Choice of Rebels: Stormwright (XoR2 WIP)

Choice of Games games CoG Works In Progress
989

Fair enough to ask anyway…but I’m afraid we’re still a long way out from my giving a halfway comprehensive answer to any of those questions.

I’ve always said that I want to give the option to try to recreate the Hegemony with you on top; that’s far too common a rebel story in our world for me to leave it out. You can also aim to be a monstrous tyrant who’s marginally less oppressive than the Thaumatarch and call it a win. I’ve noticed on my recent re-read of the XoR threads that @idonotlikeusernames’s main MC has been increasingly prone to claim the moral “high ground” with comments like, “Even if I murder half the population, the survivors will still have less to complain about than they do under the Hegemony.” :slight_smile:

But it will also be possible to create a genuinely less murderous order at various scales. I’ve been emphasizing that the political, economic and social structures need to be consistent with the early-modern-esque setting, where idealistic MCs have fewer lessons and experiences in how to outwork ideals of equality and solidarity than we do in our world, and vastly less state capacity than we take for granted today. You won’t be able to conjure a full-fledged social democratic welfare state out of the imperial wreckage.

But it should be possible for a low-anarchy MC, building to some extent on one or more of the classes with administrative experience (the nobles, priests, and/or merchants, in descending order of capacity) to provide a moderate boost in state capacity, and end up somewhat better at managing your population than the Hegemony. A nonlethal blood tax system will never match the Theurgic capacity of a Harrower-state… but in combination with a more effectively centralised system for strategic management of blood, a high-state-capacity MC may be able to (barely) avert disaster and hold their own without resorting to Harrowing or child sacrifice. I’ve never wanted all the options to be horrorshows, even if none should be without their tradeoffs and costs.

Even a high state capacity MC will not be able to manage (or even conceptualize) “the economy” much better than mercantilist early modern states did. And while there are enough examples of republican and small-scale-participatory forms of governance for you to start innovating toward demoocracy, it’s unlikely to look much like our modern polyarchies.

I’ve hinted at the identity of many of the factions, but won’t give a full list until I start writing Game 5. Not all of the factions will exist in every playthrough. Others you won’t meet at all until later games when you spend more time in other parts of the Hegemony.

24 Likes
990

Where do the mass of lower ranked telones, like Bleys fit in? Cause to my mc they seem to be a vast, untapped and under-utilized resource and at the lower end, like Bleys, they are low enough on the Hegemony totem-pole and derive little enough benefits from its current power structure (Bleys seems to enjoy even less benefits and the alastors) to be eminently redeemable. As a bonus it seems like a lot of the other factions may hate them, which may further narrow their options to my mc’s benefit.

Unlike some of the merchants they are also state administrators already and exactly the sort of people my mc needs.

Particularly since the nobility and the priesthood are absolute no-go’s for my mc since the vast majority of those refuse to even see people like him as human.
Even Horion sometimes gives off a strong vibe that he sees the smart helot as an oddity to be displayed in something like Barnum’s circus in his vision, “the human encyclopedia” and certainly has trouble viewing them as an intellectual equal.

True, but between wards, floating palaces, inefficient plektosis for terror weapons and various unnecessary luxuries for the higher classes/castes there seems to a lot of waste in the system that can be cut or replaced with lower cost alternatives, like another canal/wetland system on the Xaos border at only slightly higher risk. It would likely require a bit more efficient administration than the Hegemony currently has, but it is exactly the kind of administration former telones like Bleys seem very well placed to be able to run.

8 Likes
991

Hmm, interesting answer. Based on that, I have a few questions. First, to what extent can democracy and state capacity be developed?

(For example, to what extent are the right to vote and freedom of speech guaranteed? What are the similarities and differences with the night watchman state that we have experienced in history? What kind of statistics can be obtained with what degree of accuracy? What kind of military/police/judicial system will we have?, etc.)

Also, what is the blood tax? Could you tell me about the taxation system as well?

3 Likes
992

For IRL historical examples one of the key limitations was travel time for elected representatives. One of the favorite objects of scorn in the current US system is the electoral college, which is explicitly a consequence of the tyranny of distance in the undeveloped early US republic. Even the selection of Washington DC and various state capitals was down to travel time for representatives as the prime concern.

Now in the Hegemony we have the potential for blood powered flight and communication, but that has to be balanced against the other demands of running the empire, like defense. Considering how vast and rugged much of the current Hegemony is, and how much of its strategic logistics is fueled by theurgy, I’d expect you would have to grant a wide degree of local autonomy and accept relatively long terms for “federal” representatives.

I think the cost of what the blood represents also has to be considered in its employment. Even if you can afford the blood to fly back and forth are the people of Rim Square going to happy with their blood sacrifice funding their local (or worse a non-local) politician’s whistle stop flyby campaign?

