At least in Spanish culture. But I will give you a British example in XIII one Scottish farmer Saw a men dressed as a soldier being attacked by several bandits he doesn’t hesitate and helped the soldier Whom happen to be the new king . Of course he became noble and even nowadays his family has the special honor of Washing the hands of each new monarch in the day of his her Crown. Then you have Carlo Magno situation too or several Bizantine emperors empress being commoners.
A good helot could ascending to nobility and even rule. It has happened all time. However, yours certainly not Due his personality and way t act.
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As I said, though it may have referenced Mara specifically instead of just all nobles of sufficient arrogance.
I did already state that unless the helot mc simply proclaims themselves to be “noble” now (and I’ve already noted the drawbacks of that too) the process of ennoblement requires recognition of and subservience to a higher, worldly authority. My mc would (grudgingly) accept a functional Grand Apella to be such an authority, but certainly not some feckless Laconnier toff or prince nippletwister.
No, I suppose my mc is pretty far removed from what the Hegemony and the provincial nobility would consider a “good” helot to be. Oh well on those terms it’s more fun to be an evil one I suppose. 
Hear that one a lot from your own enlisted subordinates, cascat? 
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Well there is certainly a balance there. I can think of several relationships that have little to do with the MC that you introduced (Zavd and Elery, Breden and Ciel, Radmar and Pin). Certainly mayonnaise preference and even hopes and dreams in general are probably TMI given the situation. Even if you asked, they would probably say something like “is this a test? Do you want me to like mayonnaise? My favorite flavor is please don’t kill me/let me starve/get me killed!”
I know better than to ask them banal questions about their personal lives that I know they don’t want to share with me anyway. On top of being an overall unpleasant experience for them it would also start them in on questioning my mental state.
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I would add to that another layer and that is granting helots a certain amount of rights (like the right not to be raped or killed arbitrarily and without consequence) but yeah basically that.
I agree that’s a risk and it would be your job to make sure that it didn’t happen and you can pass and enforce laws to that effect.
That depends on what kind of reforms you introduce. You can provide avenues of vertical mobility that allow you to change your social position based on your merit. Maybe not become a noble but a yeowman, a merchant, a priest or, if worthy, a theurge. They would surely encounter discrimination and prejudice but, again, with proper laws in place, it could be done.
You will be able to draw support from all sorts of places. I’m not saying that the way I will do things is the only valid one but I do believe it will be the least disruptive. Also anti-clericalism doesn’t necessarily mean anti-religious. Your followers are against the corrupt Ecclesiasty but they are still queasy about breaking canon.
So basically temporary tyranny. There are a couple of problems with that solution, like I’m dubious that it will be an effective way of fostering the growth of a democratic spirit amongst the population. But the main problem is that where you could lean on the already established institution of the church you will have to use force to maintain order and between the two methods the second one is by far the one that will threaten the overall stability of your new government the most.
So your thesis is that Linos compromised everything he believed in to the point of abandoning his position and following Horion in a state of practical exile (when he could have turned him in at any moment for his seditious tendencies) out of a fear that, in the case of a friendly welcome by the MC, would have been completely unjustified. I’m sorry but that’s just not my read on him. Consider also that he appears genuinely hurt and disappointed if you laugh in his face as a skeptic. Besides a 2INT mc has at least a basic knowledge of Xthonic canon and if his proposal was so ridiculous he would have noted so. Also, and I could be wrong about this, I seem to recall that if you treat him badly (and in so doing you give him an even bigger motivation to try to appease you) he doesn’t offer to make you an elect at all. Of course it will be challenging to make others acknowledge your title but not impossible.
Factionalism will be a problem regardless of the approach you choose so I don’t think this particular critic invalidates my position at all. It will be difficult to consolidate power for everyone.
By the time my helot MC will have risen to power he won’t be an helot and he will not ask to be made a noble because he will be the elect of the angels and the Thaumatarch of the Hegemony, therefore being above everyone else in society and if someone speaks or behaves forgetting that little fact he or she will receive a gentle reminder in the form of scorching vitriolic fire.
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I give for granted tht the commoner status go with a new laws with rights and obligations for them. And that includes of course no longer be cattle. Freedom of marriage and have babies or not and possibility of abandoned the lord lady territory after pay a fee or something similar. And certain degree of free education and healthcare provide by Church.
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I agree with everything except for the part where basic healthcare and education come from the church. I think it’s better if that comes from the state. I don’t like the idea to give the church more influence than they already have and I plan to use the education system to spot promising minds that could become theurges and I don’t want any faction anywhere near that process. I plan to have theurges to be under my direct and absolute purview.
I am going for a feudal system so there is no way my system could handle a healthcare or education even if is limited. Church will be controlled and part of nobility exactly as medieval europe. Where church take care of both.
The things people do for love real and fictional will never cease to amaze me. So considering whose life we’re potentially threatening I do believe that would get Linos to make a desperate gamble. As Linos well knows he doesn’t have a direct line to the “merciful” Angels and religious “evidence” of divine providence is far more open to interpretation then even most legal evidence. Therefore Linos is basically free to concoct whatever story he wants and if he wants to disavow the mc later on he can do that too by basically just claiming to have read one of the tea leaves wrong.
