I don’t know if this was asked or not but what kind of cloths do the helots, nobles and other social classes wear
And not just because someone wanted to see Round 4 or whatever of us arguing about Syria and Iraq policy? 
Well, I’ve no argument with anything you’ve said here. We’ll see how close the Fallujah parallels end up being. “Those you disempower can be expected to become your most determined enemies” is definitely true.
There was a conversation on this upthread (starting around here), with the answer basically being, “I don’t have a very strong vision for it yet.”
1 Like
That was enjoyable. I still need to reply to your response on the subject of the devout/skeptical and national/cosmopolitan opposed stats however, as I’ve found myself short on time of late, and my replies to you generally take a bit more thought, and thus time, than most.
Yup. I don’t think you and I disagree on the specifics. It’s just on the possibility of managing a successful Iraqi transition, I’m more of a “the cup was half full and needed to be given to someone nimble enough not to trip and spill what was left” sort of guy while you’re a “the cup was half empty and the person carrying it was virtually guaranteed to trip and spill what was left” sort of guy.
1 Like
An excellent summary. And I look forward to your response on the stats whenever you have time.
1 Like
Does anyone know how to get the achievement
The Archimandrite’s Riddle: Guess the most dangerous doorway to Xaos. (15 points)
Go yourself or tell the person you send to bring back the two strangers on the road, talk to the priest, and one of the options will allow you to guess the most dangerous doorway to Xaos. The answer is compassion.
First of all he’d argue that apart from really young children and the mentally disabled (though mentally disabled helots are probably culled early) there are unlikely to be many “innocents” in the Hegemony as its “free” population seems rather small compared to the massive number of helots and drudges.
But in essence, yes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet and with a caste system as entrenched as the Hegemony’s is you cannot expect progress, in the form of demolishing that system, to come either cheap or easy.
That said, as the player I know full well that realising my mc’s vision will require some extremely astute judgement calls and a fair bit of luck as it entails pulling back from @Havenstone’s anarchy cliff and beginning the rebuilding at basically mere seconds before the metaphorical midnight. Whereas your mc will likely have a somewhat broader window of opportunity there.
As for the eye of the beholder, regarding my XoR character there is a quote from C.S. Lewis that might as well be attributed to one his in-universe detractors, who might view him (and his “new world order”) as “evil” later on:
_"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. _
It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
The approval of his conscience is the big point here, as my mc naturally sees himself as a true idealist, who rejects the corruption and decadence of the old Hegemony and has a genuine vision for a brighter future. He is also willing to practice what he preaches and live
Of course the irony here would be the mere fact that a potential detractor would even be allowed to make such an argument would mean that, whatever its flaws, the new world order would at least be less of a totalitarian nightmare than the Hegemony currently is, even if it merely encourages a certain amount of free thought in the name of (scientific) progress.
Then again it could also be because he doesn’t really care so much about his person as he does his vision and the latter has to be strong enough to weather a fair amount of criticism.
As far as the “survival evil” or ambition bit is concerned, my mc is probably smart enough to know that unless he utterly smashes the caste system and dis-empowers the vast majority of the current nobles he’s never going to be free enough to be allowed his pursuit of both knowledge and men, at best they’d boot him back to the backwards countryside after making him either yeoman or a very minor “noble”, either way it would be back to subsistence farming, with or without a fancy sounding title. Though the more likely outcomes by far are slave, serf or sharecropper and they’d all be followed by an “unfortunate accident” rather soon after.
That plus the fact that he loathes the church of Xthonos and the Shayardene Monarchy possibly more than the Thaumatarchy itself doesn’t leave him a whole lot of options other than total revolution, if he is to avoid a Pyrrhic victory.
3 Likes
So by your MC’s definition only “really young children” and a few “mentally disabled” are innocent? Everyone else is guilty?
Chairman Mao would be proud! 
Agreed.
CS Lewis is not without his flaws, preachiness being one of them. So it’s kind of amusing that he of all people wrote this tidbit. BTW, I couldn’t get past the first book of his Perelandra series. His Narnia series at least I could finish and enjoy, although I was quite a bit younger and far less discerning back in those days.