You then also run into the problem of who can be an effective politician. If theurgy grants such a massive electoral advantage only theurges can get elected you get right back to a magocracy by democratic means.

7 Likes
993

On a local level, all the people about 18 year will have the chance to vote on all the local matter ( to make it more manageable a select day of the month all the decisions are to be voted and a loyal sheriff to guarantee no rebellious moves go unchecked and a direct line of communication to the state level).

On province ( state) level people on local level will elect one representive to to council of said that Provence, we’re combine with sheriff report ( monthly ,for how effective polices are and which problems plague them the most) will handle the day to day running operations of the said state, elected period can your average 4-5 years and to ensure good groverence issues must be published and how each representive voted basically news papers.

On national or kingdom level one representive will be elected by the council of each state to act as a republic decisions making body and it’s day to day function, 3 representive will be elected from said body by vote ( yes you can vote your self) then these 3 individuals must run a election and who ever happened to be the highest voted will get to the first among equally ( president or a PM) ,second guy natural the opposition faction leader and last but not the least 3 guy is just a extra options so it didn’t end up been a civil war as there are only to side and can be given a extra vote to break the dead lock.

3 Likes
994

Problems I see with the system you propose:

  1. It expect uniform political systems at the local level. Even in a settler state like the US you have a variety of local power configurations, and with the disparity of cultures in the Hegemony I think you should expect some inscrutability in local power arrangements from the Hegemony level.

  2. Seems like you expect the local ruler and the representatives to be the same person. I think that is an impossible amount of work especially given the travel times invovled.

4 Likes
995

At local level all people vote on any given decision during there monthly meeting so a local council of sourt. Then anyone can run in the local election to represent there village in the council made of similar representive from other areas of the Provence ( state) there permanent job is on the Provence level as people are self sufficient on the local level, he or she is only there to make sure there village is not forgotten and is help by the local sheriff monthly report to better inform the select representive of its want’s and needs.

2 Likes
996

Hmmm, let’s ask the developers instead of just guessing at us. What exactly are “republican and small-scale-participatory forms”?

997

20, if we go by the appella system. The magic number in the Hegemony seems to be 20, not 18. In the traditional Shayardene moot it was 14 but my mc would prefer sticking with 20.

Whatever elections we do implement probably won’t be liberal democratic, just getting to a flawed democracy will be at the higher end of the spectrum.

Best I can come up with is staggered elections, so the public would only directly elect their local representatives, who would then elect the next level up, etc, etc, for however many levels are required until we get to grand appella.
Incidentally staggered elections also give my mc and a possible vanguard party ample opportunities to put a thumb on the scales.

4 Likes
998

It is possible to have local, state and national election. If 40-60% of the population is literate or at the very least know there rights, and wide spread introduction of the printing press and safe and fast rood network. All these are essential for a well functional democractic nation

USA was still a democracy in 1800 so Ya it kinda possible if people are invested enough or else it just got hijacked by one group and everyday people disillusioned by the system.

1 Like
999

In the Hegemony that is just 15% overall, more worryingly it is as low as 0.5% percent or lower among the people, aka the helots my mc wants to reach most of all. Education will have to be a big focus but it also seems political tutelage may be a bitter necessity, that it helps my mc keep control is a nice bonus.

1 Like
1000

For indirect democracies as modern states have, you need decent education systems and the technology to spread information quickly and reliably.

We can’t simply transplant our form of government into the game; the setting makes that, if not outright impossible, incredibly impractical.

6 Likes
1001

Very likely will stay arrogant.

Any helot that takes up arms for her will at least be a yeomen and will always be free. Breden is dead. Elery will have a place of honor in Caroline’s service available if she continues as she’s begun. Radmar can have a nice farm.

Mostly nobles. She’s decided to teach Yebben too, but that will be an exception. Priests would be the second choice.

I think she’d be on board with something like that.

Quite possibly. Shayard in its current Archonty borders is larger than she can really grasp at this point, and she’ll likely be delighted if she can establish an independent state with the entirety of the Archonty’s territory.

I think that was mostly just something she resorted to in order to have enough cash to feed and arm her people. If she hasn’t had so many children she’d have left them alone as well. It was more, I’m not going to offend the yeomen, the priests or the aristos whose support I want most, so that leaves the merchants. She’d prefer not to mess up trade to a massive degree, so I think she’ll tack a different course from here on out.

2 Likes
1002

That will depend significantly on how much territory you’re trying to control. It’s easier to successfully experiment with participatory modes of government (or to build up an effective civil service and census-taking capacity) in city-states and small republics than it is in a big sprawling realm, let alone a continent-spanning empire.

It will also depend on the choices you make about the role of Theurgy and your priorities for blood use. As @cascat07 noted, institutions for large-scale participation are helped by mass communication and reliable long-distance transport, both of which would be significantly reduced in many lower-Theurgy post-rebellion futures.

