Choice of Rebels: Stormwright (XoR2 WIP)

I feel like Stormwright is way less interactive than Uprising.

Before joining the village/phyle/nobody, there are only 4 mechanical choices:
(1) whether you injure yourself or your companion at various points, (2) whether you use Theurgy on a Xaos-beast, (3) whether you call Veorn a crab, and (4) whether you (accidentally or intentionally) reveal your identity (which does not have clear effects). Of these, only #4 involves trade-offs. Additionally, all the paths are different versions of the same theme. These 2 factors combined make this section a repetitive slog.

The village/phyle are enjoyable enough, but feel a little gamey, especially in replays.

The part between meeting Cerlota and the arrival in Sojourn is a milder mechanicless slog, especially the Theurgy lesson with Cerlota. The path where you leave Cerlota has no difference except you get more injured.

Sojourn feels slightly gamey in the same way as the village/phyle.

The Riverlands has few mechanical choices, most of which are not trade-offs.

Irduin’s intricate mechanics don’t translate to freedom of action by the player. After deciding to oppose/support the order, and choosing which class to hang out with, our actions revolve around balancing causing disunity/unity with suspicion, which is rather gamey.

The 3 “village” sections all share a theme of lacking roleplay. I think that they need more mechanical choices (choices that actually affect things) that are about the characrer’s peronality, instead of the reader’s cost-benefit analysis. Things like whether to kill Haldine or Alac, torture Alasais’ mom, etc. When I am choosing whether to risk being seen to stalk Bernete, I don’t really consider my protagonist’s opinion. As for the mechanicless parts, just add trade-offs for the replay value

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I do think it makes a bit more sense that your personality isn’t going to leave as much of a mark on Irduin while you’re operating under a false identity as, say, if you and your rebels were in the same village after taking it over.

You’re mostly going to be making those cost-benefit choices for your survival while working towards whatever goal you have in mind for Irduin.
During the sections that have yet to be coded where you’re directing your rebels’ movements I imagine your mark is going to be much more distinct-- Likely purposefully so in many cases.

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Even the cost-benefit analyses are affected by personality, which is why some protagonists would do impractical things, like ending the Gunpowder Plot without exposing the conspirator, or continuing it without knowledge from the conspirator. Whether a player judges that their character would do that DOES depend on the personality of the character, in a way that most suspicion vs unity decisions wouldn’t be.

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i Think these part dose its job very well. these section is great on first playthrough. its tense, dangerous and you really feel dangers of Xaos land. i like it narratively very much. All the above problems you say above only exist for people that do these part multiply times plus with knowing of game code. which if you ask me is not a problem at all. these part achieves what it set out to do very well. yes it is not interesting on multiply playthroughs but so what? these is important part of world building.

i think only thing village really need is for finale battle to be winnable and companion conversations i generally like these section plus dont forget part where you can go to see vigil

i think what you really want is management parts from game 1 which currently is not in game, in case of xaos lands it makes narrative sense why it is not there. and we know it will exist in irduin which should help a lot.

personally while i do like management in game 1 i have 0 problems about more linear narrative that game 2 has.

i do think irduin is too open :rofl: let me interact with more people :laughing:

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Checking in from a mountaintop where the Wifi is scarce and pricey, because I couldn’t miss the ADAT for the pun rebellion.

For anyone thinking this is something to revive, it’s worth noting that before too long we’ll be ADATing the brutal dictatorial crackdown that ended it. Good times.

Can’t wait to catch up properly on the thread when I’m back in civilization in April.

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I personaly enjoy game 2’s layout very much, and as a seriel replayer with about 10 different saves waiting to port over, i love all the different directions my characters can go.

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I like the amount of paths, but I wish there would be events like how to deal with Fedrel after he tried to kill you in Week 4 of Winter in Uprising. You could execute him brutally, cleanly, through a moot/apella, or even exile him. Your choice clearly depended on considering what your character would do, which made it extremely fun. I know that the REASON for the “consequential choice dependent on your personality” feature is for it to affect your reputation, which doesn’t matter in Stormwright, but I still wish that the personality of our character would be taken into account beyond “private opinion choices”.

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I think a big thing that will improve this is the gamgee stories. Those should have a lot more lowkey RP choices along the spine of the game, interacting with your chosen companion and shaping their personal story.

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I want to tag Sneaks so we can play a vowelless book 2 demo…

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Shaping another character’s story would add much more flavor than consequence, so it wouldn’t help. I loved choices like “how should I deal with the De Merre or the Alastors”, because they had a major effect on the gameplay while depending on personality.

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I’m a little confused what exactly it is that you’re asking for NGL.