Vlad Tepes practiced what he preached as well by all accounts…
I know that it is your character’s hope that the new world order he envisions will be less of a totalitarian nightmare than the Hegemony, but once upon a time Lenin and Mao had similar hopes…
Those people can often be the scariest of all. It isn’t a big jump from “my life isn’t important compared to the cause” to “no one’s life is important compared to the cause”, and that can be used to justify all sorts of atrocities…
You seem to reflexively conflate the church of Xthonos in the world of XoR with churches in the real world that have persecuted gay men. From what the author has shared with us in his previous posts, I don’t think that conflation is warranted. The Church of Xthonos sounds far more broad-minded, and quite a bit more accepting. There’s no real evidence that a new Shayardene monarchy would be particularly homophobic either.
It wasn’t the Shayardene Monarchy or the Church of Xthonos that turned Shayard’s citizens into helots, it was Karagand. It wasn’t the Shayardene Monarchy or the Church of Xthonos that created the caste system that your MC so hates, it was Karagond. And it wasn’t the Shayardene Monarchy or the Church of Xthonos that brought ritual mass murder of an underclass to Shayard, it was Karagond.
5 Likes
Whereas the top brass of the Hegemony, especially its ecclesiasts most certainly do not.
It on the plus side it does mean however that my character is utterly immune to bribes with material goods and that he doesn’t like to adorn himself with the “symbols of decadence” like boots, shoes, or fancy clothes.
Only if you’re in the upper castes, as a helot being openly gay gets you disapproving looks, social ostracacisation, and Harrowed early, at the very least. With some pockets, overseen by the more radical ecclesiasts (and I have a sneaking suspicion Zebed was one of these) of actual repression because they do seem to believe that being gay is against helot nature.
Naturally my mc cares little for the vision the church of Xthonos applies to the upper, or even middle, castes.
So not exactly a ringing endorsement by the church here, where it seems that the “silent majority” is all too happy to turn a blind eye to the persecution of gay people of the lower castes by more radical factions of the church.
In any case no action, let alone any sort of punishment or justice, can be expected from the mainstream ecclesiasts to reign in this sort of behaviour from their more radical brethren.
As for the old church of Xthonos, the old Shayardene monarchy and slavery, you do know that @Havenstone has declined to answer what its original positions on things like slavery and its close derivatives like serfdom were, therefore I suspect the answers to that question are a) a big spoiler and b) I’m not going to like them.
Where it concerns the old monarchy it seems that in the economic climate of the times slavery was largely unfeasible and therefore not profitable, so it would hardly have cost them anything to outlaw it. That goes for the old church too, not caring about some dusty verses because the economic circumstances meant they’d mostly lost any relevance is not the same as categorically opposing the abominable institution.
Any new Shayardene monarchy however is going to face a very different economic and moral considerations, being made up of slave owning nobles for one and is, at the very best, not going to care about the issue (as in slavery is a local (state) issue), but is far more likely to give it a ringing endorsement, as the caste system and slavery are the bedrocks of the modern system, after all.
Needless to say that this goes even more for a “reformed” Shayardene church.
In any case my character has no intention of kowtowing to slavers and slaveholders ever again. The old monarchy and its descendants have clearly lost any rights they might once have had to rule on account of being defeated by Hera and her Thaumatarchy. So why should my mc, after he defeats the Thaumatarchy, let those people near positions of power ever again?
Well, no vision comes out of the brush with reality entirely unscathed, but those are certainly his hopes and dreams.
Yep, the potential for a “slippery slope” is certainly present here, I’m fully aware of that.
The problem is that reversing or abolishing any of these things is going to be a bit more difficult than just defeating the Karagond Thaumatarchy and occupying Karagond itself. It requires abolishing the caste system and at the very least severely curtailing the Xthonic church too. Add to this the fact that the modern church of Xthonos is the primary means of enforcement of this caste system and well…
As for any new monarchy, it is almost a given that spineless nobles would choose to follow the path of least resistance here and just change how the top layers of society work, while leaving precious little unchanged at the bottom.
At the very best they might turn the former helots into sharecroppers and distinctly second class citizens. But we’ve discussed this before.
