You know, it occurs to me that I’m not quite sure why use of theurgy penalizes your relationship with the priesthood so severely. I suppose it’s a problem with the conflict between the true nature of magic in the setting and the pronouncements the clergy make about it. In the discussion you can have with Linos, there certainly seems to be the suggestion that even otherwise-loyal priests know that ‘theurgy’ as such isn’t actually limited to the righteous, and so it seems like it should follow that they would also know your use of it doesn’t signify trafficking with devils.
If anything, the popular, religious perception seems like it would have a bigger impact on the little folk who might genuinely believe it - probably helots, maybe merchants, probably not the aristocracy. I don’t know, though.
That’s kind of what I mean, though - from what Linos says, the priesthood are really the best-placed group to know that the distinction between theurgy and goety is imaginary. Or at the very least…hm. How do I put it. They should know that the simple practice of magic is not sufficient to tell whether theurgy or goety is being done. I’m sure the use of magic predates the current political order, which means no one educated for priesthood could be fool enough to think that being an agent of that order is what separates the angels from the devils, in terms of magic.
edit: Though, argh, I don’t know. I’m reconsidering. If they truly believe in the justness of the current order for whatever reason - particularly if they believe that it’s supported by the angels - then it could also follow that anyone who opposes that order is necessarily opposing the angels as well, consciously or not, and then that any magic to which they would have access would have to be the goetic kind. A magic-using rebel would then necessarily be consciously evil, rather than merely misguided. This is of the priesthood who maintains the “theurgy is angelic” conceit, of course, which wouldn’t be all of them, but could plausibly be some. So…yes, the logic can work…
Still, -50 seems like it might be a bit excessive, for all that. It’s rough going, raising credibility with everyone but helots.
Why is everyone so paranoid about the lannconiers? They’re probably all dead already amd you.can just claim to be a hidden sion of the lanconniers, having changed your last name for safety. I mean, who can really say you arnt? And if they are still alive and claim you pretender, how could they even prove themselves as being legit and not some rag tag usurpers. Lol the irony there would be priceless if they actually were fake haha.
They are an apperatus of the hegemony. The reason you are an abomination to the established church has very little to do with faith, for the leadership at least, just one of that same institution’s rebels has no qualms in proclaiming you a prophet. It’s not about faith for them it’s about power.
Eh, that’s not particularly compelling. They are presently (largely) an apparatus of the hegemony, just as much of the aristocracy and even, perhaps, a sizable portion of the merchant class is, but the religion predates it and would exist without it, without necessarily that tremendous of a change; a threat to the hegemony is not inherently a threat to the church any more than it is inherently a threat to the aristocracy. Moreover, it doesn’t explain the significant negative reaction to magic use specifically; that explanation has to be rooted in faith, as that’s what distinguishes the priesthood (and their opinions of you) from the other strata of society.
I suppose it boils down to the faith’s basis in a supernatural battle between order and chaos that governs all life. A self-taught thruge is acquiring their abilities in an unordered manner and thus must consorting with xoas. Those powers then make the individual as powerful as a member of the ruling thruges upon which the tenuous order preserving all life relies and is thus a grave threat to everyone and everything, even order itself.
Well, I don’t think being self-taught really has anything to do with it; scarcely anyone knows HOW you get your abilities, after all, so no such judgement would be possible. As I said above, though, I do think the significance of magic arrayed against the present order is fairly relevant, for the members of the priesthood who sincerely believe that the present order is divinely ordained, and who also believe that theurgic abilities are a gift from the angels, rather than a skill. The more they have doubts about either of those, though, the less it seems like they should be concerned about your use of magic from a theological standpoint.
Though this does open up certain obvious questions about how magic is even taught, normally. How promising candidates are identified, and the skills transmitted, without the truth of its rather secular nature being more widely known.