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I want more choices with significant effects on the gameplay, where the option that the player selects depends on what the PLAYER thinks that THIS SPECIFIC CHARACTER would do. For example, when the player is forced to decide whether to kill/tie up/trust Breden, they usually choose based on what their character would do, and their choice directly affects whther Breden can be taken into the Xaos-lands, as wellcas obviously affecting future games. A bad example of this are most of Irduin’s choices, which are chosen based on unengaging risk-assesments. Another bad example are the travel sections of Stormwright generally, which are filled with the character seeing something, and then the player choosing their character’s opinion on it. To be clear, I consider influencing the growth of another character to be the latter: a flavorful but raher ignorable chore in replays

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I can somewhat agree here, and I’ll try to explain where I relate and where I don’t. I also think this comes from Stormwright telling a different kind of story; more on that later.

We make choices throughout Uprising that in broad strokes define who our protagonist is. I could share a list of every single choice I make in a playthrough of the Prologue + Chapter 1, and you could understand what kind of rebel I’m making. And several of those choices have long-lasting mechanical consequences. This comes together in the winter of Chapter 2, the great filter, where essentially every choice you make – and every choice you don’t make – embodies the protagonist’s personal rebellion. The later chapters naturally shift more into action, having already defined our character, but the overarching decisions about how and what to engage (versus Hector’s veneurs and versus the Archon’s forces) do matter to the rebellion.

For most of Uprising, the gameplay and the character/rebellion-defining choices are one and the same. The chief exception is the Horion and Linos conversation – and, functionally, Stormwright plays the same role as that conversation, scaled up – where we are shown the wider world and left to think on it. But Horion & Linos does immediately transition into the choice to free/kidnap/kill them and to become a prophet.

Whereas Stormwright has several action scenes largely divorced from character/rebellion-defining choices and that are collinear with previous choices, mainly your choice of skill. The two sections that @Vrangel_RIP focused on in the initial post (navigating the Xaos-lands after the opening escape and the conflict with the Blood Raven) are the main cases, I’d agree. But I think this is more of a multiple replay situation. The actual text of these sections is strong, and it does exactly what it’s supposed to do: show firsthand the horrors of the Xaos-lands, and there are enough horrors that it would take a few playthroughs just to see most of it. But once we stop looking and only focus on mapping out a route, it just comes down to remembering a sequence of relatively safe choices (local tour guide says: watch out for the killer eels), or short of that just not bothering because all the choices lead to a similar enough conclusion anyway.

It’s easy for players to miss the roleplay in other sections, though. That comes from us knowing this is a game. It is somewhat gamey to gain trust and influence with the village/nomads/Irduin, but that actually is a political game and our underlying choice is to play. It doesn’t, and probably shouldn’t, feel good to play a depressed survivor who just wants to rest and compromise, even if it’s a realistic outcome from being stuck with no end in sight between a nightmare land where everything might kill you and a nightmare land where magic bloodhounds and the air force are waiting to kill you as soon as you enter. But we have the choice to do so. Just pushing through and continuing to play the role of a genius leader is a character-defining act that probably doesn’t make as significant of an impact because it’s the expected default of a “game”.

This, however, I think comes from Book 2 being fundamentally different from Book 1 as a story, and I think it’s very fair for someone to be dissatisfied by that, though I don’t know if that can be reconciled. Stormwright is very much a “private opinion choice” game in my view, and I think that’s the intent and the point, unlike Uprising, which is a game where your actions embody the rebellion.

Whereas before we had power in our home region, here we are mostly alone in an unfamiliar world. The journey is about contemplation and discovery: first, the interplaying freedom and horror of the Xaos-lands that is also reflected in Cerlota sharing the secret of Theurgy; and then the experience of just how vast and different the whole world is, which is also made manifest in Baldassare and the Hegemony’s efforts to tame and control that vastness.

I think the strongest narrative ideas through Stormwright so far are the stories of change framed by the game’s self-questioning. A bloodstained protagonist choosing a less violent path. A pacifist rebel breaking down over the cost. (These are bolstered by Tamran being a great foil to rebels of every kind) The self-discovery of questioning your gender identity. A prophet becoming more or less certain of their faith. Also you’ll find a lot more anti-merchant and somewhat more anti-yeomen sentiments post-Irduin.

And even for those who don’t change at all, it’s meaningful to hold onto those beliefs. It’s all part of why I’ve previously described the story as a coming-of-age.

So this does create a disconnect between the player and the character over multiple replays. That Theurgically-built bridge is like nothing our character has ever seen before; maybe the player read about it eleven times already and it’s already normal. Our protagonist forgets every reset; we can’t, so the best we can do is try to empathise. I don’t think that’s a problem, but it’s something that’ll happen when the weight of a moment also rests on the player learning new information. It’s just that I don’t think Uprising has much of this. I’d definitely argue that so far Stormwright is a lot less replayable than its prequel, but at the same time endless replayability is hardly the goal.