And there’s of course the fact that my mc would rather (attempt to) create a bold new future rather than revive a pale imitation of the (Shayard’s) past.
2 Likes
Just to say…
…you ain’t seen nothing yet. I think I need a brain transplant. Why did I think turning Ch 2 into a week-by-week marathon would be a good idea?
13 Likes
And yet I stand by my earlier statement that from the stat screen of this game it appears deceptively simple.
I don’t know if this is worth mentioning or not, really, but I remember earlier when I was reading through what you already have, that it struck me there was a reasonable amount of further optimization possible in your code. Like, I definitely recall there were cases where you had branches that couldn’t possibly occur because of earlier branching, and I -think- also where you had identical or near-identical branches that might have been more easily handled with a small check inside, rather than a large check outside.
Of course, ‘optimizing’ to fix those might actually make it more complicated to write, from your perspective.
Or just take more time. Sometimes a copy/paste job resulting in near-identical branches is a lot quicker to code.
But I’m very aware that my coding is miles from optimally efficient (and often pretty opaque to the outside editor), and welcome suggestions from anyone who wants to venture into it.
In particular, if you do find an impossible branch, let me know… I’d thought I’d caught and fixed all the ones that cropped up on my last randomtest, but that was a while ago, and I might have missed one then.
2 Likes
I can’t recall if me, or if someone else already reported this. This is another case where Breden is mentioned, but shouldn’t since I drove him off:
As the two strangers and their mule hurry away up the pass, you turn to your followers. They appear to trust your judgment in letting the noble go. Only Breden looks discontented. <
Along with the choices:
Ask him whether he’d have chosen differently.
Tell him to cheer up.
Ignore his qualms and head for home.<
Suggestion: I know you have it where an alternate name fills in for Breden, so you probably will do something here.
1 Like
Sure, I’ll take a look at the next release, see if I catch any.
I’ve read some of the forums for a while now but I chose to create a forum account and make this my first post because I wanted to help improve the games I liked. I absolutely love this game and I noticed what I think might be a bug. I’m not sure whether it has already been mentioned in the over 4000 preceding posts.
In summary, there is a point in one path where Ciels is described as Breden’s lover even if the main character is romancing Breden. I’m not sure if that was intentional. If the main character does have to share Breden, the main character might consider it, but would still prefer to have been made aware of the necessity in advance.
Elery eagerly takes to the hills for days with Breden’s lover Ciels, in search of routes a mule train can take under the greatest possible cover. They return with a long, enthusiastically described list of ravines, rhododendron forests, dry riverbeds, and other promising new tracks. “It’s Elery’s work, truly,” Ciels offers, grinning. “I thought I knew these woods by now, but she’s got an eye for the ways I’d never thought to pursue.”
Unsurprisingly, as Elery guides the mule trains and trackers along these better-protected routes, you overhear more and more outlaws speaking of her with admiration and gratitude.
You also:
I’ve never programmed in ChoiceScript before so I haven’t tried looking at the source code. In case it helps, I included the choices made to get to that result.
On with the story!
The Intensity of the Hegemony’s Violence to its lower castes.
“I can hide you.”
“He ran that way!” I waved my finger toward a different hill.
“My family is noble! We’re cousins to the aristarchs of the district!”
“… daughter.”
“Plektoi.”
“He needed my help! Mother said… always help those in need…”
…I headed back up to the woods, to see if I could find any trace of the helot.
“Joana, naturally.” The aging helot who maintains my family’s groves is very dear to me, if not to my father.
…he was. Lean and sun-parched from field work, of course, but his smile and confident stance were strangely charming.
Our family didn’t adopt Karagond names, we stayed with the old ways.
Alya.
Our family was noble before the Conquest, and we did not take a Karagond family name.
de Serin
“…was brutally slaughtered…”
That was when I knew I had to see him again and keep talking.
All the ways that helots are treated as less than human – above all the harvest of their blood in the Harrowing.
Yes: I sincerely care about the helotry.
“There must be some way to keep the Wards up and Xaos at bay without murdering thousands of people.”
The Hegemony’s brutal disregard for the rights of the nobility and other free folk.
The superstitious nonsense the Ecclesiasts teach to justify the evils of Hegemony.