The Hegemony has been in power for centuries and I’m sure the party line is “only we can anoint a theruge and ensure their powers originate from the angles. Anyone else is a servant of Xaos.” I don’t think it is hard to understand that most people could believe that particularly when the result of someone picking-up therugy in another way has always resulted in societal chaos.
No doubt that is what the hegemonic line would be, but that line doesn’t necessarily match up precisely to what the priests would think. There’s also a certain inherent contradiction in it, as stated; unless one believes that the angels move at the beck and call of hegemony officials, the actual acquisition of magical power cannot possibly be directly under their control.
The vast majority of priests don’t know how the (blood) sausage is made when it comes to Theurgy. They know what their ecclesiastical superiors tell them: Theurges are chosen by the Angels, anyone else who uses magic must have gotten it from dark powers and is thus a Goete. Devout priests are likely to believe this; skeptical priests may have guessed at the idea that Theurgy has no morality except as its user decides, but they’re going to say otherwise.
Theurges, incidentally, know that Theurgy is a skill, and I imagine they’re not likely to subscribe to a literal interpretation of the idea that Goetes get their powers from Xaos - but that doesn’t mean that a Theurge can’t be devout, and a Theurge is still likely to interpret someone practicing outside of the system as a Goete. After all, enemy mages are still serving as soldiers of Xaos, whether or not they’re consciously making pacts with dark powers.
From what we have seen so far the Ecclesiasts aren’t theruges themselves and even the leader of the Naos is unable to dispute your claim that your powers are divine rather than demonic. I suspect the majority of the clergy are largely ignorant of the process of becoming a theruge. At the Harrowing we see that the Xebed serves the theruges and in terms on the order of society they are dominate temporally and otherwise.
“Those of us who accompany our noble masters to the Court of Shayard have seen enough Theurges to know full well that not all are pious or good. Some of my Ecclesia nonetheless sincerely believe Theurgy to be a grace of the Angels, bestowed upon unworthy as well as worthy vessels. Others of us believe that if our minds were as quick as a Theurge’s, we could do all that they do.” He shrugs. “I have no wish to dabble in such Changes, myself. Even if they do not require Xaotic power, they are not the province of an Ordered mind.”
‘Theurge’ is a title given by men; what even that devout priests surely believe is that the gift of magic is bestowed either by angels or by devils, and that in the former case, they are recognized as Theurges. But as I suggested to cascat, unless the angels move at the behest of the men, the recognition must come after the gift; even for the devout, the use of magic without being a recognized Theurge cannot logically be enough to conclude that one is a Goete. One must have another foundation on which to conclude that the individual trafficked in chaos for their powers.
A sincere belief in the divinity of the current order, of course, can be such a foundation.
Mm. It’s his response when you ask him whether all priests knowingly lie to the laity, though. An answer on behalf of a few like-minded colleagues wouldn’t quite fit, for a number of reasons.
In any case, I think we’ve likely covered about all that can be said on the subject, short of Havenstone himself weighing in.
Precisely. The Thaumatarch and the Nine are Eclect. They are the voice and hands of the Angels in the world. When they choose a new Theurge, that choice is the revealed will of the Angels, decreed ex cathedra.
If you take the order of Karagond to equal the order of Xthonos (as priests are supposed to), then yeah, anyone who learns theurgy without being given the power through proper channels must be getting it from Xaos.
That may be possible and (slightly) plausible for a noble MC but no free man is going to take that seriously coming from a helot.
Maybe being declared Eclect would also prevent you from making the claim under some ancient rules and consign you to a life of faith?
The more nostalgic nobles likely have records somewhere.
Again, records, if you’re playing a helot also the fact that they’re not helots, perhaps.
Though a noble MC might be able to get away with decent forgeries, I suspect that such tactics won’t help a helot simply because most free folk wouldn’t even want to believe it in the first place, in that case.
Well, maybe very high charisma might help there, perhaps on the condition you marry a “proper” aristo asap.
Anyway, we could likely ask Simon/Suzanne about all of this, but of course our characters don’t know that yet.