A good actor and I think an Ecclesiast in a court position like Linos must be a good actor can easily simulate that. Also the hurt is probably genuine as he’s still fearing for his and more importantly Horion’s life, the disappointment…well your mc and mine have different takes on that one.
Well, Cata has worn me down and convinced me that given time political tutelage might have worked for China. So basically all we’ve got to do is succeed where Nationalist China failed in even more adverse circumstances, easy right? 
Every state uses force, or at least the implied threat of it to maintain order in the end. Besides, I think the church will split, no matter what once you take out the Thaumatarch and the Nine. While you could probably elevate the faction of priests you agree most with to the new state religion it is not going to be anywhere near as established, monolithic or powerful as the old church used to be. Therefore in my opinion and particularly when playing a helot “eclect” mc you’re signing up for all of the troubles of the current nightmare Xthonic church at greatly reduced benefits and likely increased costs in order to bribe whatever faction you consider less onerous to even begin to recognize a helot eclect.
Fair enough, I just don’t see the diminished church as being able to offer much to even devout helot mc’s, let alone simply opportunistic ones who cynically merely hope to use it as a pillar for the new regime. Honestly I think for the effort that is going to take you’d be better off building a new religion or just going with your own cult of personality from the start.
So you’re basically going for your mc as a temporary tyrant too. You’re just using “eclect means whatever the hell I need it to mean” and claiming you talk to your imaginary friends, instead of “secretary general means whatever the hell I need it to mean”.
So now you don’t want to use the church? I mean what could possibly go wrong. Your mc is the eclect, right the chosen one of the “merciful” angels. 
Keeping up the myth that theurgy is supposedly a blessing from the Angels is the whole reason for the organized church to exist. It is its very foundation and the thing the nightmare caste system rests on. If you’re going to break with that fiction and just teach it in normal schools then you are, in fact and effect, breaking the organized church, eclect or no.
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All right, going to try to do 2COM/1INT and keep all my lieutenants alive while beating the Archon. I was able to do it as 2COM/1CHA (my strategy was discussed earlier in the thread), but 2COM/1INT will require some changes in tactics. I’ll attempt some runs and report back with my findings.
EDIT: Almost did it…I won in 1 combat round w/ 120 rebels remaining (Traps are a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural), but Kalt sacrificed himself, so I didn’t truly do it. Gonna retry.
EDIT2: I was too lazy to replay the winter, so this time I just didn’t attack the Theurges. I won in 2 combat rounds with 82 rebels remaining, and all lieutenants alive. So I fulfilled the terms of my challenge, even if a more elegant way to do it would involve pissing off Kalt a little bit so he doesn’t sacrifice himself for you.
So I’d say that for any 2COM build, traps are worth more than people. Rebel soldiers will come and go, but your lieutenants are the soul of your struggle.
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Definitely.
But all the more impressive if you can actually pull it off 
Sure. But that’s not the only thing they use. You can actually make people comply with your rule if you have a basis for that rule. And divine mandate is a very compelling basis. What you get from that is that people don’t resist or even think to resist you and that saves you the use of force which often causes more problems than it solves. Force is not a reliable tool to keep order over time but religion is.
You’re assuming that the church will remain split. While it’s true that during the transition the church will lose influence, after you rise to power you can work to restore that influence by incorporating or silencing dissenting factions and heretics. Once you do that they will have the same influence of before. More actually because you will have reformed it and you will have purged the corrupt elements that alienated such a large part of the population.
Good luck with that. That’s gonna take more effort not less.
Nothing temporary about it. I will be a tyrant for as long as theurgy will allow me to prolong my life. Also I’m going for “you’ll do this because I told you to” and than making my priests say “you should really listen to that guy because he speaks on behalf of imaginary friends that are always right.”
It’s not like I have to use the church to do everything. Priests defer to Theurges not the other way around. It’s already like that and like that it’s going to stay. Theurgy itself will remain remain a gift the angels bestow upon their chosen to bring order to the world and those chosen will answer directly to me, the elect. Also I don’t plan to use normal schools to teach theurgy. I plan to use normal schools to identify bright minds that would than be offered the chance to learn theurgy in the capital under my supervision.
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That’s why, over time it needs to be reduced and phased out in favour of popular sovereignty in the self-governing new districts and provinces. In the end that is a much better basis then a “divine mandate” because it will actually allow you to get out of the head of government position without being killed, eventually.
Still if you must have divine mandate just claim it from your own religion.
If our own history is any guide schisms are far easier to cause then they are to mend, which is nearly impossible. To get your preferred church to be the dominant one again, particularly as a helot eclect you probably need to constantly stamp out more proper (former) aristo eclects. Time and effort that could be better spent on other efforts and rebuilding, at the very least.
It’s a viable option for the high charisma mc at least and if successful the payoff will be far greater. As a bonus at will allow to smash the caste system from a more religious motivation, if you so desire.
“Proper” aristo theurges of the the appropriate telos, which a helot, any helot is about the farthest thing away from. Some priests may be willing to swallow your claims if bribed hard enough, but I think they’re going to be a small minority.
You’d still be missing out on potential if you do that though not to the degree the current Hegemony is.
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