“Nothing like a little sedition on a summer evening, I always say.” Quelling my anxiety, I stepped into the sweltering little hut.
Sarcifer the renegade archmage.
Encyclopedic knowledge and reasoning skills.
I actually ran up to my father and clutched at his arm, desperate to stop him from driving away my only friend.
So I started to teach them.
Swordplay and combat
…kindled my own, against the Hegemony.
I swore that when he needed me most, I’d be ready.
So I waited until morning for a daylight experiment in the woods.
I need to stop this Harrowing at any cost.
bite down on my hand to draw blood for my second-ever experiment in Theurgy.
I levitate Chirex off her platform.
We should try to take them alive and try them for their crimes before we execute them. We must maintain order, or we’re no more than a violent rabble.
I didn’t kill those helots, and I can’t bring them back. If their blood could help my cause, I’d use it.
I take the phials.
He has a point. We shouldn’t punish the Alastors as severely as the Theurges.
“To the woods, quickly. We’ll make no plans where unfriendly ears might overhear us.”
“We’ll fight them as long as we’ve got breath in our bodies.”
“Radmar!” I exclaim gladly. “We’d feared the worst.”
“Why wasn’t I invited to the meeting?”
“Why weren’t you up at the shack with the others?”
“How do you think the Hegemony knew where to find them?”
“So who do you think could have betrayed you?”
I just stare at him, the doubts obvious in my eyes.
“No, I don’t. You’re one of the few I would trust.”
“…and we will replace his tyranny with a new, just order.”
“It can wait until dawn.”
I gently remind Zvad that I’ve asked people to stop calling me kuria.
Breden, because of his charisma, quick wits, and natural leadership skills.
Koine – the Hegemonic common tongue. Not all of your outlaws are Shayardene, after all.
It doesn’t help that I’ve been trying to avoid resorting to outright brigandage.
I’ll target Hegemonic institutions, but not Shayardene nobles and merchants.
Work with local merchants to smuggle goods over the Whendward Pass. (16 bandits)
There has to be a way to work with merchants for mutual profit. Let’s go talk to Alaine Leybridge.
Apologize to Alaine.
Rob the Hegemony’s tax collector for our district. (40 bandits)
Yes.
Try to tap into the merchant network.
I spare them all.
Toss them some coin, grinning, and say, “The Thaumatarch wishes to make amends for his earlier thefts.”
Attack small Alastor garrisons in nearby towns. (25 bandits)
Yes – we need to keep up the rebellion’s momentum if we’re going to draw support.
I pull out a phial of blood, hoping I can make a Change before the Alastors overrun me.
I enhance the sharpness of my bandits’ blades.
No – we want to be clear that this was rebellion, not just banditry.
Try to get sympathetic helots to give us money or food. (10 bandits)
But then I realize that’s the worst idea ever. My father, an ambassador to the helotry?
Bring Breden, and keep a close eye on him.
Raid the nearest temples and monasteries of Xthonos. (15 bandits)
Yes.
No – he’s a devout follower of the Angels, and I don’t want the band drawn deeper into the Ecclesiasts’ religion.
Let’s see how the Ecclesiast and her followers respond to a miracle of Theurgy.
…draw a blade across my palm.
I cause every fire in the Naos to blaze up brightly.
“Give it no Karagond name. This is the old Wisardry, priest, of which the Hegemony knows nothing.”
Yes. I pull out a blood phial.
I increase the heat as well as the light from the fires, setting the Naos ablaze.
You have other ideas for how to use your followers’ time that won’t put their lives at risk.
Sabotage the Harrowers in nearby towns. (10 able-bodied, 10 others)
Yes.
I tell the raiding parties to douse the Harrowers in oil and set them on fire.
Set traps on the approaches to our favorite camps to deter attackers. (6 able-bodied, 8 others)
Travel through helot camps to spread the word of our rebellion. (all remaining)
Pay a doctor to come treat the band. (12 silver)
Pay someone to come train the band in using their captured swords and spears. (76 silver)
I watch them curiously, trying to guess what they’re talking about.
Ask if she’ll join your band – for the sake of her friendship with Zvad.
Distribute silver to the helots in the nearby farm country.