All worth thinking about regardless.

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Unironically I think a lot of this is just “Stormwright isn’t finished”. It doesn’t have nearly as many flashy setpieces as Uprising despite the expanded scope, which is why I think we’re getting the expanded Sojourn content among other content to come. To me a lot of this is “wait and see”, rather than something that needs addressing immediately within existing content.

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Yeah, there’s already reference in the text to things to be added like more Ciels Gamekeep content for someone who is hanging out with the yeomen, opportunities to bond more with the travel companions in general and stuff like that.

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I must respectfully disagree, and say i prefer having these more private/inward personality choices for our characters that have no effect beyond our own perception. I have a brash helot character who is un afraid and willing to argue with people and pick the angrier options, and an aristo character who is very reserved and is absolutely terrified and depressed by everything happening. To me it makes my characters feel more human, and less like symbols

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I know this will come more into play when we’re managing the rebellion from Irduin, but I’ve also been quietly hoping for more of the action and consequence Uprising really nailed. There are already threads being laid down in Stormwright, like possibly lining up criminal contacts in Grand Shayard or setting up a sleeper cell in Irduin, which has kept the tension simmering, even as we’re hiding out. The lore reveals, especially the deep dives into theurgy, have been amazing to read and think about (I’m honestly always excited to read anything Havenstone wants to share with us)

That said, I’m really looking forward to seeing how the rebellion is playing out. What does it look like to keep the rebellion’s momentum going? How will people react as it starts expanding? That’s the part I’m most excited to explore.

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Yes, but I still dread replaying the game because I didn’t want to go through the Xaos-storm and Cerlota sections again.

I used the wrong word, I meant that my choices were random, because I often did not know what the effect of any option would be. For example, what could be the difference between talking to Heled and to Nedju?

In my case, the more a choice affects the gameplay, the better it is. Deciding that I am not the Eclect of the Angels is not that interesting when all it does is decrease my hidden devout stat. For me, the strongest narratives come from my character’s real actions. It is one thing to be upset that the nomads fight each other over the tebe, and another to refuse to join into the brawl, for example.

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I am thinking, thinking about K again. IDK why but my mind keeps coming back to them as the most interesting gamgee for how they’d interface with the setpieces of Stormwright. I talked a while ago about how Irduin must be insanely triggering for K given their history with “nice” nobles that “regret” the acts of their sadistic peers, but there are a few other beats that I think K would interface very interestingly with. In no particular order.

  • Vegetarianism. One of K’s more interesting traits, how hard they push to maintain the diet both while out in Xaos and while trying to avoid arousing suspicion in the Southriding, I think there’s actually some fertile ground here, especially in how their vegetarianism belies their great empathy (from whence their violent facade arises). Possible convo with Tamran about violence?

  • Gender. One of K’s least savory moments (and yet most psychologically interesting) is pleading with a player with an incompatible orientation, exhorting them to revolt against their sexuality as they have so much else. I honestly think there’s some very interesting ground with K as a vessel of the social revolution that can accompany emancipation, especially as it relates to sexuality and gender. They already take to skepticism with aplomb (though interestingly they also take to Syneidesis very quickly, which tells me their opposition to Xthonism is with ecclesiastic authority and not the theology itself), I can see them sucking up Nyrish gender-fuckery as well. (Sidebar: this isn’t a call to trans K per se, as interesting as such an arc could be, more just an aspect of the world I think the character would interact engagingly with. Also, callback for an MC who rejects them on sexuality grounds but transes their gender? I can see K being sulky about it, could lead to a productive conversation with them.)

  • Moderation. Irduin is, I think, the perfect place to teach K something o the value of subtlety and discretion. I don’t think they are ever going to be a pacifist or anything, but I think Irduin could serve as an excellent crucible to see K transform from backwoods firebrand to sophisticated terrorist freedom fighter. of all four gamgees, they have the most obvious path by which to grow and mature, learning to restrain their impulsive destruction in favor of the larger picture. S could, I suppose, have a mirror arc of becoming more willing to dirty their hands, but that’s less interesting to me personally. Breden’s arc I imagine will be unraveling and defining them a bit, and I have no clue what Ciels’ deal will be.

IDK, it’s late but I like putting my thoughts into writing. K is cool and slept on because everyone plays a low anarchy noble thats stans S.

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@Havenstone I’ve just played through the new chapter for the first time (about 10 years after everyone else did!) I think it’s really good. I think my one critique (that won’t be addressed by having the rebellion management sections added) was that there seemed to be a weird lack of religious reactivity. Maybe I just went down the wrong paths, but it felt weird that there was all this talk of compassion, but playing a compassionate kenon founder helot on the preserve stability path there was no way to a) try and surreptitiously convert anyone or b) talk about non-devout compassion when others were bringing it up in explicitly religious terms.

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