Have we experienced a night-watchman state in our history? I’d always thought of it as a libertarian aspiration/thought experiement (or an epithet for statists to hurl at their critics) rather than an actual way that humans ever governed themselves.

Few, with very blurry accuracy. Like most pre- and early-modern empires, the Karagonds delegate a lot of detail to close-to-the-ground local elites. The center issues big-picture decrees on how much it expects its provinces to provide (in gold, grain, recruits, blood, etc.) and the provincial authorities do the same to lower-level elites, with the whole process based on very rough and blurry knowledge that sometimes leads to excessive, impoverishing demands and sometimes to underextraction of available resources. The telone tax collector system is a massively unpopular and only partly successful experiment in trying to increase the center’s ability to count things at local level. You can try to build on that, with consequences for your own popularity.

The area where the Hegemony’s admin capacity and central statistical management are strongest is undoubtedly the interprovincial grain trade, and the system of inland waterways on which it depends. Karagon (and, to a much lesser extent, parts of Wiendrj and Nyryal) are fed by the “breadbasket” of Shayard; that requires a constant stream of grain barges up the major rivers and canals, and a huge amount of state capacity goes to trying avoid disruptions to that system.

There will be a lot of options there – I don’t think I could list them at present.

A hypothetical non-lethal alternative to Harrowing. Right now, the Hegemony harrows about 4.5% of its adult population every year to keep the Theurgic lights on. (That’s another number that they don’t have the statistical capacity to calculate with any degree of precision, of course. Patient code-readers will be able to develop a clearer sense of the numbers underlying the Hegemony than any Thaumatarch has ever had.) In theory, if you could tax 100% of your adult population by drawing their blood every five weeks or so, you’d go a significant way toward making up the aether you forgo by not taking the body’s aether-rich tissues (brains, mostly, though also marrow and eyes).

Taxing 100% of the adult population is of course a governance feat that no one has ever managed in our modern world, let alone in early modernity. I think an exceptionally good effort by a post-Hegemonic state that’s invested heavily in building up (and avoided tearing down/disrupting) its administrative capacity might manage to regularly draw blood from around 50% of its adult and teen population. (And that depends in part on what share of the population it keeps in bondage on big plantation farms; you’d manage a higher tax rate from helots than free yeomanry, let alone slum-dwellers.)

“Republican” is anything that’s not a monarchy; the gameworld has some of those in its history, and among both the Abhumans and the Corsairs today. Small-scale participatory governance is stuff like the apellas and moots that Game 1 has touched on. Those are the examples the MC would be drawing on if they wanted to try to prevent a new tyranny through moves in a democratic direction.

This is going to be one of the big roadblocks to democratic reform in the gameworld; as noted, literacy is more like 15%.

15 Likes
1003

Sure would be a shame if some rebel Shayardenes were to get control of some of those waterways. Will that be a Game 3 thing?

8 Likes
1004

Our Dutch “golden age” came really close though. Still not 100% but close, maybe 85% of the way there.

5 Likes
1005

Can you tell me how far you can go with small republics and empires spanning entire realms with long-distance transportation and communications, including mass communication, secured by Theurgy?

Also, I think it depends on the meaning of the word “night watchman state”. I used it in the sense of liberal nations from the early modern period to the 19th century. With that in mind, could you tell me again?

3 Likes
1006

Game 3 will see the possibility to cause some big disruptions, and by Game 4 partial takeovers should be possible.

Not in detail, I’m afraid – not until we get there and see. There’ll be a lot that I discover and pin down in the process of turning my outline into a full fledged story.

Reinstating rule of law is going to be the main preoccupation of state-builders in the wake of an imperial collapse. An MC that experiences early success in this will have the choice of how much their government’s policies are going to aim at mercantilist goals (e.g. boosting domestic producers through trade restrictions) versus more physiocratic ones (e.g. allowing trade on any terms). There may well be a Corn Laws style confrontation between farmers (yeomen/aristoi, depending on your land reform policies) and merchants/consumers (including most of your urban population). But with mass urbanization and industralization already kick-started early by Theurgy, I’m not sure there will be a golden age of laissez-faire quite like the one in our world, before the demands for more interventionist policies become irresistible.

I should note that this shouldn’t make democracy flat-out impossible; India had 18% literacy at independence. But it would compound the challenges you’ll already face.

13 Likes
1007

So this is an interesting thread to pull because in Hegemony foodstuff production exists within a command economy. I expect this must be an inherent feature because producing blood is a state secret, the aetherial blood product is a precious commodity (perhaps the most precious), and it is the primary agricultural input. The Hegemony already rigorously controls food production and distribution in a way GB couldn’t imagine in its wildest dreams. Choosing what and how to unwind or preserve in that system is a very rubber meet road moment for all this talk of liberal political philosophy. Millions may starve in service of preferred market design.

11 Likes
1008

Can I have a rough list or outline of what policies we can take as a whole? I may be able to give you some advice.

3 Likes