84
Buy ale, beef, and cheese for a grand feast to celebrate our survival. (10 silver)
My goal is to free all four provinces, including Wiendrj, from the Thaumatarch’s tyranny.
“All right. Let’s see how well you dance.”
“I had my own secret motives,” and kiss him.
I invite Breden back to my tent.
Save my remaining silver.
No – I trust Breden.
Cut in, explaining why I’ll test both old and young helots.
“We don’t measure victory by how many people we kill, Kala.”
the temptation of a follower who is infatuated with me.
Hmmm. I want to see these travelers myself.
“Any sign of Theurgy?”
“Any guesses as to who they are?”
Keep their bows at their sides, while I ask the strangers what business brings them to Whendward.
I bark, “Arrows down, Kala! Did you hear me say otherwise?”
I lift an eyebrow silently, waiting for her to explain herself.
“You thought it best to lie to us, kurios Leilatou?”
“Why is the Archon’s cousin going to Szeric?”
“What does the Alastor Strategos hold against you, kurios?”
I frown. “You’re awfully free with your tongue around this Ecclesiast.”
“So you’re an enemy of the Alastors, just as we are? How very convenient.”
“Kurios, there are many things I’d like to discuss with you. Please accept the hospitality of the Whendward Band.”
I’ll ask Zvad to protect them.
“No, father. He’ll enjoy our hospitality, answer some questions… and in a day or two, he’ll be on his way.”
I’m jovial with them all evening.
I glance at the helots who are pretending not to listen. "I wonder what our orchard-keepers would say if they heard a
diseased branch try to blame its fruit?"
Pragmatic outlaw.
Horion.
“You actually believe Strategos Nomiki would pursue you into Wiendrj?”
“Tell me more about yourself, kurios Horion.”
“What sort of preoccupations do you pursue?”
“Tell me of your cousin the Archon.”
“Tell me more about where you’re going, and why.”
“What do you make of our rebellion?”
“We’ll end Harrowing.”
“We’ll find another way to fend Xaos off.”
“That’s madness. Barely armed, against Xaos-beasts?”
“A new Ward-wall, you say? How high?”
“What were the Xaos-lands like?”
“And the Storms?”
“Did you go back in when the Storm passed?”
“And yet… there must be a way to protect ourselves without sacrificing helots.”
“Never heard of her. But it sounds plainly true.”
“Because of the skills I was born with. Not my noble blood.”
“I’ll free all the lands currently in Karagon’s thrall, and lead as many as will follow me.”
“What next, then, kurios?”
I explain all my experiences in depth and show him the scroll.
“Why hasn’t Strategos Nomiki already disposed of your master?”
“I’m asking you.”
“Tell me more about your master Horion.”
“What manner of philosophy so occupies kurios Horion?”
I steer back to other topics.
“Tell me more about where you’re going, and why.”
“Tell me about yourself, Ecclesiast.”
“What do you make of our rebellion?”
I’ll have a guess.
“Ambition?”
“Carnal passion?”
“Give me a hint.”
compassion
“A priest admits that the sacred Order of the Hegemony has wrongs?”
“Do you have any other advice to offer, Ecclesiast?”
Despite my skepticism, I give the offer a moment of serious consideration.
No – I don’t want to meddle with religion at all.
I offer them a place in the band.
I grudgingly accept that they won’t join the band.
I release them.
We got unlucky. Cousin Hector’s an excellent hunter, and he picked up our trail.
The intense dislike born of Hector’s demeaning attitude and casual cruelties.
We hit back at the wealth of House Keriatou.
“So it’s a poor plan, then.”
We’ll protect ourselves better. I don’t want Hector to have any chance to do this again.
“Hector wants us to come looking for him. He thinks he’ll bleed us more that way – and he’s right.”
Send Elery Skinner out to judge the terrain and find new, safer routes.
8 Likes
Wow. How long did it take you to write that?
Wow if there is bug OP will be able to find not only where the bug is but the exact byte in a short while
1 Like
are the traps that you can set up like spike falls and ones that if you trip a wire will spring up and impale you
This is the first time I’ve heard of anybody say anything about Admiral John Paul Jones in a long time
1 Like